• You are viewing the forum as a Guest, please login (you can use your Facebook, Twitter, Google or Microsoft account to login) or register using this link: Log in or Sign Up

PAR meter apps, android and iOS

Tim Harrison

Administrator
UKAPS Team
Joined
5 Nov 2011
Messages
10,462
Location
Leicestershire
Anyone use an app to measure PAR? Or been thinking about trying one out?

 
Perhaps it doesn’t give accurate PAR values, I’m guessing it uses some sort of proxy and algorithm. But if it gives consistent readings it could be used for comparisons. Say if you find the sweet spot through trial and error, it could be measured with the app and replicated.
 
Have used Photone on iPhone 12 Pro on Superfish Slim LED 74 and reading was so close to what they claim on the light packaging. Was very impressed with the quality of the app which made me spent some ££ on LED in-app purchase :)
 
Last edited:
Hi all,

I think they all basically measure white light. This means that if you put a red and /or blue diode horticultural light it will have a low PAR (PUR) value, which obviously isn't correct.

cheers Darrel
Remeber that a camera sensor array is usually a Bayer array. Meaning it has RGB filters over individual pixels (1 r/1pixel).
The Ratio is usually 1:2:1 RGB
If one wanted to use the sensor as a lux meter the easiest thing to measure would be the green pixels.
See the curve below.
Measuring "par" is just using all the pixels..Well my guess anyways.

Of course one can do a whole bunch of fancy software to measure whatever you like using the data from individual pixels.
"Fancy" par meters use a different technique in general though the cheap ones probably do the same thing as a camera sensor.
Hard to say. Certainly is the cheapest way.
The LiCor is an example of the " expensive" way...
licor design.JPG


T74P0.jpg


On a side note it is quite interesting how a camera changes a bunch of RGB data to a full color image..

 
Last edited:
You need an actual sensor design to measure par. Not a camera lens.
Had to measure light output for my work before I retired. We used color corrected light for product inspection.
You can get a fairly accurate ballpark measurement with these apps. Although I am an imaging scientist (including being very deeply familiar and involved in what @oreo57 brushes on above) I’m not really into this Photosynthetic Active Radiation (PAR) measurement when it comes to my own planted tanks. Being super precise on PAR is just not really applicable / important for the conditions in a planted aquarium for several reasons including the fact that we usually keep a wide variety of plants with different needs. At least it shouldn’t be on the shortlist of concerns if your plants are not thriving. In the range we would routinely measure (say 50-150) a 10% error with say the Photone or other apps would only amount to a +/- 5-15 PAR difference… If you want to be more precise use a real PAR meter… will the extra precision make a difference? Probably not, but I’m not dissing the concept of course…. It’s important for commercial plant growers where that extra few percent overall yield from a perfectly balanced PAR for a specific crop might make a significant difference commercially.


Cheers,
Michael
 
Last edited:
Installing PPFD meter app reveals if a smart phone has a build in a light sensor capable of reading PAR values. Then it can display light intensity per area reading which is more important to plants than just PAR value.

The Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density PPFD measures the light that actually arrives at the plants in the PAR zone.

The amount of light that actually reaches the plants within the PAR region or the number of photosynthetically active photons that fall on a given surface each second. The PPFD is expressed in micromoles per square meter per second µmol/m2/s.

I think they all basically measure white light. This means that if you put a red and /or blue diode horticultural light it will have a low PAR (PUR) value, which obviously isn't correct.
This is what I get when I test 5k LED and Grow red & blue LED with phone app, both at the same distance.

White 5k LED, 15W rated, 14W actual, 1300 PPFD

Grow red & blue LED, 18W rated, 20W actual, 300 PPFD

Should Apogee quantum sensor give different readings?
 
Hi all,
This is what I get when I test 5k LED and Grow red & blue LED with phone app, both at the same distance.
White 5k LED, 15W rated, 14W actual, 1300 PPFD
Grow red & blue LED, 18W rated, 20W actual, 300 PPFD
That was the result I'd expect, if the phone app was actually measuring <"white light"> and not photosynthetic photon efficacy (PPE - in micromoles of photons per joule (μmol∙J⁻¹)).
Should Apogee quantum sensor give different readings
I'm going to say that I would expect it would, but I don't actually know, you would need @oreo57 .

As an aside we are back to <"inferential methods"> being potentially "better" than empirical measurement, if the empirical measurement isn't actually measuring the parameter that we are interested in.

