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Reoccurring crypt melt

Conort2

Conort2

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Joined
16 Feb 2018
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Location
London
Hi

New here, however been lurking a long time.
Wonder if you guys would be able to help me. Had what I would call a mid tech tank (due to the liquid co2) setup for about six months now. However I'm not too happy with it. I seem to get pretty much continuous crypt melt. New growth is fine however older leaves pretty much seem to melt non stop. Plants this is happening on includes balansae, wendtii of various varieties, purpurea, undulata, petchii and probably more I can't think of. Seems to be more apparent/worse after water changes. I change 50percent once a week. Do you think this is too large for the crypts and would be better doing smaller more regular changes. I have always done larger changes in previous tanks and never had issues with crypts so it sure why I am having issues here. Tank is 150l, lighting is hinterfeld rgb led set to level 3, ferts are standard ei dosing and 10ml of liquid co2 daily. Could the liquid co2 be a cause or too bright lighting? Really unsure on this one if you guys could provide any assistance that would be great.

Cheers

Conor
 
My crypts didn’t like liquid carbon at all. Are you dosing straight after the water change? If so this could be why you correlate the decline in plant health with the water change. You’re probably on the money with bright lights too, I’d turn them down and reduce the liquid carbon dosing if your other plants don’t require it.


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I've also had some poor experiences with Balansae and liquid carbon. If you only have crypts in there they tend to do fine with really low light and if low enough you could get away without LC. Out of curiosity do you add any magnesium with your EI dosing?
 
It's pretty much crypts in there plus other low tech species so maybe il ease up with the liquid co2. Only thing I don't get is why the leaves are fine grow nice and large and then all of a sudden just melt. Previously crypts have always grown into large bushes for me but here they don't get a chance to as older leaves just melt. The balansae gets three leaves at most then the oldest leaf always melts.

I don't add any extra magnesium and have just ordered some as I've heard these can reduce melt, has this helped you reduce melt?
 
Sorry forgot to say, yes I do add liquid co2 after a water change but only half dose then.
 
From what I understand there is no Magnesium in UK water supplies. Lack of Magnesium tends to show up in old leaves so it won't do any harm to add some, in fact you really should. Jury's out on LC, I've seen people's tanks with crypts doing well with LC but I had the same issue as you old leaves would just dissolve and fall apart. Stopped LC things started growing back. Started again with LC and they dissolved, mainly old leaves again. I was using diy lc so can't vouch for the commercial ones. you can only try.
 
Conort2 said:
It's pretty much crypts in there plus other low tech species so maybe il ease up with the liquid co2. Only thing I don't get is why the leaves are fine grow nice and large and then all of a sudden just melt.
Click to expand...

I've also seen that the Balansae leaves have a life span if you like. They do tend to fall apart when they get older. Maybe dosing EI, LC and bright light you speed up the whole process, not sure on that one. Just eliminate one thing at a time as long as you have new plant growth you're not going to lose the plants. Try the magnesium first and see what happens after a month maybe. turn the lights down a notch and see if that helps then reduce the LC. In my case I didn't touch the lights because I was injecting co2, left it a month then started dosing again and they melted so I assumed at that the LC was to blame. No need to do half a dose on WC either, just dose the full amount daily and keep it regular.
 
There are lots of factors that can lead to crypt melt, so the above advice sounds really good.

In addition to light, liquid carbon sensitivities and fert deficiencies I would add competition.

Eg. I've witnessed continuous crypt melt like you describe, until I removed all the big greedy swords. Not a problem in an injected tank. I presume the swords were better at sequestering available co2. I imagine lots of fast growing stems could do the same.

Also it's still a new tank, as things establish the crypts will likely get steadier.

Crypts will melt with changes, even when they are a positive change. So, if new growth looks more vigorous, or a more richer colour, then welcome the melt of older 'inferior' leaves.

I like a little crypt melt :shh: It beats having to get in and trim to tidy up! :thumbup:
 
Will start adding the magnesium asap then, See if that makes a difference.

ceg4048 said:
What happens when you add a full dose after the water change?

Cheers,
Click to expand...
I only half dose after a water change as I already provide a full dose first thing that day, maybe I should just add the same amount again.

Looking at the tank now and it seems this is happening to basically every crypt species in the tank on the older leaves, albida brown seems to be the latest species. So frustrating watching them just start to fill out then melt away again and again
 
Conort2 said:
I only half dose after a water change as I already provide a full dose first thing that day, maybe I should just add the same amount again.
Click to expand...

Ahh ok, now I see why you do that. LC degrades over time in the tank but it shoudln't make that big a difference. If its a long time between the doses then you could add another full dose. If you change water a couple of hours after your initial dose putting another full dose in won't do any harm but just do the half dose. If the problem could be sensitivity to LC I wouldn't OD on it too much.

a1Matt said:
Eg. I've witnessed continuous crypt melt like you describe
Click to expand...

Do you dose liquid carbon Matt?
 
BTW, for the record I have only experienced this with Balansae. Dosed LC with other species of crypt and never experienced any issues.
 
