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Re-scaping my 200l tank

Hi mate,
It's entirely possible that the dirt you describe is actually one of the 10,000 species of diatomic algae. Also, it's entirely possible that the reason for the diatom bloom is the light increase from 30% to 40%.

When you plants are exhibiting poor growth performance lighting should always be at the very bottom of the list of possible causes. At the very top of the list should always be CO2, then fertilizer, followed by flow/distribution.

Additionally, one of the many reasons that plants turn red is that hobbyists pummel them with too much light and the plant produces pigments in response to the bombardment to reflect the light away from the leaf in order to protect it from radiation poisoning. Up to a certain point the effect, for us, is one of aesthetics as we like to see the interesting colors, but it is not always a good thing. Therefore, red plants do not "like" lots of light. If the plant is red by design then it normally needs more CO2 than green plants. You really need to step away from the whole light loving Klingon megawatt mentality because this causes nothing but grief.

Didn't you just have a CO2 problem which caused melting? And then you increased the light, which causes a CO2 demand increase? Not good mate. CO2 grows plants. There is absolutely no such thing as "light loving" plants. Only Klingons believe that.

Do more water changes and when you do, ensure that they are as large as possible. Using your fingers, preen and clean the leaves, rubbing them to dislodge the slimy film coating the leaves. The mass of plant tissue that you have in the tank is much greater than you had before, both above the substrate and BELOW. All those roots and leaves now demand more CO2 than they did before. You can reduce the plant mass above by trimming, and you can uproot the crypts and swords, cut the roots back to within a few inches and replant to control the plant mass below the substrate. This will help to reduce the CO2 demand. Definitely clean the filter.

Fix your CO2 as described above using a combination of injection rate increase and liquid carbon if possible. When CO2 is fixed you will see a performance boost.

Cheers,
 
Thanks Clive. I think you are right - as always, good balanced advice that brings us back on the right track!

I've cleaned the filter and dropped the light back to 30% and increased the CO2 a notch. Will review over the next week.

Thanks
Paul
 
OK, so no algae bloom and all appears ok. But an update on plant growth reveals I'm still not quite 'there'!

So some plants are doing well - the Sagittaria, the Hygrophilia, the Bacopa, the Amazon swords and the Crypts. But others, such as the Hair Grass, the HC (which all came out and died), the Didiplis Diandra, the Ludwiga Repens and the Rotala Macandra (I think that's what it was) and the Rotala Wallichii (again, I think) have all struggled.

The other update is that some of the plants at the back right (behind bog wood) and including the lower Hygrophilia has spots and holes on leaves. Now, is this due to CO2 or Ferts deficiency? I am assuming the former. And I am also assuming it is because of where they are and the various rocks and wood and plants affecting flow to the back. Not overly worried because they grew in front then surely, this is to be expected?

The drop checker appears right colour still and ferts still following the James' Planted tank formula.

So, do I just keep increasing the CO2? Do I need to reduce light still further (still at 30% of the 4 grobeams)? Or do I need to remove all decorations of rock and wood to ensure perfect flow? (!)

I seem to be able to grow some plants well and not others. I appear to have now got some stability to the parameters (I admit I had some problems, documented above, only a couple of weeks ago). So I seem to have cracked the algae issues I had several months ago and before the re-scape and clear up. But I still don't be able to grow all plants. Even hair grass! is this because the flow is too much? (I had read somewhere that this plant has a wide tolerance of temps and should grow fast but doesn't like high flow rates over it?)

Will try and get more pics over the wkd.
 
Yeah, the plants that you are having trouble with are all poor CO2 feeders. Without a PAR reading I cannot say with certainty that you are over the top with light, but it wouldn't hurt to drop the intensity a little more, while at the same time increasing the CO2.

Doesn't Growbeam produce a PAR chart plotted in X-Y-Z coordinates? There was a similar case a year ago, where the OP had throttled back to 20% and was still have identical problems. He lost his nerve and decided it couldn't be a light/CO2 problem because the tank looked dim. He disappeared for months chasing every other parameter. In the end he realized he needed to add more CO2. It's entirely possible to have PAR be so high that it requires toxic levels of CO2 to stay afloat. It would be nice if you could rehouse the fish, then you could really go to town with the gas.

