Practical application of lean fertilizer dosing

[MichaelJ]

"could we get away with less by the virtue of what we pour in"?

Almost certainly it seems... It's just that we do not know exactly how much less we can get away with... What I do know is that I haven't lost a fish in ages... If this would be a plant-only tank I wouldn't hesitate for one second to explore this aspect. Also dosing NH4 compounds just makes me a little bit more careful - Yes, I am aware that with my N 2-3 ppm target, free NH3 concentration is very unlikely to become an issue given my plant mass, lower temperature (73-74 F) and somewhat acidic water (6.2-6.4 pH) ?

Cheers,
Michael

 

[plantnoobdude]

Almost certainly it seems... It's just that we do not know exactly how much less we can get away with... What I do know is that I haven't lost a fish in ages... If this would be a plant-only tank I wouldn't hesitate for one second to explore this aspect. Also dosing NH4 compounds just makes me a little bit more careful - Yes, I am aware that with my N 2-3 ppm target, free NH3 concentration is very unlikely to become an issue given my plant mass, lower temperature (73-74 F) and somewhat acidic water (6.2-6.4 pH) ?

Cheers,
Michael

2-3ppm N per week? that is very very rich for low tech, I'd start at 1ppm, just my opinion.

 

[MichaelJ]

2-3ppm N per week? that is very very rich for low tech, I'd start at 1ppm, just my opinion.

Yes per week - @plantnoobdude - I believe @Happi told me the same (1'ish ppm) earlier on - It's actually a lot closer to 2 ppm rather than 3 ppm, but I should/could probably lower that.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[John q]

If this would be a plant-only tank I wouldn't hesitate for one second to explore this aspect

This brings to light another question in regards to the practical application of lean dosing when we have critters in the tank.
I could be wrong but most of the tanks we see that successfully manage the "lean" approach seem to have a very small fish bio load.

It's something I've been pondering for a while, to me it would be impossible to chase ratios if we can't accurately tell how much N & P is being generated from the fish.

So how do we approach this conundrum in a practical sense.

 

[MichaelJ]

I could be wrong but most of the tanks we see that successfully manage the "lean" approach seem to have a very small fish bio load

Thats true... and my lean experiment tank is actually somewhat moderately stocked - definitely not low stocked.

It's something I've been pondering for a while, to me it would be impossible to chase ratios if we can't accurately tell how much N & P is being generated from the fish.

So how do we approach this conundrum in a practical sense.

Good questions, as always @John q - I guess we almost have to ignore the contribution from fish and food waste since we have zero idea what that contribution amounts to - pretty vague

Cheers,
Michael

 

[plantnoobdude]

Thats true... and my lean experiment tank is actually somewhat moderately stocked - definitely not low stocked.

I think it is just a coincidence, people experimenting with such complex dosing strategies often aren;t so interested in fish. heavy fish load shouldn't stop you from getting good results at all. in fact a couple years back Happi was recommending to feed fish heavy (Nh4+P) and dose K+micros only.

 

[LondonDragon]

If you want an example of lean dosing, how about this one (no dosing ever): I have not shared this tank for a long time, as to be honest I don't want people to copy what I am doing and fail doing it, but thought it would be an interesting throw into the twist, since you guys think we are all about dumping 10 kilos of dry salts into the tank every week

