Not A Clue About EI Or Dry Ferts !

[chris1004]

Hi Swan900

Flourish excel and easy carbo are pretty much the same thing and work in the same way, it doesn't seem to matter which one you use although as I understand it Flourish Excel is the original and easycarbo is a product which tries to replicate Flourish Excel.

Double dosing with either product is fine at least for the short term that you'll need to get the algae into check. If the fish start to flick and rub themselves on the hard scape immediately after you've introduced it then you've overdone it. Do a water change immediately and the problem will be resolved. That's the best advice I can give you if your worried about using it. And remember after about 24 hours its broken down anyway.

It doesn't matter what time you dose your ferts, most of us seem to do it before lights on in the morning because its convenient to do it before we leave for work in the morning.

Truth of the matter is that the whole ethos of EI is to have unlimited nutrients available to the plants at all times, so if you're achieving this then why would it make a difference what time you topped it up?

Regards, Chris.

 

[Swan900]

Brilliant. Cheers Chris for the help. I'll get some EasyCarbo tomorrow and start dosing a little over what is said to be on the safe side and increase gradually until I can see the algae take a bashing. I also got another plant as you suggested in previous posts and bought a nice specimen of Bacopa Moneri. If I find a nice fast growing stem plant I will get it to add to my tank and see the effects of E.I! Thanks again!

 

[chris1004]

Hi,

Its a nice plant and have grown it myself but its not the sort of plant I was advising, it needs high lighting and it doesn't grow very big or very fast. What you need is something which will out compete the algae for the available nutrients, a large fast growing stem plant for instance, just until your other plants get established. Ambulia (Limnofilia sessiflora) fits the bill perfectly. When I grew this in my high tech EI dosed tank I was achieving on average about 10inches of new growth a week!!! That's why its often regarded as a weed. But its easy to propagate and replant so I just removed the whole plant and replanted fresh cuttings from it every few weeks.

Regards, Chris.

 

[ceg4048]

Plants do not compete with algae for nutrients any more than elephants compete with mice for food. If the water column is rich in nutrients all the time then that means algae have access to the same nutrients all the time. Algae are quicker, more efficient feeders, less complicated and have access to nutrients before any plant does. Nutrients must pass by algae before they cross the plant cell wall boundary, so this idea of competition is fantasy. It was invented by people who thought that nutrients cause algae. So if you adopt the principles of EI then this competition idea is a contradiction and should be terminated.

Also, Bacopa does not "need" high light. It needs high CO2. Here is Bacopa under duress from high light and low CO2;. This is under full tropical sunlight. Can you see the difference between the leaves out of water and those leaves under water? The submerged leaves are fried. Only when the stem exits the water and has access to CO2 can it make use of high light.


Cheers,

 

[Swan900]

Ok thanks Ceg & Chris. So in based on the last post its pointless me adding more plants I dont want due to the algae can still access and use the suspended nutrients in the water. I see. I will still go and purchase and dose the EasyCarbo to get rid of it fully, but over the past couple of days its reduced alot so thats good news. My ferts are not here yet but I will start them on Sunday. And dont worry I have injected C02 for the Bacopa. Thanks again for the help!

 

[Swan900]

Also in addition to my above post... Out of curiosity how long will an premade E.I fert batch last? Before it is inactive or goes off? Or does it go off? Thanks!

 

[ceg4048]

I think you might be missing the point. Nutrients don't cause algae. Therefore it doesn't matter whether you have lots of plants or not in this sense. Plants don't compete with algae for nutrients. Having more plants is always better than having fewer plants - but not if you don't feed them. If you have lots of plants and don't feed them you'll get algae. If you only have a few plants and you don't feed them then you'll get algae. Algae doesn't care about the nutrients. Algae attack when your plants are sick. Failure to feed your plants properly, whether you have a lot of them or not, makes them sick. Have you ever seen advertisements of starving people in third world countries? Well they get sick easily right? They also look thin. Our bodies are unable to ward off disease and parasites when we are malnourished. Well, this is what happens when plants are starved. Algae is the parasite that the plants are unable to ward off when they are malnourished and sick.

That is the proper analogy you should have in mind when you see or think about algae, not whether this is competing with that, or whether excess will cause this or that. Feed you plants, give them adequate CO2, clean their environment by doing water changes, removing muck/filth and don't overstress them with too much light. These are the basic principles.

Nutrients have no defined shelf life. Just like there is no shelf life for the salt sitting on your table. They will last until you use them. Sometime the trace mixes get fungus or mould if the temperature is too warm. Put a cap full of Excel in the mix to prevent the mould and carry on.

Cheers,

 

[chris1004]

Hi Clive /all

I never doubt your advice mate but I do have a quick question for you though with regard to the above.

Why then are we advised when setting up a planted tank to have at least 50% coverage. I always thought that it was so that the plants could out compete the algae for nutrients but I do follow your logic and excess ferts is indeed excess ferts after all so the original argument is obviously flawed but we're still advised to plant heavily from the outset.

The label that came with my Bacopa when I bought it stated that it needed high lighting that was what I was basing my advise on but I will bow to your superior knowledge, after all you've pretty much taught me most of what I know. 😉

Regards, Chris.

 

[ceg4048]

Hi Chris,
The whole "plant competing with algae" myth was invented simply because the real issue of why high plant biomass is important is very complicated, so I suspect it was easier to just issue forth this broad statement to perhaps be a proxy argument for the true explanation. The answer of why high plant biomass is important involves the symbiosis and interaction between plants and other organisms which share their environment. One could argue that it is the other organisms that do the competing and that plants help by stacking the deck in favour of these other organisms.

Study the image below for a while, and keep it in mind while studying the following link.
Check out page 2 of this thread mate => 27 litre scape - "Bearing new fruit"

Also have a look at this one => viewtopic.php?f=27&t=6738

So you see it's really a quite complicated issue and it's easy to just try to sum everything up with simple statements, but these statements don't do justice to the truth.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

 

[chris1004]

Oh mate your just the best buddy any planted tank enthusiast could wish for...

Another Clive information bombshell to digest. You gotta love em.

I understood that explanation in the link provided perfectly thanks again for taking the time to help me and others like me truly understand this hobby.

I'll be honest I'm leaning towards taking the red pill, but am a little afraid that the hole may get a lot deeper than my capability to understand. 🙂 🙂 🙂

Regards, Chris.

 

[Swan900]

I remember doing something similar not so long ago in A Level Biology. Good info though Ceg so thanks! Ive got better pictures of my tank now with my mediocre digital camera. Theres a little of BGA on the substrate but hopefully that will go with E.I as its already on its way out. I cant really think of a place to put a fast grower with my current scape Any ideas where to add one? But im sure it will be fine for E.I as it is and with my CO2 if not. Thanks!

 

[ceg4048]

.I'll be honest I'm leaning towards taking the red pill, but am a little afraid that the hole may get a lot deeper than my capability to understand. 🙂 🙂 🙂

That's what Alice said on her way to Wonderland...I think that also what Dorothy said on her way to Oz...Buckle your seat belt Dorothy, 'cause Kansas...is goin' bye bye...

I cant really think of a place to put a fast grower with my current scape Any ideas where to add one? But im sure it will be fine for E.I as it is and with my CO2 if not. Thanks!

Seems to me you can put something like an easy Ludwigia or Hygrophilla in any of the corners.

The BGA is an issue of either low NO3, or low flow, or inadequate filter maintenance as you might have discovered by now.

Cheers,