Nutrient deficiency or excess?

[Matth22]

I’m wondering if anyone can help me down the right road with this.

160lt tank, Aquamanta efx300 filter, inline co2 diffuser and heater, with a pair of ecotech radeon freshwaters set at 25% intensity for 10 hours a day.

Co2 drop checker is nice and lime green when the lights come on and remains that way until lights off.

Dosing APT 3, 5ml daily. New growth on all plants but they’re not thriving and show some signs of something not being balanced.

There is minimal algae, what is there I’ve attributed to some root tab capsules that one of the plecos kindly dug up - this is a green filamentous algae

Livestock wise there is a single adult angel, EBR pair, 8 black phantom tetra, 6 sterbai cory, an L397 and L204 pleco

Is it a deficiency? Or is the APT3 plus livestock bioload creating an excess?

 

[MichaelJ]

If possible, can you post a better picture? - Like a full tank shot (FTS) - This will help the experts to get a better sense of the situation.

How old is this tank and what is your maintenance routine?

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Cheers,
Michael

 

[xZaiox]

a pair of ecotech radeon freshwaters set at 25% intensity for 10 hours a day.

I haven't owned these lights before, but any chance this intensity is inadequate? Plants can generally handle a lot of light when they have good co2 to match.

The plant on the left seems to have leggier growth towards the bottom. I've seen the "small, crippled" growth patterns in tanks with inadequate lighting before. Some plant species also demand higher lighting, for instance I used to struggle to grow "limnophila hippuridoides", it would grow small and develop black beard algae all over it, all the other plants in my tank did better, it was mainly the limnophilia that struggled. After increasing the lighting, the limnophilia did much better.

According to 2hraquarist, your dosing of their fertiliser is adequate. They also use chelation via EDTA, DTPA and EDDHA, so it should cover a range of pHs. I would double check that the flow in your tank is good - you should visibly see all the plant leaves lightly moving in the flow. If flow is good, it may be worth trying an increase in light intensity. It would also be worth checking the water report for your house, things like high dKH can impact plant growth.

What plant species is on the left with crippled growth? I also believe the plant on the right is hygrophila polysperma rosanervig? It typically develops a different coloured leaf under higher lighting conditions.

 

[erwin123]

1. good water flow
2. good maintenance routine

H. Polysperma is an easy plant. Under CO2 supplementation, it should grow so fast that new growth will always be algae free. So it is a bit odd to see the tops of your H.Polysperma looking like they have algae.
Also, there seems to be physical damage to some leaves? Did a fish take a bite out of a leaf?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I haven't owned these lights before, but any chance this intensity is inadequate? Plants can generally handle a lot of light when they have good co2 to match.

I'd <"turn them up as well">, that way you would know lack of light isn't your issue.

What makes me think it might be light is that the internodes on the Hygrophila polysperma look quite long, and <"etiolated growth"> is often <"caused by low levels of PAR">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Matth22]

Thanks for replies so far. I’ll wait until lights on and upload some more photos

Just as a bit more info on the tank - it’s been set-up maybe 5 or 6 months but had an algae outbreak while I was on holiday and decided to replace a lot of the plants

To address a couple of suggestions made already - tank flow is good. I recently added a mini power head to the opposite corner of the filter inlet/outlet to address a bit of a dead spot behind some driftwood. All plants are moving gently in the flow.

Light intensity wise, the ecotech radeons are pretty powerful and I’m not sure if they even need reducing further - happy to be wrong on this though as that’s an easy fix!

I am religious with 50% weekly water changes. I can’t see how it’s a maintenance thing.

dkh could be a good shout. From memory, last time I checked my KH was 7 but GH around 12. I have an RO unit but a reluctance to start using buckets again (WC with python currently) unless it’s really necessary.

Bites out of the leaves are possible I suppose. It could be the plecos, but there is definitely something other than that going on

I don’t fully recall the name of the hygrophila in the photo, but it wasn’t polysperma - australis something I think? Even so, should be fast growing

The plant to the left is rotala indica, which has deformed new leaves on some stems, others are fine and there is new healthy growth branching out on most stems

To the right I have ludwigia glandulosa which is looking quite healthy, and ludwigia palustris mini super red which has some filamentous algae on the lower leaves but healthy looking tops

 

[G H Nelson]

Hi
My take on Rotala sp.....a very finicky plant!
It does not do well in over-fertilized water columns....it does best in Co2/high light and low-dosing fertilizing.
Purchase a TDS pen.....check out the tap and aquarium TDS!
I would stop dosing for 4 weeks and keep up the water changes.
Could be Hygrophila polysperma 'Rosanervig' which likes the same growing conditions as the Rotala sp.
I would be careful with the Co2....a green drop checker would suffice especially as you have fish.

