Phosphates in source water and ferts dosing

[Fluxtor]

Hi all, I've read a few posts on here about dosing ferts when there is phosphate in source water. I've had a bit of an algae bloom so decided to do some water tests and my phosphates were very high in the tank possibly getting towards 10ppm using an API test kit. I tested my tap water and they're coming out around 3-4ppm. I've just checked my water companies water report and they have phosphate at 1.3ppm. I know some of you don't believe test kits are reliable and I understand why but I guess we need something to go on?

Some information about my tank and setup

Superfish Scaper 60 with Oase Biosmaster 250 Thermal so approximately 60 litres of water. I run a 7 hour photo period with the stock superfish light that comes with the set on max and C02 comes on 1 hour before lights on and goes off 1 hour before lights off. I dose 1.5 squirts of APT 3 daily and feed once a day. Inhabitants are 9 x Lemon Tetra, 6 x Pygmy Coreys, 6 x Bumble Bee Nerites and a Inspector Snowball Plec which is about 8-9cm.

The algae is black fuzz, green hair and some string algae so a general outbreak, I had a tonne of red root floaters in the tank which were blocking out a lot of light and caused my ludwigia to melt and die so I removed about 80% of the floaters. The tank is relatively well planted and the plants are doing okay at the moment but I want to get the algae under control before the plants start really suffering.

My plan is is to just up the water changes currently but with my API test kit reading 3ppm of phosphate I'm concerned that my source water is the problem. I'm also thinking about changing my ferts to APT 1. Does this sound like a plan or is there anything else I can do to help?

Picture attached for reference.

 

[Connswater]

Those are very high readings, I would check with a different test, the Thames before it is tidal can have levels pushing towards 7 ppm but that is, I am led to believe rare. If your tap water is genuinely high in Phosphate fill a plastic bin with tap water and run a filter packed with Rowa for a week, that will give you good water to alter your tank water with. Alternatively put Rowa in the filter of the tank and stop using all macro nutrients until levels are very low, certainly below 1 ppm. Good luck.

 

[Fluxtor]

Those are very high readings, I would check with a different test, the Thames before it is tidal can have levels pushing towards 7 ppm but that is, I am led to believe rare. If your tap water is genuinely high in Phosphate fill a plastic bin with tap water and run a filter packed with Rowa for a week, that will give you good water to alter your tank water with. Alternatively put Rowa in the filter of the tank and stop using all macro nutrients until levels are very low, certainly below 1 ppm. Good luck.

Thanks. I was thinking about a phosphate remover but as you suggested wanted to try an alternative test kit to eliminate problems with the API one. I've read that they have had problems with their reagents occasionally so could be false readings! I will look into ROWA as a remover. Does it need replenishing when it gets saturated and how do you know when to change?

 

[Connswater]

Thanks. I was thinking about a phosphate remover but as you suggested wanted to try an alternative test kit to eliminate problems with the API one. I've read that they have had problems with their reagents occasionally so could be false readings! I will look into ROWA as a remover. Does it need replenishing when it gets saturated and how do you know when to change?

Can't be replenished, I test a few times a year or when I spot possible issues. I only use Rowa occasionally. I try to keep Phosphate levels somewhere around 1 ppm.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

..... I will look into ROWA as a remover. Does it need replenishing when it gets saturated and how do you know when to change?

It will remove PO4--- from the water column, personally I don't really see a problem with high phosphate levels, even if they exist.

Cheers Darrel

 

[Oldguy]

The algae is black fuzz, green hair and some string algae so a general outbreak

Treat the tank with a salicylic acid algaecide. This will check the algae and give your plants a chance to grow.
Strong plant growth no algae. Poor plant growth/plants slowly dyeing lots of algae.
A nutrient rich water column will help both to grow so tip the balance towards the higher plants.
Remember in the Estimated Index (EI) approach phosphates are added to enable strong plant growth.
Good fortune with your endeavours.

 

[Fluxtor]

Treat the tank with a salicylic acid algaecide. This will check the algae and give your plants a chance to grow.
Strong plant growth no algae. Poor plant growth/plants slowly dyeing lots of algae.
A nutrient rich water column will help both to grow so tip the balance towards the higher plants.
Remember in the Estimated Index (EI) approach phosphates are added to enable strong plant growth.
Good fortune with your endeavours.

What do you recommend?

 

[Oldguy]

What do you recommend?

