Plant deficiencies and the Fe Experiment

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Do you happen to have pics showing how phosphorus deficiency looks like on your natural detection apparatus?

That is a tricky one. I'm going to say lack of growth and a slight bronzing on the oldest leaves, with the newest leaves always looking healthy, but progressively over time there being fewer and fewer healthy leaves? But that <"would be just guess work">.

Because the green algae <"Viridiplantae - Wikipedia"> don't have any internal plumbing, but <"share similar photosystems"> to the higher plants, I would expect that one of the first signs would be a diminution of green algal growth.

cheers Darrel

 

[MichaelJ]

Hi all,

That is a tricky one. I'm going to say lack of growth and a slight bronzing on the oldest leaves, with the newest leaves always looking healthy, but progressively over time there being fewer and fewer healthy leaves, but that <"would be just guess work">.

cheers Darrel

Darrel, as always, I take your word for it 🙂 I personally find it maddeningly hard to diagnose deficiencies - there are just so much overlap between all the deficiency symptoms - see chart below - yellowing leaves is one of those - leaves turns yellow when they die; no sh*t Sherlock! . Based on specific conditions we can often deduce certain deficiencies just by looking at a water report, water parameters or dosing amounts etc, but I think we very rarely are able to tell straight up what the problem is from looking at the plants only - well, I do not know if that is even possible. With terrestrial plants I think it often is.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[_Maq_]

progressively over time there being fewer and fewer healthy leaves

Similar to my general observations. When phosphorus is low, it often takes time before noticing. I hoped that Limnobium (which I've got no experience with) might be a good signal species...

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I personally find it maddeningly hard to diagnose deficiencies - there are just so much overlap between all the deficiency symptoms

Same for me, other than iron (Fe), <"I don't normally try to"> diagnose deficiencies. I just add a complete fertiliser and hopefully that gets the job done. Iron is the easy one, it causes chlorosis in new leaves (not mobile in the plant) and is much more likely in hard water.

For the mobile nutrients can use probability a little bit to assist, so the normal suspects are inorganic carbon (C), nitrogen (N) & potassium (K) (just because plants need a lot of them) and magnesium (Mg), because we don't have much in our water <"for geological reasons">. CO2 deficiency? You can get around by using a floating plant.

I always look on the sudden appearance of green algae as a sign that Liebig's limiting nutrient is no longer limiting, because "mobile" and "non-mobile" doesn't apply to green algae, they don't have any mechanisms for moving nutrients around internally, nutrient ions just diffuse through the cell wall.

........ I used to make up hydroponic growing solutions without one of the essential nutrients. These are for looking at plant deficiencies, in which case you start with RO and then add everything else plants need other than the missing element.

You have to use analytical grade salts, or otherwise you tend to get micro-element contamination. If you ignore the macro-elements, the easiest deficiency symptoms to induce are magnesium deficiency, where plants will grow with a trace amount, but show deficiency symptoms. When you add some magnesium you get an almost instant greening and growth.

We used to use <"perlite trough culture"> for these experiments, partially because the presence, or absence, and colour of green algae on the perlite surface gives you a good idea about the nutrient status of the pot........

cheers Darrel

 

[_Maq_]

Same for me, other than iron (Fe), <"I don't normally try to"> diagnose deficiencies.

Useful link, thank you.
I do have true Myriophyllum tuberculatum, and it looks fine, so far, but growing quite slowly and creating rather short leaves. In a tank where I missed to discern in time phosphorus deficiency - and pondered in vain what was the reason that Rotala macrandra looked so undernourished. *
So, until I find something better, I'll take the two named species for my P-deficiency signal plants.

*) Until then, I firmly stuck to ratio P:N = 1:16 [molar]. Probably due to slightly increased iron dosing, some phosphorus got lost. Such is my assumption, no proof. It made me to alter the ratio to 1:14. And I've adjusted the timing of iron dosing. The situation improved since then, macrandras look a little better, but still far from optimal. Not yet sure what will be my next step.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

You can get stripes with monocotyledons, this is Maize (Zea mays) <"showing longitudinal stripes"> as a result of iron (Fe) deficiency.

I think I may have created "iron deficiency" stripes, these are in Pistia stratiotes.



There were some "better" ones, but I'd already pinched those off.

cheers Darrel

 

[John q]

I think I may have created "iron deficiency" stripes, these are in Pistia stratiotes

New leaves look fine, did we correct the fe deficiency?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

New leaves look fine, did we correct the fe deficiency?

I think failed to add my ad hoc. hybrid <"Duckweed Index"> dosing, and by the time I'd noticed the Amazon Frogbit was already struggling (this is the sequence <"Frogbit taken a turn">). I added some ferts. but the Frogbit is only just recovering. It effected the Pistia less, but yesterday I noticed a lot of the older leaves were stripy.

Cheers Darrel

 

[_Maq_]

It effected the Pistia less, but yesterday I noticed a lot of the older leaves were stripy.

And what if it's not iron deficiency and the leaves are getting stripy only when growing older? Are you sure this is not the case?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

And what if it's not iron deficiency and the leaves are getting stripy only when growing older? Are you sure this is not the case?

