Plants in my blackwater discus aquarium

[anewbie]

I have a blackwater aquarium with wild caught discus. The ec ranges between 28 and 33 and the ph 4.9 and 5.1 (if you trust the probe - i don't). Temp is between 81.8f and 84.8f. The tank has been setup for a bit over a year and these are some plants (some where added as recently as 6 months ago): The substrate is inert pool sand but i do add a few root tabs (maybe not enough).



This colorful sword grew quite well the first 3 or 4 months but as we can see it is not doing so well. I suspect it is extreme nutrient deficient - i did give it a couple of root tabs yesterday but i don't have much hope. I forget the exact species - but maybe hadi pearl.
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That is a lily in the back - specifically Nymphaea sp. Peru Puerto Maldonado and has been in there for a while. Not doing too badly.


That is one nice anubia - nanji maybe. You can see the new leaf looks pretty nice. I never glue my anubia or tie them - rather i just sort of put them around the drift wood. This one has latched on on its own and is now firmly attached with the roots quite deep into the wood. We could call it a bear hug.

a more recent addition around oct 1 2024 - barclay. Not sure if long term it will get enough nutrient but right now it seems like it might bloom.

Another newish addition - maybe 2 months ago - it was a s. repens tissue and it is growing quite well. I think i mentioned elsewhere the s. repens is one of those plants that like blackwater.


horrible image but crypt petchii - it was a tissue and it is doing fairly well - added around sept 1 2024.
You never know what you will find if you use a flash light - and yea i'm holding the flash light in one hand while taking the picture - still nice to see he is still alive (L239).

nice wenditti green - looks pretty healthy. I had a brown but i hate those and that one was growing a bit too fast so i pulled it a few weeks ago. For some reason i always liked teh green and greco green.


In person it looked pretty healthy but in the picture i'm wondering if the cabomba is suffering. It hasn't grown very tall - in 6 months it has stayed super low (in the 65 i have it grows like a weed with stalks over 20 inches long); again it is another plant that liked black water condition.
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I have a few other Echinodorus and while they are doing better than the red one they are all suffering... so maybe they need a richer substrate.

 

[Connswater]

Just a thought, have you tried Nymphoides hydrophylla 'Taiwan'? I assume you have a large tank. It tolerates higher temperatures, certainly up to at least 30 centigrade. The plant does appreciate some injected CO2 and needs fairly good light, but not super intense, but in terms of CO2, by no means in the high 25-30 ppm range, though it is a very greedy plant, so you would need to be generous with the root tabs. It will definitely tolerate a pH a little below <6.

It can be a pest, it will shade out other plants if allowed to grow uncontrolled. In my tank, which is only 4 foot, it tends to get to about 6 inches across at the substrate but a good 1-2 feet diameter of leaf cover in a circle pattern close to the surface, which is simply too much for me, so I do have to take the scissors quite harshly to it at times, I cut it back to substrate level every couple of months, leaving a stalk and leaf or two, alternating between the three or four specimens. I do occasionally propagate a new plant from the 'runners' which pop up about mid-water level, just gently pushed into the silver sand. But it doesn't take rough handling but quickly establishes if not overly brutalised.

I would expect Discus to attractively shelter under the leaves it produces close to the water surface, that is as thin fish, finding refuge amongst its long tubular stalks and hidden from surface predators. I have never kept Discus but my Angels took to assuming predatory stillness amongst its long stalks.

 

[anewbie]

Just a thought, have you tried Nymphoides hydrophylla 'Taiwan'? I assume you have a large tank. It tolerates higher temperatures, certainly up to at least 30 centigrade. The plant does appreciate some injected CO2 and needs fairly good light, but not super intense, but in terms of CO2, by no means in the high 25-30 ppm range, though it is a very greedy plant, so you would need to be generous with the root tabs. It will definitely tolerate a pH a little below <6.

It can be a pest, it will shade out other plants if allowed to grow uncontrolled. In my tank, which is only 4 foot, it tends to get to about 6 inches across at the substrate but a good 1-2 feet diameter of leaf cover in a circle pattern close to the surface, which is simply too much for me, so I do have to take the scissors quite harshly to it at times, I cut it back to substrate level every couple of months, leaving a stalk and leaf or two, alternating between the three or four specimens. I do occasionally propagate a new plant from the 'runners' which pop up about mid-water level, just gently pushed into the silver sand. But it doesn't take rough handling but quickly establishes if not overly brutalised.