It was set up in 2010 with Oliver Knott soil (there is still a journal lurking around somewhere), and capped with sand about 6 years ago! It was original to breed Crystal shrimp, but that didn't go well at the time and was left with just a few snails and some Amanos. The Anubias you see in the tank were taken from a show tank setup by @Dan Crawford at the first Aquatics Live exhibition at Earl's Court in 2011, never trimmed and flowers quite often. Leaves on this one are over a decade old haha not many signs of any algae in this tank. I also have stems of Rotala they grow very compact with wavy leaves, there is also Moss, Fissidens, Pellia, Bobilts and some Narrow ferns (the latter two plants are 2 years old, the rest were all planted between 2011-12.
This is home to a colony of shrimp (200+) I got from Chris Lukhaup (The Shrimp King) when UKAPS attended Vivarium in Holland in 2011, this was a species caught in the wild that was not on the market, nothing fancy but to this day I still have the same colony (need to get some photos of the shrimp, this also has a breeding colony of Elephant Snails (3 years, 5 very large adults, 10-15 babies), various colours of Ramshorn snail (decade, 50+) and Trumpet snails (decade, 50+),
This is a Juwel Rekord 60 (60 liters) the original hood failed about 5-6 years ago, I purchased that light from eBay for a tenner, think it's 10w LED. It's filtered by a JBL e1500 which the return pipe squeezed to reduce the flow. I have never dosed any ferts in this tank, and I am sure the soil as long-lost its ability to provide any fertilizers.
When it comes to maintenance is pretty much non-existent, the last water change (50%) in this tank was back in September 2021, and I last cleaned the filter sometime in 2020. I have done a single 50% water change a year for the last 5-6 years. I have not cleaned the front glass in over 2 years. The only thing I do in a weekly basis is top up the tank (about 3-4 litres) and feed the shrimp and snails twice a week.
Out of the 5 tanks I still run (I have another 2 nanos that are also over a decade old lol) , this is by far the easiest tank I have to maintain

 

[aquanoobie]

The only thing I do in a weekly basis is top up the tank (about 3-4 litres) and feed the shrimp and snails twice a week.

Spectacular. Can I ask, RO or tap?

 

[MichaelJ]

If you want an example of lean dosing, how about this one (no dosing ever): I have not shared this tank for a long time, as to be honest I don't want people to copy what I am doing and fail doing it, but thought it would be an interesting throw into the twist,

I love this tank - Thanks for posting it! Look at how healthy most of those plants look... and NO FISH! and you do top off presumably when needed - which is important to point out IMHO!

Rotala you say.... A good example of the merits of lean dosing - provided by shrimp and snail waste and food, no CO2, pretty high light and not much algae to speak of as far as I can tell 👍

Cheers,
Michael

 

[LondonDragon]

Spectacular. Can I ask, RO or tap?

Straight from the tap as all my tanks, and yes top up when needed.

 

[MichaelJ]

Ok, I finally got some of the stem plants in. They are still somewhat curled up after being floating for almost a week. They came in looking pretty scrawny (sh*tty) and without roots. Just thought I would provide some pictorial evidence that I am actually doing this
(without naming names, some have suggested that I've might have been faking it let alone that I might not even own an aquarium... you know who I am talking about @Hufsa and @plantnoobdude ! ... ).... Joking aside; this is a work in progress. I weeded out a ton of plants to make room for the stems - all the floating plants are gone (there is a tiny bit of duckweed left) and there are still a bunch of crypts and Buca's left that I need to relocate to my other tank where I mostly keep shrimps and still dose rather traditionally and keep light levels low. I am currently targeting ~2 ppm of N per week with Tropica Specialized thats it (might lower that a tad). No CO2, Keeping my GH at ~4 and KH <1, temp at 73-74, pH at 6.2-6.4... still 12 hours of light per day - quite a bit higher light levels mostly due to getting rid of the floating plants, but I don't think it technically qualify as high light yet!

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Easternlethal]

feed the shrimp and snails twice a week.

Do you think that maybe the low feeding helps to keep organics low?


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[JoshP12]

So how do we approach this conundrum in a practical sense.

It’s ironic - when we think of all the negatives of EI, we glorify lean dosing.

Now we get to the nitty gritty of N/P fluctuations, substrate cleaning etc and EI seems to be the greener side!