We know that red and blue Diode arrays are <"energy efficient horticultural lights">, because commercial horticulture (and grow you own "Tomato" growers) use them, and they are interested in "bang for your buck", even if their product may eventually go up in smoke. <"https://gpnmag.com/wp-content/uploa...ing_A-Close-Look-at-LED-Efficacy_GPN_0122.pdf">.
....... While the efficacy of an LED fixture depends on several factors, the primary determinant is the composure of the individual diodes. Red LEDs are roughly 30% more effective than blue LEDs, and blue LEDs are about 20 to 25% more effective than white LEDs. Therefore, the most efficient fixtures contain 90 to 95% red LEDs and 5 to 10% blue LEDs (Figure 1). LEDs that contain mostly red with some white LEDs have slightly lower PPE values. While a fixture that includes white LEDs will invariably have a lower PPE value, the emitted light can improve the color rendering of plants and create a more pleasant working environment........

cheers Darrel
 
It really depends on the PAR meter you use, as they have ranges that depend on what sensor the model you are using have.

Attached what I get using my Apogee MS-100, both PAR and ePPFD.

But as I tell people when talking about light and PPFD: ‘If you don’t know the spectral power distribution you have no idea what you are feeding your plants’
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0839.png
    IMG_0839.png
    150.9 KB · Views: 25
  • IMG_0840.png
    IMG_0840.png
    153.5 KB · Views: 27
  • IMG_0841.png
    IMG_0841.png
    155.1 KB · Views: 23
  • IMG_0835.png
    IMG_0835.png
    158.1 KB · Views: 23
  • IMG_0834.png
    IMG_0834.png
    160 KB · Views: 21
  • IMG_0833.png
    IMG_0833.png
    159.7 KB · Views: 24
  • IMG_0838.png
    IMG_0838.png
    118.4 KB · Views: 26
Last edited:
But as I tell people when talking about light and PPFD: ‘If you don’t know the spectral power distribution you have no idea what you are feeding your plants’
Luckily, but not surprisingly given plants and humans evolved under similar conditions, the spectral distribution of the light (say daylight around the equator) that’s pleasing for the standard observer is fairly ideal for our tropical freshwater plants as well. Of course the spectral distribution is important, but no one in their right mind will sell (or purchase) aquarium lights that makes your tank look like the dairy isle at Walmart or a rave party in Ibiza.

Cheers,
Michael
 
Last edited:
But as I tell people when talking about light and PPFD: ‘If you don’t know the spectral power distribution you have no idea what you are feeding your plants’
And even if we did, we have no idea of what the pants need/require.

Let's suppose these apps are accurate. I have a reading of 91 par, but hey my plants look like shite... can a blame A) increct par readings from my phones par sensor, B) Weak light, I need more par. Or C) no of the above. 😁
 
Luckily, but not surprisingly given plants and humans evolved under similar conditions, the spectral distribution of the light (say daylight around the equator) that’s pleasing for the standard observer is fairly ideal for our tropical freshwater plants as well.
The problem is that not that many of them are tropical freshwater plants, and the argument is further flawed as plants use the light for different parts of their growth, where humans use it mainly for being able to navigate the environment.
Of course the spectral distribution is important, but no one in their right mind will sell (or purchase) aquarium lights…
From that statement I take it you have not tested the spectral powerdistribution on that many aquarium lights.

My wife once used a very good analogy ‘You can live just eating food from Mc Donalds, but that does not mean that it is a healthy diet’. The light I posted above (ADA Solar RGB) is by far the worst I have in my collection, it grows plants but not as well as others with a better spectral powerdistribution, but due to how our eyes works it makes the plants look pleasing.
 
And even if we did, we have no idea of what the pants need/require.
Occam’s razor… they evolved on earth under the light of our sun. If they grow in the shade of other plants your best bet is growing them in the shade of other plants (that evolved to grow in direct sunlight) in the aquarium.
Let's suppose these apps are accurate.
They are not. There is a reason why people use meters that are used in labs.
 
The problem is that not that many of them are tropical freshwater plants, and the argument is further flawed as plants use the light for different parts of their growth, where humans use it mainly for being able to navigate the environment.
Not entirely sure what you mean… for sure, tropical means between ~23 degrees North and ~23 deg South … so I might have confined my argument half a dozen degrees or so, but let’s say tropical and partial subtropical then.