Conort2 said:
Will start adding the magnesium asap then, See if that makes a difference.


I only half dose after a water change as I already provide a full dose first thing that day, maybe I should just add the same amount again.

Looking at the tank now and it seems this is happening to basically every crypt species in the tank on the older leaves, albida brown seems to be the latest species. So frustrating watching them just start to fill out then melt away again and again
Click to expand...


Hi,
Crypt melt, as in other melt is typically triggered by, and heavily influenced by poor CO2.
Toxicity to gluteraldahyde looks exactly like melting due to poor CO2, so it's very difficult to determine whether you are adding too much of the liquid CO2 or not adding enough.
It could be that your lights are too bright (I have no idea what Level 3 means in power output percentage or in PAR terms), generally, which causes a CO2 shortfall, or that your daily dosing of the liquid is too weak.
Typically, 2X or 3X the bottle suggested dosing is necessary, depending on the species in the tank. If there are less tolerant species you'd have to keep it on the low side and if the species are tolerant then you can dose on the high side.
Crypts generally are tolerant of glut, although there may be exceptions. It should also be dosed prior to lights on.

Everybody seems to be under the impression that crypts don't like this or that, but it's all an illusion. If crypts are melting then it's typically telling you that your CO2 is poor and so the crypt leaves will simply melt sooner than other plants.
That new leaves do not also melt is a possible "indication" that you have not reached the toxic threshold. So you need to re-examine your lighting and glut dosing strategy.

Cheers,
 
Not questioning what you're saying Clive, that makes sense. However the Balansae I had were in a co2 injected tank and old leaves always got to a certain size then start dissolving. When I stopped using LC this stopped happening, once I started adding it again same result. Now going off what Matt said even positive improvements can cause melt, so I would assume that adding LC was a positive improvement in so far more carbon was available or not depending on what you read last. Why do you think the plants would react badly to a positive improvement if the plants if lack of carbon was causing the melting?

I kept this up for a few months to make sure it wasn't a change in environment and it only solved when I stopped LC.
 
ceg4048 said:
Hi,
Crypt melt, as in other melt is typically triggered by, and heavily influenced by poor CO2.
Toxicity to gluteraldahyde looks exactly like melting due to poor CO2, so it's very difficult to determine whether you are adding too much of the liquid CO2 or not adding enough.
It could be that your lights are too bright (I have no idea what Level 3 means in power output percentage or in PAR terms), generally, which causes a CO2 shortfall, or that your daily dosing of the liquid is too weak.
Typically, 2X or 3X the bottle suggested dosing is necessary, depending on the species in the tank. If there are less tolerant species you'd have to keep it on the low side and if the species are tolerant then you can dose on the high side.
Crypts generally are tolerant of glut, although there may be exceptions. It should also be dosed prior to lights on.

Everybody seems to be under the impression that crypts don't like this or that, but it's all an illusion. If crypts are melting then it's typically telling you that your CO2 is poor and so the crypt leaves will simply melt sooner than other plants.
That new leaves do not also melt is a possible "indication" that you have not reached the toxic threshold. So you need to re-examine your lighting and glut dosing strategy.

Cheers,
Click to expand...
Hmmm, maybe rather me trying to run this tank as a sort of mid tech scape I'm thinking maybe il tone down the lights a notch. Only strange thing is even the crypts under the shade of driftwood seem to melt.
 
Try the Magnesium first mate and take it from there, you have healthy new growth so no worries there. Doesn't really matter if a plant was in the shade, if there's low carbon in the tank there's low carbon everywhere. Don't know about your light but at least you have that option in your arsenal if needs be. Going off Matts suggestion that they don't like change just change one thing at a time and stick with it for as long as possible otherwise you'll get youreslf in a situation where you don't know what worked or didn't, could be this could be that. Once you find out what works best just stick with that. Like I said Jury's out on LC, nothing definite there so don't throw the baby out with the bathwater just yet. The lighting is your all else fails silver bullet, reducing light will solve most problems and the need for carbon but right now stability is the thing to aim for.
 
Your problem could be allelopathy. Maybe a case of certain plants not agreeing to live with each other so they then try to kill one other. I did once make a thread about this interesting topic but got no replys back, which is a shame.
 
That would be nigh on impossible to prove I would say mate. There's infinite variables to take into account and no exact way eliminating them. I think allelopathy does without doubt occur in an aquarium in so far as they are all competing for the same light, co2 and nutrients. We're not even sure at this point whether certain plants here don't like LC or other parameters are at play. I'll guarantee as soon as you say a certain plant doesn't like LC someone else will pop up and say mine thrive on it. Even just in this post I haven't has any issue with any crypt other than Balansae so already there is conflicting results. Scale that up with all the plants and conditions possible and it's a minefield.
 
Just a thought check your tank temperature - I keep mine at higher temps. for discus with crypts but in summer with the warmer weather they melted but came back ok from the roots. Also ensure you aren't dosing liquid CO2 above the recommended level as I had a few Crypt leaves melt a little when I overdosed slightly (no other plants were affected).
 
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