I make my own. I copied the formulation of a German product that I found on the internet. They had the active ingredient very clearly stated in the small print. It took about 4 weeks to show any results. I them used it for a further 4 weeks or so. Now I have no visible algae but strong plant growth. I no longer dose as I believe that the higher plants suppress algal growth. I also tracked down some fine red cherry shrimp at a keen price and now have a colony of little helpers.
Salicylic acid can be bought on ebay. A small amount will last you several lifetimes. To get over the small amounts to weigh use larger amounts and use liquid dilutions to get the desired strength. It is poorly soluble in water, I started with 1gram in 2litres of RO water and diluted down from there. The most expensive ingredient in the final solution was the RO water.
Hufsa a fellow member of this forum posted the following:
Salicylic Acid:
Links: Wikipedia, Pubchem, ECHA

Brand: Happy-Life
Product name: Algin Regular
Active Ingredient: Salicylic Acid 35mg/100ml

Brand: Happy-Life
Product name: Algin Extra
Active Ingredient: Salicylic Acid 35mg/100ml
(Pending email answer from manufacturer on what makes it Extra)

Brand: Easy-Life
Product name: AlgExit
Active Ingredient: Salicylic Acid 2mg/g
I hope that the above is of help.
Good luck with your endeavours.

 

[Connswater]

Hi all,

It will remove PO4--- from the water column, personally I don't really see a problem with high phosphate levels, even if they exist.

Cheers Darrel

Interesting you say that Darrel. I have always found "high" levels of Phosphate the single biggest factor that I can associate with algae problems in my aquariums.

I am not saying I have scientifically identified cause and effect, it might just be correlation, but in terms of rivers and lakes, the scientific consensus surely is that Phosphate is the major factor in eutrophication?

UK rivers are I believe regarded at risk, admittedly in the summer with higher temperatures and longer and more intense daylight, of serious algae blooms, if Phosphate levels exceed 0.25 ppm, or some similarly remarkably low figure. I think I read that over the next decade the water authorities are to work to achieve an even lower figure.

I just aim to keep measurable (with I know, unreliable home kits) Phosphate levels below 1 ppm in my main tank. Tropical aquariums are by their very nature warm, and many of us use intense lighting, though in my case not an especially long photo period, not more than 8 hours, obviously in the British Isles, especially in Scotland, the day can be very long at times.

Nitrate, temperature, light intensity and light duration are all factors in algae blooms, but surely Phosphate is something we do need to be careful about? I know some folks recommend keeping tanks a little cooler, 22 or 23 degrees, but I have always found that though this is fine for corydoras, barbs and danios, it is not appreciated by tetras. As kid in the distant 1960s in an era when central heating was uncommon, we made strenuous efforts to keep our tanks at 24 as a minimum at night time, when the open fire had died and by the 'wee hours' the living room was often decidedly chilly. Belfast is not especially cold in the winter but without double glazing and central heating it sometimes required a higher wattage heater stat than normally recommended to ensure the fish were not distressed by breakfast time.

Phosphate is, in my humble experience, like so many things in life, in moderation, a good thing, in excess really bad news, the issue is I suppose defining excess? Especially if an aquarium has intense light and CO2 injection. I suspect with CO2 injection, a marginally higher level of Phosphate than is acceptable in our rivers, certainly with fast growing stem plants, can be accommodated. Likewise in a moderately lit tank with lots of pollution loving duckweed. But lots of tanks are well lit now. I suspect under-lit tanks were the norm until maybe 20 years ago, certainly I always had to add extra lights to successfully grow plants with 'fully equipped' kits until very recently. And for Rotala macrandra even with a Superfish kit, I added an extra LED bar, I note recently George Farmer showed a low tech Superfish tank in which the folks at Tropica had removed the Superfish LED bar light (which I believe is rated at around 25 watts) because it was judged too strong and replaced it with a Kessel 15 watt light. An financial extravagance for sure. I think the Superfish tank, filter and light combined are cheaper to buy than a Kessel light. I would have thought a table lamp with a decent LED bulb would have done the job for under £20 if lower light intensity was the objective.

Honestly I claim no technical superior undestanding just experience, and as I have said previously, I am not a scientist and I understand very little of the biochemistry or physics involved in our somewhat eccentric hobby of trying to grow plants in glass boxes full of water, I can claim however, tremendous success on occasions growing magnificent blooms of algae. My most successful green algae tank had high lighting, a clean silver sand substrate with root tabs, an exhausted CO2 system, no floating plants, high summer temperatures in the room and a measured water column Phosphate level above 5. Clearly a winning formula, which was most important? I am not scientific enough to say. The tank was saved, ultimately, by opening the lid flaps, adding CO2, floating plants (mainly hornwort), leaving a venting window open in the room, and putting Rowa in the filter cannister. It ran successfully in my office for a number of years thereafter with no problems. It was a Juwel 350, but the T5 lighting required careful monitoring - the flaps had to be left open otherwise overheating was an issue, but it ran with the installed filter, a yeast and sugar CO2 system and very low Phosphate levels and a lot of admiration from colleagues and students. It grew however, a limited range of hard water tolerant plants - hygrophila, hornwort, vallis and crypts.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Interesting you say that Darrel. I have always found "high" levels of Phosphate the single biggest factor that I can associate with algae problems in my aquariums.