No, I'm not, but I've never noticed them looking like this before.

Cheers Darrel

 

[keef321]

My latest update. To recall, from the 5th March to 9th May I had great success for with the iron mix of 0.021ppm FeEDDHA, 0.5ppm DTPA and 0.5ppm seachem iron. This was an improvement over the DTPA and Seachem iron only mix. My frogbit that used to stay small and melt away (literally die), grew lush 3cm green leaves, wow, what a change.

I thought as I had such an improvement by adding the FeEDDHA, then this must be the driving force. So I decided to put this to the test, and on the 9th May doubled my dose of FeEDDHA to make 0.042ppm FeEDDHA & kept the 0.5ppm seachem iron. I noticed within a week or so some of the frogbit looking a bit sad and some lighter leaves developing, and by 7th June could clearly see iron deficiency in my Pogostemon Helferi again. With this in mind, I went back to the mix of FeEDDHA, DTPA & Seachem Iron. Recovery was quick, and now my plants are starting to grow much stronger and thicker, and I am able to increase the lighting a bit to provide a much nicer form of growth with both Mottogrossene Guyana & Ludwigia Super Red.

So my thoughts now are that the mix of the different chelates seems to work best to allow the plants to take up the iron, certainly the FeEDDHA & DTPA together somehow seems to do the trick for me, but dont work as well by themselves. I am yet to remove the seachem iron from the mix to see if that makes a change. I need to take some time for my tank to settle and stabilize before another experiment.

So a bit of a question now if someone can help. I am dosing the FeEDDHA that I made myself with powder and RO water, the seachem iron & the TNC IronAT DTPA all separately. I am going away for a week, and my neighbour kindly feeds my cat and doses my tank. To make it even easier for her, could I mix the FeEDDHA, seachem iron and DTPA together, so she only has one liquid to dose for the iron? Or will the different potential chelates & water chemistry cause a problem?

Thanks
Keith

 

[Hufsa]

To make it even easier for her, could I mix the FeEDDHA, seachem iron and DTPA together, so she only has one liquid to dose for the iron? Or will the different potential chelates & water chemistry cause a problem?

You'll want to target a very specific pH of this mixture, to ensure that the Seachem Iron doesnt precipitate (too high), and that the pH doesnt go too low because the EDDHA and DTPA chelates may become unstable.
Between 4 to 4.5 should do it. Dont go below 4. Im not sure you can measure such a value accurately using a liquid aquarium test, so a decent ph probe is the better choice.
Try to acidify the solution of EDDHA and DTPA before adding Seachem Iron last. The Seachem Iron itself is somewhere between 3 - 3.5 pH (dont remember exact), so depending on concentration it may influence the final pH.

 

[keef321]

You'll want to target a very specific pH of this mixture, to ensure that the Seachem Iron doesnt precipitate (too high), and that the pH doesnt go too low because the EDDHA and DTPA chelates may become unstable.
Between 4 to 4.5 should do it. Dont go below 4. Im not sure you can measure such a value accurately using a liquid aquarium test, so a decent ph probe is the better choice.
Try to acidify the solution of EDDHA and DTPA before adding Seachem Iron last. The Seachem Iron itself is somewhere between 3 - 3.5 pH (dont remember exact), so depending on concentration it may influence the final pH.

Thanks Hufsa.
So am I right in thinking I could do the following. Make a mix of EDDHA powder & DTPA powder into the same bottle, and mix with RO, they would then be mixed at the same PH. Then dose the seachem separately? I didnt check the PH of the RO water, but the EDDHA appears to be stable. Or even with this mix, do I need to PH to be 4 - 4.5? I bought my RO water from the local fish store (that I mixed my EDDHA with), and my tap water has a very high PH &vHardness (hence the iron issues)

 

[Hufsa]

Thanks Hufsa.
So am I right in thinking I could do the following. Make a mix of EDDHA powder & DTPA powder into the same bottle, and mix with RO, they would then be mixed at the same PH. Then dose the seachem separately? I didnt check the PH of the RO water, but the EDDHA appears to be stable. Or even with this mix, do I need to PH to be 4 - 4.5? I bought my RO water from the local fish store (that I mixed my EDDHA with), and my tap water has a very high PH &vHardness (hence the iron issues)

You can mix all three in one solution, but only if you use some form of acid to lower the ph to where it needs to be. White vinegar works quite well.
Dont bother checking the ph of the RO water, its almost pure water so the ph there is not stable and mostly meaningless.
But once you have the salts in (like Fe EDDHA and Fe DTPA) you should be checking the ph and bringing it down to a lower level by adding acid.
Only then could you add some Seachem Iron into this mix.

The ph of the fertilizer only needs to be low if you want to have Seachem Iron in it (in your case), ok?
The chelates are stable from ph 4 up to like 7.5 - 10.
Seachem Iron is a liquid solution of Fe Gluconate.