 

[erwin123]

When it comes to maintenance is pretty much non-existent, the last water change (50%) in this tank was back in September 2021, and I last cleaned the filter sometime in 2020. I have done a single 50% water change a year for the last 5-6 years. I have not cleaned the front glass in over 2 years. The only thing I do in a weekly basis is top up the tank (about 3-4 litres) and feed the shrimp and snails twice a week.
Out of the 5 tanks I still run (I have another 2 nanos that are also over a decade old lol) , this is by far the easiest tank I have to maintain

I'm going to guess that the tank is run at low temps, 22C degrees or lower?

 

[Hanuman]

If you want an example of lean dosing, how about this one (no dosing ever): I have not shared this tank for a long time, as to be honest I don't want people to copy what I am doing and fail doing it, but thought it would be an interesting throw into the twist, since you guys think we are all about dumping 10 kilos of dry salts into the tank every week

If I may and as much as I appreciate the quality of that tank, it is far away from what people here seem to want to accomplish. The plants in your tank are all easy plants with little requirements.

I love this tank - Thanks for posting it! Look at how healthy most of those plants look... and NO FISH! and you do top off presumably when needed - which is important to point out IMHO!

🧐 Maybe I missed something but that tanks is filled with shrimps and snails which also produce a good amount of waste, and subsequently nutrients. Regardless, most of the plants are easy plants and would probably get away without any fauna. This said shrimps help with small algae and dying matter.

This is home to a colony of shrimp (200+) I got from Chris Lukhaup (The Shrimp King) when UKAPS attended Vivarium in Holland in 2011, this was a species caught in the wild that was not on the market, nothing fancy but to this day I still have the same colony (need to get some photos of the shrimp, this also has a breeding colony of Elephant Snails (3 years, 5 very large adults, 10-15 babies), various colours of Ramshorn snail (decade, 50+) and Trumpet snails (decade, 50+),

 

[MichaelJ]

If I may and as much as I appreciate the quality of that tank, it is far away from what people here seem to want to accomplish. The plants in your tank are all easy plants with little requirements.

🧐 Maybe I missed something but that tanks is filled with shrimps and snails which also produce a good amount of waste, and subsequently nutrients. Regardless, most of the plants are easy plants and would probably get away without any fauna. This said shrimps help with small algae and dying matter.

Yes I said: ... A good example of the merits of lean dosing - provided by shrimp and snail waste and food, no CO2, pretty high light and not much algae to speak of as far as I can tell 👍

 

[erwin123]

I am not sure dosing lean necessarily means you can do less WC's. I think of WC's mainly to get rid of waste - known and unknown organic waste, algae spores, pathogens etc. - for the benefit of my livestock, and to a lesser extent the plants. I do measure ORP and TDS that can be a somewhat dicy endeavor to interpret - but as long as I don't see much deviation week over week I take it that the tank is doing well and is stable.

Cheers,
Michael

I agree with that. It had been a misconception that EI users need regular water changes to remove all the excess nutrients they were dumping in - which would lead to the conclusion that if they dosed less they would need to do less waterchanges.

If the objective is fewer water changes, then maybe one can experiment with lower temperatures on the basis that low temperatures reduce metabolism / cell reproduction and thus less waste is produced? I've read that Green Aqua run their tanks at 22C, much lower than 'conventional wisdom'

 

[Hanuman]

pretty high light

Sorry but that's a 10w light! I wouldn't call that high light at all. Actually that's pretty much very low light. To that, considering the light is 5-6 years old it is safe to assume the light has lost some of its brightness making it even lower light.

 

[MichaelJ]

Sorry but that's a 10w light! I wouldn't call that high light at all. Actually that's pretty much very low light. To that, considering the light is 5-6 years old it is safe to assume the light has lost some of it's brightness making it even lower light.

All right @Hanuman , its pretty much very low light then! 👍

 

[aquanoobie]

It had been a misconception that EI users need regular water changes to remove all the excess nutrients they were dumping in - which would lead to the conclusion that if they dosed less they would need to do less waterchanges.

Is this the 30:3:30 dosings? And later going to 1/2, and then to 1/4, and then to daily lean version? There is so many variables, why?