Image courtesy of hoggie 😉

 

[G H Nelson]

*End note
Remove the deformed growth from the Rotala and monitor is growth....in the coming weeks!

 

[The Miniaturist]

There is another hygrophila species which looks like H. Rosanervig called Hygrophila rosae australis.
I don't know if they need the same conditions but I have the rosae australis version & it grows in low light with no Co2! The topmost leaves show the pink colouring but the lower leaves remain green with white veins. 🙂

 

[G H Nelson]

There is another hygrophila species which looks like H. Rosanervig called Hygrophila rosae australis.
I don't know if they need the same conditions but I have the rosae australis version & it grows in low light with no Co2! The topmost leaves show the pink colouring but the lower leaves remain green with white veins. 🙂

Wasn't aware of that plant....thanks for that!

 

[Matth22]

Thanks for replies so far. I’ll wait until lights on and upload some more photos

Just as a bit more info on the tank - it’s been set-up maybe 5 or 6 months but had an algae outbreak while I was on holiday and decided to replace a lot of the plants

To address a couple of suggestions made already - tank flow is good. I recently added a mini power head to the opposite corner of the filter inlet/outlet to address a bit of a dead spot behind some driftwood. All plants are moving gently in the flow.

Light intensity wise, the ecotech radeons are pretty powerful and I’m not sure if they even need reducing further - happy to be wrong on this though as that’s an easy fix!

I am religious with 50% weekly water changes. I can’t see how it’s a maintenance thing.

dkh could be a good shout. From memory, last time I checked my KH was 7 but GH around 12. I have an RO unit but a reluctance to start using buckets again (WC with python currently) unless it’s really necessary.

Bites out of the leaves are possible I suppose. It could be the plecos, but there is definitely something other than that going on

I don’t fully recall the name of the hygrophila in the photo, but it wasn’t polysperma - australis something I think? Even so, should be fast growing

The plant to the left is rotala indica, which has deformed new leaves on some stems, others are fine and there is new healthy growth branching out on most stems

To the right I have ludwigia glandulosa which is looking quite healthy, and ludwigia palustris mini super red which has

 

[Matth22]

There is another hygrophila species which looks like H. Rosanervig called Hygrophila rosae australis.
I don't know if they need the same conditions but I have the rosae australis version & it grows in low light with no Co2! The topmost leaves show the pink colouring but the lower leaves remain green with white veins. 🙂

Rosae Australis! That’s the one!!

 

[xZaiox]

Could be Hygrophila polysperma 'Rosanervig' which likes the same growing conditions as the Rotala sp.

I can't speak for Rotala Indica (never grown it), but I've had H.Polysperma 'Rosanervig' in both low and high fertiliser (EI) tanks, and it never made much difference to me. It grew like a weed wherever it was. I do agree that some plants prefer lower fert regimes though.

I don't know if they need the same conditions but I have the rosae australis version & it grows in low light with no Co2! The topmost leaves show the pink colouring but the lower leaves remain green with white veins. 🙂

This is good info. Either way, whether it's the 'rosae australis' or 'rosanervig' variant, I would expect a different colouring to the green that the OP is getting, which suggests to me that the lighting is on the low end of the spectrum.

To address a couple of suggestions made already - tank flow is good. I recently added a mini power head to the opposite corner of the filter inlet/outlet to address a bit of a dead spot behind some driftwood. All plants are moving gently in the flow.

Fantastic

Light intensity wise, the ecotech radeons are pretty powerful and I’m not sure if they even need reducing further - happy to be wrong on this though as that’s an easy fix!

From their website, it seems the radeons are 95W? If the power is linear, then your 25% intensity would be providing 23.75W, so in total you'd have 47.5W of power in the tank. Now, realistically, wattage isn't a good metric to go by for plant growth since LEDs can vary in PAR outputs, but that still seems a little low to me. For comparison, the twinstar 900s (for 90cm width tanks) boasts 84W, and some chihiros lights go over 100W, the ADA solar RGB boasts 130W.

@oreo57 is the guy to ask about lighting, but to me, your intensity seems low. If your CO2 is good, then I'd even suggest doubling the intensity to 50% per LED. A lot of advice is peddled online to reduce the light intensity when algae is present, but the issue is that plants growing without adequate lighting will not be growing healthily, and that itself will contribute to algae growth. When plants grow healthily, algae tends to disappear.

I am religious with 50% weekly water changes. I can’t see how it’s a maintenance thing.

Great

dkh could be a good shout. From memory, last time I checked my KH was 7 but GH around 12. I have an RO unit but a reluctance to start using buckets again (WC with python currently) unless it’s really necessary.

dGH is generally less relevant to plant growth. High calcium may potentially lead to issues (i.e mulders chart), but not at a dGH of 12. dkH of 7 should be fine for most plant species.

