Andrew Butler
Member
I'm sure I have some new 25mm black ones here you can have for postage if you like?
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Restructuring a Problem Tank
- Thread starter Tom Raffield
- Start date
Tom Raffield
Member
My purchases are slowly arriving.
Have my 4L Excel, 1L AquaSafe, pH alert and the new regulator. It does look smart!
The CO2 is arriving tomorrow and then i'm waiting on the piping.
When it comes to reattaching the CO2, should I go for a much reduced rate at first and build up over a few days? Do I need a water change first, I have added nothing to the water since the accident. My next scheduled water change is on Saturday.
Have my 4L Excel, 1L AquaSafe, pH alert and the new regulator. It does look smart!
The CO2 is arriving tomorrow and then i'm waiting on the piping.
When it comes to reattaching the CO2, should I go for a much reduced rate at first and build up over a few days? Do I need a water change first, I have added nothing to the water since the accident. My next scheduled water change is on Saturday.
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Tom Raffield
Member
Everything is here! Piping and all.
Have just done a water change having ended the tank blackout and have everything back up and running. Running the new regulator which seems so much better than my previous one. Very precise when setting working pressure and bubble count but then for £110 I would expect that.
Some of the plants looked a little pale which isn't a surprise and some of the crypts had a black edge which had developed on some leaves. Running the CO2 at a low level for a day to build it up and the new pH Alert is showing a level of 7.4 after the water change.
Will build up the courage to build the spray bar next so any suggestions as to hole diameter and spacing would be great. Just waiting on the clips to arrive and then I can get it installed.
Have just done a water change having ended the tank blackout and have everything back up and running. Running the new regulator which seems so much better than my previous one. Very precise when setting working pressure and bubble count but then for £110 I would expect that.
Some of the plants looked a little pale which isn't a surprise and some of the crypts had a black edge which had developed on some leaves. Running the CO2 at a low level for a day to build it up and the new pH Alert is showing a level of 7.4 after the water change.
Will build up the courage to build the spray bar next so any suggestions as to hole diameter and spacing would be great. Just waiting on the clips to arrive and then I can get it installed.
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Andrew Butler
Member
I know you're running a Fluval FX4 but I'm unsure of the supplied hose dimensions which is what you want to base things on.
For now as an example if we base it on the 25mm PVC pipe you have brought; that will probably have an internal diameter of around 21mm.
Back to basic maths; we need the area of the pipe and the formula for that is Pi times the radius squared - if you google area of circle google will pull you a calculator up which makes things nice and easy.
In this case the radius is 10.5mm (half the diameter) and the area of the circle is 346.36 which is what we want the area of the holes to match in the spraybar.
We will assume your spraybar is 1m long between fittings for now.
If we look at the area of a 3mm circle that is 7.07 which would mean you would need 49 holes to match the area of the 21mm
If we want to divide these holes up evenly we can divide our 1m length by 50 (number of holes +1 for the ends) which conveniently this gives us spacings of 20mm between hole centres and 10mm at either end.
Does this make sense to you?
49 holes may sound a lot or spacings of 20mm too close but I have holes around 16mm apart and I don't think it looks too busy.
I think a hole around 3mm makes a nice size but this is just my opinion.
To make it easy if you get it all assembled dry, without the holes and get the measurements between the fittings it's a simple case of dividing the holes evenly.
Any questions or help needed just ask.
Tom Raffield
Member
Hi all,
With everything now here I am ready to make and test a spray bar. Thanks to everyone for their advice so far.
One question remains: will my 25mm piping (21mm internal) be too small to cope with the Fluval FX4? The Fluval tubing has an internal diameter of 28mm. Whilst this sounds a small difference I have been advised that the difference in area of each pipe's cross section could cause a problem for flow rate from the FX4? Or worse still, could it cause problems with backflow or damage the filter? Has anyone got any final advice or suggestions before I commence a build? I was planning to follow Zeus' suggestion and feed the bar from the left of the tank, attaching to the Fluval tubing directly. I have all the components from Zeus' build but am happy to buy the odd additional piece (or new pieces) if required. Thanks in advance.
With everything now here I am ready to make and test a spray bar. Thanks to everyone for their advice so far.