Cheers,
 
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Thanks for the reply Clive.
I'd never considered that having CO2 drop checker at lime green might not be enough - everything I'd read seemed to suggest you get it to lime green and - hey presto! It works. But now you've pointed it out, it makes perfect sense - the more light there is the more CO2 they need and if the plants don't take it up effectively (as you suggest) then I still may not have enough CO2 going in. Unfortunately I don't have any where to house that number of fish, so for now I have dropped the light back to 25% and will monitor drop checker more carefully to see if there is any room for more CO2. But I will focus on the light for now.

I'm beginning to wish I'd stuck with conventional lighting when I started - but the Grobeams seemed so good. It turns out they must be too good! (if I have to set them to just 25%!). And with conventional lighting I may not have so many difficulties. Anyway, at least some plants are growing well and I don't have any major algae problems at the moment!

I need to sort out a FE CO2 solution really as I'm now changing the 500g bottle approx every 20-25 days whereas before it was 30 days. I have managed to find a cheap(ish) provider of the bottles but with a FE solution it would be so much better. Haven't had the time yet and I'm still not sure I can fit it in the cabinet when its all fitted up. Another minor mistake at the beginning - when I ordered the tank I asked them to make the cabinet 3-5 cm lower than they normally do as I thought it would look better. But now I struggle with my huge Fluval FX5 filter when I need to get it out to clean and I can't fit a FE under it !
 
Well, just as many people or more have difficulty using conventional lighting, and their problems are worse because they have no control of intensity, so I really think you're ahead of the game.

hudsonpd said:
everything I'd read seemed to suggest you get it to lime green and - hey presto! It works.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I know. This oversimplification is promulgated throughout The Matrix. The root cause of this is that people are mesmerized by test kits as if the kits were some kind of omniscient device, sent back throught time by an advanced Vulcan civilization. Unfortunately, the DC can only corroborate you findings. It cannot determine them. This mind control programming is precisely why I'm a militant anti-test kit activist.

A 500g cylinder is just a snack for a 200L mouth...get something bigger, and quick mate.:hungry:

Cheers,
 
How are you getting your Co2 into the tank, diffuser, reactor? I've got a 250l and cegs right 500g is not enough, also don't aim for green or yellow, aim for an increment below poisoning your fish. Dial it up day by day in small increments and when you notice unhappy fish dial it back to yesterdays level. I suspect that may have you refilling canisters with annoying regularity though!
 
Hi Tomfish,
I am injecting CO2 through an inline diffuser - the UP Atomiser - and then through a DIY spray bar across the back of the tank. Seems to work well, but you are right, as I've begun to increase CO2 further, the 500g is not enough. I need to find a solution to this fast! But with work and everything else I don't seem to get it sorted!
 
Does anybody know why my Dwarf Hair grass doesn't grow well in my main 200l tank? Is it because I have quick a high/powerful flow over it? I inject CO2 and I thought it was supposed to be fairly easy and quick to grow?
It looks ok for a while and then goes brown from the tip down, especially after I trim it, which I was doing because I'd read that encouraged it to spread faster and form a carpet. It grows OK in my nano tank, although that has less light, no CO2 injection and lower flow. It doesn't exactly grow fast but it certainly looks better than the other!

Is it temperature? My nano is 24 degrees while my 200l is about 26 degrees.

Thanks!
 
Can anyone help with my remaining frustrations?!

1) dwarf hair grass doesn't seem to grow very well? Why could this be?
2) co2 - I get through 500g bottle a fortnight - is this normal for a 200l tank?!
3) HC - cant get this to even stay down, let alone grow! This latest attempt I planted 4 pots in full I cut off the bottom of the rock wool leaving just 1 cm around the roots and then buried each one but within 2 weeks they've nearly all gone! Is this because they don't grow or the Corey's and shrimps unpick them?
4) general slow growth! Now my light is down at 20% and co2 seems to be so high, I would have hoped for higher growth rates!

One fins, question I hope someone can help with - why do people say increasing water changes can help? And maintenance - is this just to keep algae down or does it help growth rates?

Thanks!
 
Hi,
A 500g bottle of CO2 is not a serious option for a tank of that size. So you need to upgrade. If 500g lasts 2 weeks then 1 kg will possibly last a month, 2 kg possibly 5-6 weeks. Did I not mention this in post #26?

You hairgrass needs more time, more CO2 and possibly better flow. This is a slow plant. I'm not sure where you heard that it's quick. The HC suffers form the same problem of poor CO2 and flow. If you have substrate diggers in the tank then it's going to be difficult. If you want higher growth rates then you will have to increase the intensity and assume the risk. If you start getting problems then you'll need to back off.