This is from my notes when I was looking into this for my own mixes:

Fe Gluc pH 3.5 - 4.5 <- Seachem Iron
Fe EDDHA pH 3 - 10
Fe DTPA pH 4.0 – 7.5

As you can see the Gluconate version of Fe doesnt want to be stored in a solution higher than ph 4.5.
This is because it might "let go" of the iron and become ineffective.
But the Fe DTPA doesnt want to go lower than ph 4 for storage.
So thats what gives us the 4 - 4.5 ph target range, that we need to stay in if all three of these are going to be in the same bottle.

Does that make sense?

 

[keef321]

You can mix all three in one solution, but only if you use some form of acid to lower the ph to where it needs to be. White vinegar works quite well.
Dont bother checking the ph of the RO water, its almost pure water so the ph there is not stable and mostly meaningless.
But once you have the salts in (like Fe EDDHA and Fe DTPA) you should be checking the ph and bringing it down to a lower level by adding acid.
Only then could you add some Seachem Iron into this mix.

The ph of the fertilizer only needs to be low if you want to have Seachem Iron in it (in your case), ok?
The chelates are stable from ph 4 up to like 7.5 - 10.
Seachem Iron is a liquid solution of Fe Gluconate.

This is from my notes when I was looking into this for my own mixes:

Fe Gluc pH 3.5 - 4.5 <- Seachem Iron
Fe EDDHA pH 3 - 10
Fe DTPA pH 4.0 – 7.5

As you can see the Gluconate version of Fe doesnt want to be stored in a solution higher than ph 4.5.
This is because it might "let go" of the iron and become ineffective.
But the Fe DTPA doesnt want to go lower than ph 4 for storage.
So thats what gives us the 4 - 4.5 ph target range, that we need to stay in if all three of these are going to be in the same bottle.

Does that make sense?

Hi Hufsa,

Yes that totally makes sense, thank you for kindly explaining that to me 🙂

 

[Hufsa]

Yes that totally makes sense, thank you for kindly explaining that to me 🙂

Let me know if anything is unclear still, sometimes its not entirely easy to know where the other person is starting from, how much detail must be included and so on 😃

 

[keef321]

Latest update. My tank has been running very well on the iron mix of 0.021ppm FeEDDHA, 0.5ppm DTPA and 0.5ppm seachem iron. In addition I dose 2Hraquarist APTe /EI to full EI levels (twice the instructed dose). This has allowed me to run my Twinstar E-series light at full power, resulting in nicer growth forms.

My only issue has been with Rotala Orange Juice, which has become stunted. I have read on here and been advised that Rotala does not like heavy EI dosing, but I am really wanting to grow Rotala varieties. With this in mind I reduced my dosing to 1/2 EI Levels two weeks ago, with the ultimate aim of hitting 1/4 EI levels and adding some root tabs as required. My Frogbit (Duckweed Index) started to lose a bit of colour, but I thought this was just the plants adjusting to lower EI dosing levels. I then noticed the shrimp started to eat the Frogbit (in my experience, they only eat Frogbit when it is not healthy), followed by chlorosis / whitening of leaves within Staurogyne Repens and finally the classic iron deficiency sign of white Pogostemon Helferi leaves. But I cant imagine that this is Iron deficiency??? I am still dosing the DTPA / FeEDDHA iron, and at 1/2 EI levels the 2hraquarist APTe/EI is providing another 0.5ppm Iron. I am thinking of getting some Manganese to try out, that I can try out. I was wondering what other peoples thoughts were on this? and any guidance in Manganese dose guidance?

Thanks - Keith

 

[erwin123]

My tap water is gH 6 and I dose 0.05ppm Seachem twice a week (total weekly dose 0.1ppm) plus Tropica Specialised slightly less than the recommended dosing. I have no iron deficiency problems. 1.0ppm seems excessive even for gH 10-12 water? It makes me suspect like you do that its other traces like Mn that are lacking.

 

[keef321]

My tap water is gH 6 and I dose 0.05ppm Seachem twice a week (total weekly dose 0.1ppm) plus Tropica Specialised slightly less than the recommended dosing. I have no iron deficiency problems. 1.0ppm seems excessive even for gH 10-12 water? It makes me suspect like you do that its other traces like Mn that are lacking.

Thanks erwin123. I definitely know I have had an issue with iron in the past which is now sorted with my dosing, but as you have confirmed it looks like I also have an another issue going on due to my hard water (high GH / KH & PH). I will order some manganese.

Aqua Plants Care sells Mn 13% EDTA Chelated, I was wondering if any of the experts in this forum know if this will be suitable in my hard water? I needed the chelate to be DTPA & EDDHA to work with Fe in my water, but perhaps we don't need such a strong chelate with Mn? Perhaps you or @dw1305 might be able to shed some light on this 🙂

P.S. I also have now noticed, that the pearl weed I cut back has been struggling to grow back without the EI levels, and the light green colour disappeared in new leaves, but since dosing back up to EI levels again (and potentially increased manganese) it has coloured up, and started to grow again, and the plants have started to really pearl again.

​

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
You normally naturally get some manganese in hard water, but I don't know how much hard water effects plant uptake. I'm away at the moment, but I'll see what I can find.

Cheers Darrel