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organic/ inorganic nitrate?

Mitchel

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17 May 2021
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Belgium
The nutrients we add to our tanks are all chemical salts. These are inorganic. That is, they do not contain organic substances such as carbon.
As an example nitrate in the form of KNO3. There are more sources of nitrate but this is the most commonly used.

As part of the nitrification cycle, ammonia is converted to NO3: organic waste > NH4 > NO2 > NO3.
We call this organic nitrate, and this NO3 would be available to our plants as nutrient

So far this introduction to my question:
In summary, there are 2 types of nitrate: the chemical inorganic nitrate (dry salt) and the biological organic nitrate, which originated from the nitrification cycle.
And now the main question: does the organic nitrogen contain carbon?

cheers, Mitch
 
And now the main question: does the organic nitrogen contain carbon?
Anything considered organic contains carbon. What we usually worry about is accumulation of nitrate we get as a by-product from breakdown of organic waste because it usually means you got it from ammonia. Most of the NO3 salts such as KNO3 we add to our tanks in a controlled manner are harmless - some people tend to add too much… still harmless, just unnecessary.

Cheers,
Michael
 
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From what I remember of my high school chemistry classes, the original division of organic and inorganic substances was due to a belief that only living beings could create the organic substances, while inorganic substances could be created by chemical reactions. While most organic substances had carbon, that wasn’t the rule, and ammonia was one such case of non carbon organic substances.

as a coincidence, it was ammonia that was the first organic substance synthesized by some chemist, proving this theory false.
 
proving this theory false.
True, however it was never really a theory as much as it was nomenclature… if you look up organic chemistry it will tell you it involves Carbon and (or?) often hydrogen as the common denominators. Anyway, there is a lot of hand -waving in chemistry as far as I can tell :)

Cheers,
Michael
 
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does the organic nitrogen contain carbon?

I guess since nitrogen is a chemical element in itself it's neither organic nor inorganic it's just nitrogen. N² is the most abundant diatomic gas in our atmosphere. In any other form, it only exists as a compound and only this compound can be organic or inorganic.

Thus organic nitrogen actually doesn't really exist and the word organic in this case could stand as a synonym for a nitrogen compound from a biological source.

As the article states the definition of the term Organic compound in chemistry varies from author to author and it's debatable if every compound containing carbon could be considered organic. But it would be a yes in Organic Chemistry since it is the study of the structure of carbon-containing compounds.

I don't know about Englisch in this case but in my native language, Organic Chemistry also called "Carbon-Chemistry"
:)

From a biological viewpoint, Organic Nitrogen is for example a compound containing nitrogen such as Proteins, Amino, Aminoacids and urea.
 
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as a coincidence, it was ammonia that was the first organic substance synthesized by some chemist, proving this theory false.
Not ammonia, but urea was the first "organic" compound synthesised from inorganic starting points, thus ruining the prevalent theory of organic compounds were from living things and inorganic compounds from non living things.
 
So the nitrogen that occurs from the nitrification process (and serves as food for our plants) has an organic origin and its a nitrogen compound which consists of organic substances, including carbon.
This may explain why inorganic nitrogen (chemical salts) cannot cause algae and organic nitrogen can contribute to algae formation.
After all, algae (and plants) have a preference for carbon-based nitrogen compounds, such as urea. 🤔
 
After all, algae (and plants) have a preference for carbon-based nitrogen compounds, such as urea.

I guess we do not know yet what plants prefer, as far as we know it seems the plant doesn't care much where the nitrogen comes from as long as it's there and the plant grows either way.

We know for example that a tomato that is grown on rockwool substrate under artificial light and artificial fertilizers might look the same but has a different and much less taste than a completely naturally grown tomato under the sun on organic soil with organic fertilizers. The Dutch tomato nurseries used to produce tons of artificially grown tomatoes to be exported to Germany for example. But they shot themself into their foot with it and these tomatoes were at one point commonly known as tasteless Dutch Waterbombs and became more and more unpopular. The Dutch growers had to adapt and return to the more organic way of growing it. Why that is, is actually a complete mystery and it's still impossible to replicate it artificially and produce the same result. Artifially grown crops are also more prone to catch diseases than naturally grown ones.