Occam’s razor… they evolved on earth under the light of our sun. If they grow in the shade of other plants your best bet is growing them in the shade of other plants (that evolved to grow in direct sunlight) in the aquarium.
I can’t see how William Ockham’s namesake principle of parsimony applies here… Mother Nature is NOT following that principle - She missed the memo I suppose.

My wife once used a very good analogy ‘You can live just eating food from Mc Donalds, but that does not mean that it is a healthy diet’.

I like your wife’s analogy, but I am not sure how that fits into this discussion… in this case I take it as a rhetorical straw-man, as no one said the constituent of our light is inconsequential… it’s just that unless it’s far off the rails, it’s much less
consequential than most of all the other things we are doing with our tanks.



They are not. There is a reason why people use meters that are used in labs.
If you’re in a laboratory environment there is usually a serious reason why you need precision. One of the most important lessons I learned from lab classes back in the day at that shoddy school in Pasadena was to assess precision, when it matters and how it relates to what is being measured and the conditions under which the measurements are made. It’s futile to try and be more accurate than the underlying conditions allow for. Being off by 10-15% with a good PAR measurement App is really not bad at all. If there are any serious arguments to the contrary relevant to our hobby I’m certainly all ears. 👂


Cheers,
Michael
 
Last edited:
Not entirely sure what you mean… for sure, tropical means between ~23 degrees North and ~23 deg South … so I might have confined my argument half a dozen degrees or so, but let’s say tropical and partial subtropical then.
I though that was obvious.
Most of the plants used are not true freshwater plants. On top of that if you look at where many of the plants grow you will find that they grow well into the temperate zone. Some are pure temperate zone plants.
I can’t see how William Ockham’s namesake principle of parsimony applies here… Mother Nature is NOT following that principle - She missed the memo I suppose.
No, but it should be a principle we use when looking for explanations.
I like your wife’s analogy, but I am not sure how that fits into this discussion… in this case I take it as a rhetorical straw-man, as no one said the constituent of our light is inconsequential… it’s just that unless it’s far off the rails, it’s much less
consequential than most of all the other things we are doing with our tanks.
Post #12:
I took from that that you have not been looking at the spectral powerdistribution on a lot of the popular lights in the hobby. Many of them are only OK for growing plants, but that is it.
We can not rely on our eyes to tell us if a light is good or not (well we can see how the plants grow, but not by just looking at the light).
Why is it that people try and optimize CO2 and micro/macro ferts and then go on with the doktrin of plants are adaptable and can handle almost any light we provide them with?
Looking in the literature it is clear that the importance of mosts parts of the solar spectrum plays some role in plant growth/development.
If you’re in a laboratory environment there is usually a serious reason why you need precision. One of the most important lessons I learned from lab classes back in the day at that shoddy school in Pasadena was to assess precision, when it matters and how it relates to what is being measured and the conditions under which the measurements are made. It’s futile to try and be more accurate than the underlying conditions allow for.
Indeed, but how many do the readings in the aquarium with plants and at different times of the day to see what contributions they have from other sources.
I will argue that most people does not even need to bother with PAR readings.
Being off by 10-15% with a good PAR measurement App is really not bad at all. If there are any serious arguments to the contrary relevant to our hobby I’m certainly all ears. 👂
Because PAR without the knowledge of the spectral powerdistribution is not that useful. I have been experimenting with lights over the last 5 years and found that the closer I can get the spectral powerdistribution to that from the sun (within the 380 nm to 760 nm range) the less intensity I have needed for getting good growth.
I have never used a PAR app for a phone, I have read about people testing them and yes the good ones are indeed within 5%, but if you don’t know the spectral powerdistribution then you are working in the dark. On the other hand some apps are as much as 40% off… and let us be honest, Apogees MQ-510 is not that expensive.
 
Hi all,
I have been experimenting with lights over the last 5 years and found that the closer I can get the spectral powerdistribution to that from the sun (within the 380 nm to 760 nm range) the less intensity I have needed for getting good growth.
That makes a lot of sense.

It is likely that <"photosynthesis only evolved once"> - <"https://nph.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/nph.16249">, so inthe very broadest sense ("all photosynthetic organisms <"form a clade"> <"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_photosynthesis"> ") and that natural selection has had a very long time to work on photosynthesis.

cheers Darrel
 
Last edited:
Back
Top