hinch
Member
OK so not strictly a planted tank thread but certainly a water chemistry thread and we have a few people here who are a bit good with chemistry.
In the planted tanks we know that we have to dose Nitrate and Phosphorus into the system to enable the plants to grow and maintain a high water quality.
In a fish only tank we know we have to change water often so as to keep the Nitrate down as there's nothing to absorb the Nitrate out of the water column and while its less toxic in high concentrations its bad.
This brings me nicely onto my next confusing point Reef Tanks!
There are lots of hearsay in the reefing world and lots of sweeping statements with no technical backup/research. People believe them as gospel in the same way as we believe light colour makes a different to plants I'll list a couple below before I get onto my main point.
First up PO4 causes algae!
I can't do the sciencey thing as organic chemistry confuses me massively however I can understand general principals. So we know PO4 when combined with other minerals will encourage plant growth and algae will grow instead of plants if not provided with enough carbon food via co2 for the plants to convert all the minerals to growth. ie: excess/unused minerals will grow algae instead of plants.
So in the reef area people spend fortunes (litterally! go check the prices) on stuff like rowaphos, skimmers and other chemicals / reactors etc just to add and/or remove PO4. Could the same effect not just be resolved by having an excessive amount of plants or encouraging algae growth somewhere which would then use up the minerals in the tank you can then simply remove the plant and therefore remove the PO4 from the equation.
A few people are now experimenting with stuff like Chaeto algae growth or running algae scrubbers in their sumps to remove the PO4 etc but they're running it in conjunction with the other more traditional sources.
Would it not make sense to simply have the entire sump as a massive algae growing tank where dirty water goes in the plants in the sump absorb all the nasties and simply return clean water out the other end? Exactly the same way we do with plants when we say plant heavy and you can support more fish/require less actual filtration.
Vodka is the best source of carbon which removes PO4 and NO3.
This kinda ties in with above I guess people are dosing 80% proof + vodka directly to their tanks as a carbon source as organic carbon removes NO3 & PO4!
I can't decide if this is bullshit or not as people are reporting results but to me dumping vodka in a tank is a bad idea. Surely if you have proper mineral removal from say algae removal above you wouldn't need additional carbon sources to remove it? Failing that why use vodka surely the liquid carbon we use in planted tanks is a highly concentrated organic carbon source could that be used instead of vodka.
Test kits are vital as they're the only accurate way of measuring Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrate, PO4, TDS, Cond etc etc etc.....
This is my personal bug bear and they swear by test kits blindly! I generally ignore them and as long as I have the right salinity of water and right PH then I ignore everything else and see what the corals/fish do as to what I need to adjust but I still use all the equipment as its whats considered required and tbh I know no better to argue with people. I do know that the skimmer removes gunky stinky stuff etc and that stuff dies if it stops working, but I don't really know why. I do know based off what Clive/Darrel have posted previously though that its almost impossible to measure some of these things - that the Reefers use as reference points and gospel - with a £30 over the counter dip strip kit.
At the moment even my little reef tank has nearly 3k of equipment running just to "keep the water clean" the cost not only of purchase but also of running all the pumps and equipment and constant cleaning/refilling/ingredients etc is quite honnestly scary I daren't add it up.
I'm trying to find a better way of keeping my tank stable while reducing the maintenance and the costs! I'd much prefer to harvest a bucket full of algae once a month than have to clean skimmers and refill reactors and do massive water changes once a week.
A little related reading
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/8/chemistry
http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/show ... p?t=588481
Again not plant related but chemistry and tbh I trust a few people here alot more than I trust 99% of the reefers on reef forums who bang on about you have to buy XXX bit of kit for £000000 because it keeps your PO4 level at zero with only £000 of media a week!
In the planted tanks we know that we have to dose Nitrate and Phosphorus into the system to enable the plants to grow and maintain a high water quality.
In a fish only tank we know we have to change water often so as to keep the Nitrate down as there's nothing to absorb the Nitrate out of the water column and while its less toxic in high concentrations its bad.
This brings me nicely onto my next confusing point Reef Tanks!
There are lots of hearsay in the reefing world and lots of sweeping statements with no technical backup/research. People believe them as gospel in the same way as we believe light colour makes a different to plants I'll list a couple below before I get onto my main point.
- Bioballs in filters are nitrate factories.
- PO4 causes algae.
- Vodka is the best source of carbon which removes PO4 and NO3.
- Diatoms are caused by PO4.
- Test kits are vital as they're the only accurate way of measuring Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrate, PO4, TDS, Cond etc etc etc.....
First up PO4 causes algae!
I can't do the sciencey thing as organic chemistry confuses me massively however I can understand general principals. So we know PO4 when combined with other minerals will encourage plant growth and algae will grow instead of plants if not provided with enough carbon food via co2 for the plants to convert all the minerals to growth. ie: excess/unused minerals will grow algae instead of plants.
So in the reef area people spend fortunes (litterally! go check the prices) on stuff like rowaphos, skimmers and other chemicals / reactors etc just to add and/or remove PO4. Could the same effect not just be resolved by having an excessive amount of plants or encouraging algae growth somewhere which would then use up the minerals in the tank you can then simply remove the plant and therefore remove the PO4 from the equation.
A few people are now experimenting with stuff like Chaeto algae growth or running algae scrubbers in their sumps to remove the PO4 etc but they're running it in conjunction with the other more traditional sources.
Would it not make sense to simply have the entire sump as a massive algae growing tank where dirty water goes in the plants in the sump absorb all the nasties and simply return clean water out the other end? Exactly the same way we do with plants when we say plant heavy and you can support more fish/require less actual filtration.
Vodka is the best source of carbon which removes PO4 and NO3.
This kinda ties in with above I guess people are dosing 80% proof + vodka directly to their tanks as a carbon source as organic carbon removes NO3 & PO4!
I can't decide if this is bullshit or not as people are reporting results but to me dumping vodka in a tank is a bad idea. Surely if you have proper mineral removal from say algae removal above you wouldn't need additional carbon sources to remove it? Failing that why use vodka surely the liquid carbon we use in planted tanks is a highly concentrated organic carbon source could that be used instead of vodka.
Test kits are vital as they're the only accurate way of measuring Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrate, PO4, TDS, Cond etc etc etc.....
This is my personal bug bear and they swear by test kits blindly! I generally ignore them and as long as I have the right salinity of water and right PH then I ignore everything else and see what the corals/fish do as to what I need to adjust but I still use all the equipment as its whats considered required and tbh I know no better to argue with people. I do know that the skimmer removes gunky stinky stuff etc and that stuff dies if it stops working, but I don't really know why. I do know based off what Clive/Darrel have posted previously though that its almost impossible to measure some of these things - that the Reefers use as reference points and gospel - with a £30 over the counter dip strip kit.
At the moment even my little reef tank has nearly 3k of equipment running just to "keep the water clean" the cost not only of purchase but also of running all the pumps and equipment and constant cleaning/refilling/ingredients etc is quite honnestly scary I daren't add it up.
I'm trying to find a better way of keeping my tank stable while reducing the maintenance and the costs! I'd much prefer to harvest a bucket full of algae once a month than have to clean skimmers and refill reactors and do massive water changes once a week.
A little related reading
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/8/chemistry
http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/show ... p?t=588481
Again not plant related but chemistry and tbh I trust a few people here alot more than I trust 99% of the reefers on reef forums who bang on about you have to buy XXX bit of kit for £000000 because it keeps your PO4 level at zero with only £000 of media a week!