I would expect Discus to attractively shelter under the leaves it produces close to the water surface, that is as thin fish, finding refuge amongst its long tubular stalks and hidden from surface predators. I have never kept Discus but my Angels took to assuming predatory stillness amongst its long stalks.

I don't think it is readily available here. Also i would not and will not inject co2 into this aquarium - it is actually a fish first aquarium with the wc discus. I've been told that the low ph allows the water to absorb more co2 and that is one reason why the plants do relatively well. There are other pond lily readily availalbe but i don't know enough about them to pick one or seriously consider on.

I will say the wc discus are quite skittish - so whenever something happens they dislike they retreat to the very bottom back and turn black against the black background. Currently the things they dislike is my putting a python into the aquarium and strangers walking into the room. Other than that they've been ok with my working in the room on other aquariums and similar.

This is an older picture of the full aquarium:


You can see how small the anubia is in the above picture when planted so it has grown quite a bit in a year.

and another old but more recent picture:

 

[Connswater]

Thanks for that.
Yes soft water does mean that CO2 injection doesn't have to be as vigorous to hit dissolved CO2 targets, but soft water can be as low in CO2 as very hard when other factors are in play. But I would be reluctant to run CO2 on the system as I now have seen it, you could easily create an overly acid situation.
It would be interesting to know how much CO2 is in the tank water given your setup, air operated filter, no soil under the sand etc., but I fully recognise the challenges a Discus tank presents, a friend with a very large Discus tank essentially treats his Amazon swords as disposable, he simply replaces them two or three times a year. On You Tube, Green Aqua have, or at least had, a show planted Discus tank but how practical that actually is I find it hard to know.
I definitely would suggest providing more cover for the fish, Giant Vallis might work, as a curtain along the back, if you can get it, it is pretty tough. A back rail of plants might give the fish more confidence to come forward. Counter intuitively, more hiding places often mean we see our fish more, though not always the case for Plecostomus species I fear, I've seen folks half dismantle their tanks to just spot them.
Anyway good luck.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

and another old but more recent picture:

They are lovely.

But I would be reluctant to run CO2 on the system as I now have seen it, you could easily create an overly acid situation.

I'm not a CO2 user (and never will be), or suggesting it as a <"good idea">, but it is a bit strange, when you add CO2 you depress pH, but you don't lose any alkalinity, you just have more <"Dissolved Inorganic Carbon"> in the form of dissolved CO2.

a friend with a very large Discus tank essentially treats his Amazon swords as disposable, he simply replaces them two or three times a year.

That doesn't really help with water quality, they are just the, more aesthetically pleasing, equivalent of plastic plants. You will have to try and persuade them that they would be much better off with a floating plant, like Water Lettuce (Pistia stratiotes), biotope appropriate and good in warm temperatures - <"Discus, the king of the aquarium!">.

On You Tube, Green Aqua have, or at least had, a show planted Discus tank but how practical that actually is I find it hard to know.

The late <"Larry Waybright"> (<"@apistomaster">) was an <"absolutely fantastic Discus keeper"> and he had planted tanks.

People will tell you that the Discus (Symphysodon spp.) occur in habitats without plants, but that isn't true. They are collected from habitats without plants at low water, when they are just "on hold" waiting for the water to rise. As soon as the level rises they <"disperse through the flooded forest">.



cheers Darrel

 

[Connswater]

Thanks Darrel, I have in the past suggested floating plants and even donated some Indian Fern, and advised against letting plants slowly die in water but old habits die hard, and my old mum used to say 'that if people want your advice they will ask for it, but just because they ask doesn't mean they will take advice', the phrase has stuck with me because in so many avenues of my life I have found it true.
I have never been brave enough to tackle Discus, if my tap water wasn't dissolved concrete I might be tempted, but I would want at least a 6 foot tank, a tad impractical in my home, and the prospect of CO2 and Discus makes me doubly uncomfortable.
Water lettuce with their long roots might reassure the fish, good idea.
You put a lot of effort into this site, I have appreciated it over many years even if I only got round to joining recently, retirement and all that!
Have a great day.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I have in the past suggested floating plants and even donated some Indian Fern, and advised against letting plants slowly die in water but old habits die hard, and my old mum used to say 'that if people want your advice they will ask for it, but just because they ask doesn't mean they will take advice', the phrase has stuck with me because in so many avenues of my life I have found it true.