From a growing perspective in form and colour, the plant doesn't seem to care... From a health and taste perspective, it seems to care a lot...

We also know that there is much more to it than meets the eye, plants are symbiotic organisms and live and work together with other micro-organisms, such as bacteria, other critters etc. and fungi in the soil. We know they do, yet we have very little knowledge of how this complexity all works together. The bacteria and fungi etc. do not only do nitrification but also seem to produce hormones, peptides enzymes etc. and the whole underground network also seems to be a sort of communication network.

Soil research results revealed that the use of artificial fertilizers kills this underground network and makes the soil more compact and harder for the plant to root healthy. Soils that get natural organic fertilizer are much more abundant in micro-life and therefore much more loosely and easier for the plant to grow in.

So we know its existence and we know it does a better job but we yet do not know why and how it all works together. Is it the plants that prefer it? Or the entire subterranean symbiotic complex helping one another? This is still a mystery of nature. We yet do not poses the means to measure it.

So there is no definitive answer to your question...

What we know concerning organic nitrogen such as urea in a tiny aquatic ecosystem such as an aquarium a tad too much of it is rather toxic to water life. That's the reason why it's not recommended to use fertilizers containing urea but KNO3 instead. Some still do use urea and are successful with it, but it's very tricky and playing with fire and it could kill your livestock.

For the rest, anything organic is/was from living organisms, could be waste in the form of once alive and now dead or a secreted waste product such as pee and poop (urine - urea). And all life as we know it is thus organic and carbon-based.

Little fun fact :) in the early days, farmers that kept cattle in their stables had their cattle urinating against the stable's walls. They noticed the walls were covered with a crystallised material. It needed to be cleaned out at one time and they scrapped this off the wall and used it as fertilizer on their land and this was/is Dry salt Urea in its most natural organic form...

Dried/crystalized cattle pee... We could do this too, just find a nice spot at the garden shed and keep peeing long enough against it. Then you'll have your DIY nitrogen fertilizer. :lol::thumbup:
 
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Hi all,
So the nitrogen that occurs from the nitrification process (and serves as food for our plants) has an organic origin and its a nitrogen compound which consists of organic substances, including carbon.
The nitrate ion (NO3-) can have an organic origin, but plants can only take up nutrients as "ions" and there is no difference between the NO3- derived from a salt like potassium nitrate (KNO3) and the nitrate ion derived from the the microbial oxidation of ammonia, <"they are exactly the same">.
After all, algae (and plants) have a preference for carbon-based nitrogen compounds, such as urea.
<"I think they normally prefer ammonia (NH3)"> but the same applies here, some plants and microbes have the <"urease enzyme"> that allows them to split urea (CO(NH2)2) into CO2 and NH3 (reaction is CO(NH2)2 + H2O urease→ CO2 + 2NH3).

Urea is much less toxic than ammonia, which is why <"terrestrial animals excrete it">, rather than ammonia. In water you have the power of dilution, so that there isn't any evolutionary pressure to develop less kinetically efficient methods of ammonia removal.

cheers Darrel
 
So the nitrogen that occurs from the nitrification process (and serves as food for our plants) has an organic origin and its a nitrogen compound which consists of organic substances, including carbon.
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Fishes excrete ammonia, which is possibly the most significant nitrogen source for the nitrification process in aquariums, and there is no carbon in it. Further up the line, I suppose there are proteins and what not that do contain nitrogen and carbon and throughout the metabolism of the livestock and microorganisms gets turned into ammonia, but that is not what the plants are consuming.

Urea would be the only nitrogen source that I know of that does contain carbon and that plants can use as a nitrogen source, due to the urease enzyme that Darrel mentioned.
 