Increasing water changes removes organic waste from the tank and keeps it clean. Plants and fish prefer clean water as biological toxins are removed from the tank. It's the same reason that you are healthier because your toilet has a flush function to remove organic waste, for example.

Cheers,
 
As always Ceg, thank you!

You did mention the co2, I know, it was just in another post somebody had said their's lasted ages in a 180l and thought I must have a leak!

Anyway, thanks for your help. Especially on the hair grass - cant remember where I heard that!
 
hudsonpd said:
You did mention the co2, I know, it was just in another post somebody had said their's lasted ages in a 180l and thought I must have a leak!
Click to expand...
It was me I have a Vision 180.

My first 2Kg FE lasted 28th Feb 2012 to 9th Nov 2012 (8 months), current one has 750gr left (in 4 months).

I use these to weigh my FE cylinder Buy Salter Air Super Slim Stainless Steel Kitchen Scale at Argos.co.uk - Your Online Shop for Kitchen scales.. Mine comes in at 5.8Kg with regulator on, dropping to 3.8Kg when empty. I also write the date and weight on side of FE so I know roughly how much is left and when likely to run out
 
I'm sooooo frustrated with this plant growing that I am so close to just giving it all up!
3 weeks ago I decided to buy a load more plants because I thought all of the advice I had received would mean I could finally crack this. No luck, I'm afraid - £30 worth of plants and now they are just about dead!

What did I do.....
Well I firstly dropper the light down to 15% and every day I notched up the CO2. One day I nearly gassed all of my fish (I did lose a couple of shrimp) so I notched it down. I am getting through 600g of CO2 every week and a half now and the fish were not looking good. But neither were the plants! I continue to have success with the Hygrophilia and the Amazon and the crypts. But the hair grass - still useless. The Bacopa was doing well but that has all but failed. And even my Giant Vallis is doing worse. So going backwards.

Last week I dropped the light down to just 13%. But still not signs of joy. The plants either show stunted growth or the new ones turn black on the stalks and float up and the leaves gradually disentegrate or fall off. Result= all £30 gone. Again!

I dose ferts. I change 50% water every week. Granted my pipes are not the cleanest.

I have been trying this for 2 years now and I am spending a fortune in plants and CO2! I am so close to either just selling the lot or swapping to lower maintenance Apisto set up.

I so so wish I had not bought LED lights now because they just seem to be impossible to get right. Unless there is some other mystery that I have not cracked - or unless ALL of my problems can be solely put down to not cleaning pipe work. Can that really be the 1 thing that causes SUCH failure? Surely, more likely light/CO2 balance? But if it is the latter, if I keep reducing the light it will dark soon! I don't really understand it as my nano with no CO2 doesn't do as bad. But that hasn't gotn LED either......

My only advice to everyone else is AVOID LED lights!!! Seriously not worth the hassle and money! Sorry TMC! At the beginning I thought they were great, but not any more!

Rant over.

Paul
 
Hi mate, sounds like your having a real rough time, sorry to say not cleaning your pipes will cause a drop in flow IME I now clean mine weekly, I've also found cleaning the filter head impellor chamber etc improves flow drastically. Also IMO one waterchange a week sometimes isn't enough I now do two a week on my 90cm sometimes 3 if I can fit them in. Hope this helps.
 
Hi Tim,

Many thanks for taking the time to reply. All advice and help is gratefully accepted at the moment. I don't think flow is my issue (even with the pipes) - since I upgraded the filter to the Fluval FX5 and built a spray bar the fish have been living in a near-washing machine cycle! I admit the back plants still may not get as much as the front (which are blown A LOT) but they do all move. Water changes - good point. I guess what I am trying to work out is - can this kind of experience (such failure of new plants dying consistently) be put down to water clarity? Or is it still a light/CO2 balance? (which I am really struggling to understand too given the amount of CO2 being pumped in and the much reduced light levels). Maybe I won't know unless I get a PAR meter from somewhere......
 
I've often wondered about adding new plants as in a new setup they require time to adapt I have to admit since upping my waterchanges they don't seem to suffer the transition as they used to. Does sound like your flow is strong enough. Maybe worth buying a few plants from members they won't go through the emmersed to submersed transition and may fare a little better ?
 
Interesting what you say about the impact of increasing your water changes helping new plants......maybe it is my water quality having a detrimental affect.
 
Tim - btw on your 90cm tank how deep is it? And what light are you using? And how much CO2 are you getting through?
 
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