It is <"certainly true"> of fish-keeping, you can <"lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink">.

if my tap water wasn't dissolved concrete I might be tempted, but I would want at least a 6 foot tank, a tad impractical in my home,

I've thought about it as well, but as you say not a sensible option for me either.

and the prospect of CO2 and Discus makes me doubly uncomfortable.

I just couldn't.

Water lettuce with their long roots might reassure the fish, good idea.

I really like floating plant ....

You put a lot of effort into this site, I have appreciated it over many years even if I only got round to joining recently, retirement and all that!

I like to think my advice has got better over time. UKAPS has taught me a lot. I'll be honest I'm really looking forward to retirement, my various aches and pains are really taking a toll on me now.

cheers Darrel

 

[anewbie]

The a. cripus in the picture with the discus are quite large with leaves longer than 24 inches - i do have a little frogbit but it doesn't do great in this aquarium. Still my 40B (another black water aquarium) is an absolute farm for frogbit so now and then i move some in. I think the biggest problem is that i just have to add more root tabs though i might also be a temperature issue for some of the echinodorus i have planted - they werent' amazon but mostly Echinodorus uruguayensi.

I know some species grow just fine since the e. quadricostatus has carpeted nearly the entire bottom and new leaves look very healthy. Also the barclay is a plant known to love warm water so as long as i give it enough nutrients it should do ok until the bulb hibernates.
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The aquarium is 24 inches wide and 24 inches tall so it can be a bit of a pain to do too much with it when it comes to plant. For example putting root tabs for some of the plants in the back require moving a step stool behind the tank which is a rather tight fit so i don't bother with it very often. Anyway this is where things are after a year - in another year if i remember i will update this thread and we will discover where things go - i think the passage of time is best for showing how things really change.

I will note that only one of the three species of vals i tried died out fairly quickly (heat issue?) and the one left is struggling. So not everything works by a long shot.

Here is another picture from the front - again it is a bit older but it might give you a better view of the full tank:


The major difference is the val mess on the right mostly died off and the quadricostatus has marched all the way to the right - you can see the c. petchii just below the right most discus with nothing around it but in the picture above it is completely surrounded by quadricostatus. To be honest one of these water changes i will pull some of the quad to keep the s. repens and c. petchii from being suffocated.

 

[Connswater]

Your Discus fish look stunning. Honestly, just go with what grows easily, sometimes just trial and error. High temperatures and acid conditions are problematic, but I think on balance root tabs and experimentation with floating plants will in due course produce a sheltered home for your Discus.

 

[sparkyweasel]

A back rail of plants might give the fish more confidence to come forward. Counter intuitively, more hiding places often mean we see our fish more,

I agree with this.

 

[anewbie]

I agree with this.

well i know the magic to bring them forward..... just prepare their favorite food and they all line up waiting for it 😉

 

[anewbie]

This is a mini-update since it has only been a few weeks but i wanted to point out the impact of lack of nutrients in the water; unfortunatley i just could not get my phone to focus on objects so most of the pictures i had to delete - basically about 2 1/2 weeks i added some targeted root tabs:

This shows an area with no root tabs


This show the same species with root tabs:


This is the s. repens after i pulled all the 'weeds' around it:

Some c. beckti:

Even the pothos has suffered from lack of nutrients; you can't see but it only has about 8 leaves behind the tank - in the same amount of time the one on my 120 which has tap water has about 100 leaves.

And this pictured wanted to make me throw my phone in the trash - he just stood there posing and no matter what i did the phone just refused to focus (this is a wild caught one hence the muted colors):


I had a few other pictures of echinorous that showed how they are putting out new leaves after i put root tabs around them but alas i couldn't get the precise focus i needed. In theory i should be able to manually focus but i couldn't get it to work. Maybe it is time to dig out that slr...

Oh well; probably 6 months for the next update.