This may explain why inorganic nitrogen (chemical salts) cannot cause algae and organic nitrogen can contribute to algae formation.
Further up the line, I suppose there are proteins and what not that do contain nitrogen and carbon and throughout the metabolism of the livestock and microorganisms gets turned into ammonia, but that is not what the plants are consuming.
Good contributions above.
I rather fancy that plants can source their nitrogen from the consumption of nitrogenous organic molecules (e.g. proteins etc.).
I would expect that in certain environments these organic molecules constitute the majority of nitrogen uptake, in certain plants.
It is worth considering just how tiny organic molecules are. They can easily diffuse into plant tissue and become metabolised by the plant.
 
Hi all,
I would expect that in certain environments these organic molecules constitute the majority of nitrogen uptake, in certain plants.
It is worth considering just how tiny organic molecules are. They can easily diffuse into plant tissue and become metabolised by the plant.
@Simon Cole do you know what form insectivorous plants take their nitrogen in? Something like Drosera or Utricularia spp. I'm guessing that they have specialised enzymes, but I don't know in what form they take up the fixed nitrogen in.

I'm just being lazy really and I could / should go and find out.

cheers Darrel
 
do you know what form insectivorous plants take their nitrogen in?
Many carnivorous plants do have specialised enzymes for the lysis of dead insects, and they do take up amino-acids, so they are partial heterotrophs.
I know that a lot of growth medium gels use amino acids as a source of nitrogen. I would hazard a guess that most plants have a healthy amount of organic C-N metabolism.
 
I know that a lot of growth medium gels use amino acids as a source of nitrogen. I would hazard a guess that most plants have a healthy amount of organic C-N metabolism.
Didn't know that! It made me think that maybe the mysterious mechanism through which healthy plants help control algae in a tank could be that they consume those organic bits that could be triggering algae? Many people associate the trigger with ammonia, but that gets easily counterargued by people using ammonia as a fertilizer. Maybe the molecules upstream in the production line are more to blame.

Which goes back to the original question of this topic...
 
Seems like a bit of a mix-up.
’Organic nitrate‘ is just jumbled together non-sense. NO3- is
NO3- if it comes from organic processes and
NO3- if it comes from salt dissolution.
Plants won’t be able to differentiate if it originated from a salt or nitrification, just like we can’t differentiate if a a water molecule was part of a dinosaur at one point.

It’s likely you heard of the issue in the context of something like this :
’Getting to 20 ppm NO3 by adding fish food to your aquarium is different than getting to 20 ppm NO3 by adding KNO3. ’
In other words, just because you test your water and get a NO3 value, it doesn’t give a complete picture. In the case above, it’s not the NO3 that’s the issue. It’s not the 20 ppm NO3 from fish food that is the concern. The issue is the other stuff that was added with fish food, with fish metabolism, with bacterial metabolism... all those are still in the tank and are not or can’t easily be measured. With KNO3, outside nitrate, you are just adding a known concentration of potassium. What’s more if you tell me you fertilized your aquarium to with that much KNO3 , I can add the exact same amount to my tank in the hopes of replicating your results.
 
It made me think that maybe the mysterious mechanism through which healthy plants help control algae in a tank could be that they consume those organic bits that could be triggering algae?
Add to the mix the potential for plant growth regulators to be released during trimming, and you can see why algae get it easy sometimes. Check out my older post <here> ;)
 
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Hi all,
NO3- if it comes from organic processes and
NO3- if it comes from salt dissolution.
Plants won’t be able to differentiate if it originated from a salt or nitrification, just like we can’t differentiate if a a water molecule was part of a dinosaur at one point....It’s not the 20 ppm NO3 from fish food that is the concern. The issue is the other stuff that was added with fish food, with fish metabolism, with bacterial metabolism... all those are still in the tank and are not or can’t easily be measured.
potential for plant growth regulators to be released during trimming
That is where I'm coming from as well.

cheers Darrel
 
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