It might be one of them.

I am not saying I have scientifically identified cause and effect, it might just be correlation, but in terms of rivers and lakes, the scientific consensus surely is that Phosphate is the major factor in eutrophication?

Definitely it is.

UK rivers are I believe regarded at risk, admittedly in the summer with higher temperatures and longer and more intense daylight, of serious algae blooms, if Phosphate levels exceed 0.25 ppm, or some similarly remarkably low figure. I think I read that over the next decade the water authorities are to work to achieve an even lower figure.

Phytoplankton blooms are definitely associated with high PO4--- levels. The situation is slightly more complex than that, because some lakes remain clear even when they are at elevated PO4--- levels, and hypertrophic lakes often become clear again for reasons that aren't fully understood.

I just aim to keep measurable (with I know, unreliable home kits) Phosphate levels below 1 ppm in my main tank.

Phosphate is one of the easier nutrients to test for, mainly because a lot of PO4--- compounds are both coloured and insoluble.

Nitrate, temperature, light intensity and light duration are all factors in algae blooms, but surely Phosphate is something we do need to be careful about?

Personally I like lean dosing, but it is only really ammonia that bothers me

Phosphate is, in my humble experience, like so many things in life, in moderation, a good thing, in excess really bad news, the issue is I suppose defining excess?

I just focus on plant growth, I'm not really too bothered about anything else. It sounds simplistic, but it cuts straight to the chase.

When I originally heard about E.I. I thought it had a Snowball in Hell's chance of working, but you can't deny that it works, even if you don't know why.

Honestly I claim no technical superior undestanding just experience, and as I have said previously, I am not a scientist and I understand very little of the biochemistry or physics involved in our somewhat eccentric hobby of trying to grow plants in glass boxes full of water,

I'm not sure anybody does, you have a huge number of variables.

I can claim however, tremendous success on occasions growing magnificent blooms of algae. My most successful green algae tank had high lighting, a clean silver sand substrate with root tabs, an exhausted CO2 system, no floating plants, high summer temperatures in the room and a measured water column Phosphate level above 5. Clearly a winning formula, which was most important? I am not scientific enough to say.

Back to the unknown unknowns.

The tank was saved, ultimately, by opening the lid flaps, adding CO2, floating plants (mainly hornwort), leaving a venting window open in the room, and putting Rowa in the filter cannister. It ran successfully in my office for a number of years thereafter with no problems. It was a Juwel 350, but the T5 lighting required careful monitoring - the flaps had to be left open otherwise overheating was an issue, but it ran with the installed filter, a yeast and sugar CO2 system and very low Phosphate levels and a lot of admiration from colleagues and students.

Good.

Cheers Darrel

 

[Fluxtor]

I make my own. I copied the formulation of a German product that I found on the internet. They had the active ingredient very clearly stated in the small print. It took about 4 weeks to show any results. I them used it for a further 4 weeks or so. Now I have no visible algae but strong plant growth. I no longer dose as I believe that the higher plants suppress algal growth. I also tracked down some fine red cherry shrimp at a keen price and now have a colony of little helpers.
Salicylic acid can be bought on ebay. A small amount will last you several lifetimes. To get over the small amounts to weigh use larger amounts and use liquid dilutions to get the desired strength. It is poorly soluble in water, I started with 1gram in 2litres of RO water and diluted down from there. The most expensive ingredient in the final solution was the RO water.
Hufsa a fellow member of this forum posted the following:
Salicylic Acid:
Links: Wikipedia, Pubchem, ECHA

Brand: Happy-Life
Product name: Algin Regular
Active Ingredient: Salicylic Acid 35mg/100ml

Brand: Happy-Life
Product name: Algin Extra
Active Ingredient: Salicylic Acid 35mg/100ml
(Pending email answer from manufacturer on what makes it Extra)

Brand: Easy-Life
Product name: AlgExit
Active Ingredient: Salicylic Acid 2mg/g
I hope that the above is of help.
Good luck with your endeavours.

Thanks, I'll look into this!

 

[Oldguy]

Phosphate is one of the easier nutrients to test for, mainly because a lot of PO4--- compounds are both coloured and insoluble.

Assuming that the test kit was reliable, I have had in the past, very high phosphate levels just from the introduction of potted aquatic plants.
In the natural environment I wonder how long phosphatic compounds are biologically available given the insolubility of many of its compounds..