My money is still on lighting - crank those guys up 😉

Edit: Now I've seen the pictures, your ludwigia glandulosa isn't even red?? Yeah, definitely lighting.

 

[Matth22]

I can't speak for Rotala Indica (never grown it), but I've had H.Polysperma 'Rosanervig' in both low and high fertiliser (EI) tanks, and it never made much difference to me. It grew like a weed wherever it was. I do agree that some plants prefer lower fert regimes though.

This is good info. Either way, whether it's the 'rosae australis' or 'rosanervig' variant, I would expect a different colouring to the green that the OP is getting, which suggests to me that the lighting is on the low end of the spectrum.

Fantastic

From their website, it seems the radeons are 95W? If the power is linear, then your 25% intensity would be providing 23.75W, so in total you'd have 47.5W of power in the tank. Now, realistically, wattage isn't a good metric to go by for plant growth since LEDs can vary in PAR outputs, but that still seems a little low to me. For comparison, the twinstar 900s (for 90cm width tanks) boasts 84W, and some chihiros lights go over 100W, the ADA solar RGB boasts 130W.

@oreo57 is the guy to ask about lighting, but to me, your intensity seems low. If your CO2 is good, then I'd even suggest doubling the intensity to 50% per LED. A lot of advice is peddled online to reduce the light intensity when algae is present, but the issue is that plants growing without adequate lighting will not be growing healthily, and that itself will contribute to algae growth. When plants grow healthily, algae tends to disappear.

Great

dGH is generally less relevant to plant growth. High calcium may potentially lead to issues (i.e mulders chart), but not at a dGH of 12. dkH of 7 should be fine for most plant species.

My money is still on lighting - crank those guys up 😉

Edit: Now I've seen the pictures, your ludwigia glandulosa isn't even red?? Yeah, definitely lighting.

Awesome! Thanks so much for everyone’s input. Lights cranked up!!

 

[xZaiox]

Awesome! Thanks so much for everyone’s input. Lights cranked up!!

Great, let us know how you get on. You may initially get a temporary worsening of algae, since the algae will also use the increased light, but if the plants start growing healthily then this will stabilize. Some plants may take longer than others to grow better if they are currently stunted - for some reason, stunted plants can take a while to unstunt, even in better conditions.

If the increased light results in better growth, you may eventually want to cut the tops off the plants and replant them, this is so you can discard the unhealthy growth at the bottom - it won't be as useful to the plant as the healthy new growth. Only do this when you have a good amount of healthy new growth. When you have a bunch of plants growing healthily, algae will diminish. Best of luck

 

[_Maq_]

I am religious with 50% weekly water changes. I can’t see how it’s a maintenance thing.

Just a general remark: Most tanks are not religious and maintenance must be in line with their pagan rituals.
In other words, you can't say that 50 % WC weekly reliably prevents any imbalance or disasters. The aquarist has to observe the tank and react to the situation, even if it's not Sunday.

 

[Matth22]

Yes that’s a fair point and call out on the use of word religious 😂

I probably don’t alter my water change routine at signs of unhealthy plants as I would unhealthy fish

 

[erwin123]

Agree that its important to monitor your tank and choose the water change frequency that is suitable.
I started off with weekly water changes, then moved to fortnightly, though it often ends up being every 3 weeks because I'm busy. I also find myself keeping slower-growing plants to reduce maintenance needs 😎


Plants still look healthy though. I just have more algae to scrape off the glass.... 🙂

 

[MichaelJ]

The aquarist has to observe the tank and react to the situation

You betcha... I've been maintaining my tanks pretty infrequently (slapdash if you will..) over the last 4-5 months... I recently did an extensive trim and cleanup, but the emergence of algae especially on the slow growers (Anubias) is still quite obvious - not nearly as bad as it was a few weeks ago though. It doesn't really bother me too much*... I am sure this very mature leanly dosed low tech tank (4 years in a couple of months) will be back on a prestine keel in no time with regular dosing and water changes.




* Ok, it bugs the crap out of me! … must be Vanadium deficiency

Cheers,
Michael

 

[erwin123]

You betcha... I've been maintaining my tanks pretty infrequently (slapdash if you will..) over the last 4-5 months... I recently did an extensive trim and cleanup, but the emergence of algae especially on the slow growers (Anubias) is still quite obvious - not nearly as bad as it was a few weeks ago though.



Cheers,
Michael

This was my tank after I returned from holiday last year. Actually apart from a few stem plants that grew like weeds, most of my plants only grew modestly. That led me to the realisation that if I removed more of the fast growing plants, I could have a longer interval between tank maintenance.... 😀