One question remains: will my 25mm piping (21mm internal) be too small to cope with the Fluval FX4? The Fluval tubing has an internal diameter of 28mm. Whilst this sounds a small difference I have been advised that the difference in area of each pipe's cross section could cause a problem for flow rate from the FX4? Or worse still, could it cause problems with backflow or damage the filter? Has anyone got any final advice or suggestions before I commence a build? I was planning to follow Zeus' suggestion and feed the bar from the left of the tank, attaching to the Fluval tubing directly. I have all the components from Zeus' build but am happy to buy the odd additional piece (or new pieces) if required. Thanks in advance.
Edvet
Member
Could you manufacture a T piece on the 28 to go to 2x 25?
Andrew Butler
Member
The FX4 pump uses a 28mm internal filter pipe; area of - 615.75
The area of 21mm circle and the inside of your PVC pipe - 346.36
This means the area of the inside of your PVC pipe is only around 55% of your filter pipe which I think you will agree is quite a restriction and from the experience I have had will most likely cause quite a restriction on your filter and flow.
The filter flow rate of the FX4 is advertised as 1700 LPH
I have Fluval G6 filters which use a 16mm internal filter pipe; area of - 201.06
I tried using a 16mm pvc pipe so the hose barbs worked which have the internal dimension of 13mm and area of - 132.73
You can see this is again only around 55% of the G6 filter pipework.
The Fluval G6 filter has a graph on screen showing the rate of flow and no matter the amount of holes I drilled in the 16mm PVC I could not get flow much beyond half so I changed the pipe to 17.5mm internal which has given me more than enough area and no problem since.
The filter flow rate of the Fluval G6 is advertised as 1000 LPH so a lot less than your FX4.
Tom Raffield
Member
Would something like a 32mm PVC pipe do the job instead? https://www.aquariumplumbing.co.uk/list-pondplumbing.asp?ProdGrp2=700 With a simple end cap? Hopefully it would attach to the Fluval tubing using the existing pieces on the filter.
Andrew Butler
Member
Hopefully other people have an opinion too; but the simple way to see if the 25mm pipe impedes your original filter tubing is to time how long it takes to fill a bucket with/without a piece of 25mm tubing attached to the end.
If it's the same then there shouldn't be a problem but if not then maybe it is worth looking at a bigger pipe.
IF you were to go bigger on the pipe then you could look towards 32mm solvent weld waste pipe as it comes in black so might look neater - just my opinion though.
Andrew
If it's the same then there shouldn't be a problem but if not then maybe it is worth looking at a bigger pipe.
32mm 10 Bar PVC pipe would have a wall thickness around 1.8mm so internal would give you around 28.4mm which is as big as your filters tubing.
Unsure quite what pieces you mean on the filter or how you would do this but IF you were to go bigger then there are many options
IF you were to go bigger on the pipe then you could look towards 32mm solvent weld waste pipe as it comes in black so might look neater - just my opinion though.
Andrew
Tom Raffield
Member
Photo Update:
I have everything I need to build the spray bar and with Andrew's help I will be doing this next week as I am away for a week on Monday.
The plant photos clearly show the state of the leaves and as I am now dosing excessive ferts, have a limited photoperiod of 5 hours and good tank maintenance routines I assume this must, must, must be a CO2 issue. Primarily circulation and this is where I hope the spray bar will be the final piece of the puzzle.
It appears to me that new growth starts of a nice green colour (see photo) but then within a matter of days/weeks starts to take on the appearance of the other leaves shown in the photos. The main issues are the 'orange' mottled appearance of the leaves, the black edging and flecking on some leaves which then appears to cause the edges to die and the generally limited growth of the tank compared to what it was when setup almost 2 years ago. I am aware that some plants simply don't take in certain tanks but I would hope 'easy' plants would do well in a tank such as mine. Perhaps I need to purchase new plants when the spray bar goes in and try some different ones. Perhaps I need more fish? With so few in the tank the usual waste which would feed the plants must be very limited?
Does anyone have any further thoughts on the plant issues. I will of course update again as the spray bar is made and fitted!
I have everything I need to build the spray bar and with Andrew's help I will be doing this next week as I am away for a week on Monday.
The plant photos clearly show the state of the leaves and as I am now dosing excessive ferts, have a limited photoperiod of 5 hours and good tank maintenance routines I assume this must, must, must be a CO2 issue. Primarily circulation and this is where I hope the spray bar will be the final piece of the puzzle.
It appears to me that new growth starts of a nice green colour (see photo) but then within a matter of days/weeks starts to take on the appearance of the other leaves shown in the photos. The main issues are the 'orange' mottled appearance of the leaves, the black edging and flecking on some leaves which then appears to cause the edges to die and the generally limited growth of the tank compared to what it was when setup almost 2 years ago. I am aware that some plants simply don't take in certain tanks but I would hope 'easy' plants would do well in a tank such as mine. Perhaps I need to purchase new plants when the spray bar goes in and try some different ones. Perhaps I need more fish? With so few in the tank the usual waste which would feed the plants must be very limited?
Does anyone have any further thoughts on the plant issues. I will of course update again as the spray bar is made and fitted!
Attachments
Tom Raffield
Member
Hi all,
As no one has mentioned anything about the photos, would someone be kind enough to comment on this water quality report? I am no expert but, due to continuing issues with my plants I have researched the water I am using in my tank. My water company provided me with the link below. Could the actual water I am adding to my tank be causing me some problems? Thanks in advance.
https://www.waterplc.com/waterquality/L02.pdf
As no one has mentioned anything about the photos, would someone be kind enough to comment on this water quality report? I am no expert but, due to continuing issues with my plants I have researched the water I am using in my tank. My water company provided me with the link below. Could the actual water I am adding to my tank be causing me some problems? Thanks in advance.
https://www.waterplc.com/waterquality/L02.pdf
Makes no difference. You drink the water and don't die, so whatever the tap water, it will be fine for plants. Just dechlorinate if keeping fish. Job done.
Tom Raffield
Member
I always treat the water when doing my water change so thats all good. Does the hardness (or other parameters of the water) not have an impact on nutrient or CO2 availability or uptake?
Not really. Some plants may prefer softer water, some fish/shrimp spawn better in softer water, but really you should try and work with the water you have as you can then concentrate on getting other things right, namely CO2 levels, flow and distribution.
My water is rock hard, 22' Clark (320ppm) and never had an issue with plants not growing and fish no reproducing like rabbits....
Some people sometimes, possibly, more likely falsely infer, that hard water prevents their magnesium and/or iron and/or phosphorus uptake by the plants, but I have not seen any issue.
People get all worried about the "Redfield ratio" (ratio of NO3 to P) being affected by hard water, but this has well and truly been debunked, both Redfield ration and any affect of NO3 and P uptake due to hard water.
Some people seem it infer that as water is hard therefore high pH there iron "unchelates" and falls out of solution and would recommend a better chelated iron that can survive high pH. Again I have not had any issues with my AquariumPlantfood micro's. (Solufeed B). The instructions for Solufeed B say, just mix with water.
As for CO2 injection, regardless of water hardness, a 1pH drop in pH levels equates to about 30ppm CO2. eg if your water is 4 kH and pH is 7.6 then dropping pH (via CO2) to 6.6pH will be due to 30ppm CO2, similarly for 20kH and pH 8.3 dropping to 7.3 pH will be due to 30ppm CO2. (OK I read these values from a table, but generally will be the same'ish in a tank).
Tom Raffield
Member
SPRAY BAR IS COMPLETE!
I have had the bar running for almost a week now. I have lowered it by an inch from where it was in the photos.
Since the installation I have adapted my CO2 injection rates to ensure my drop checkers are green for lights on. Am really hoping the bar makes a positive difference on the plants in the tank - but who knows?!
Thanks to everyone who has helped so far. I couldn't have got to this point without your advice.
I have had the bar running for almost a week now. I have lowered it by an inch from where it was in the photos.
Since the installation I have adapted my CO2 injection rates to ensure my drop checkers are green for lights on. Am really hoping the bar makes a positive difference on the plants in the tank - but who knows?!
Thanks to everyone who has helped so far. I couldn't have got to this point without your advice.
Attachments
Andrew Butler
Member
Any update Tom?