New planted tank - Struggling a little!

[roadmaster]

I have fairly hard water at 12dgh, and that,combined with sharp increase in TDS from the mineral salt's is too much I think, for some soft water species I have barely been able to keep in said water before.
I tend to keep fishes that do better with my moderately hard water now day's. I have managed to keep domestic Discus in said water minus the mineral salt's in the past
Now,,If I mix Distilled water or R/O water with my tap water ,I am more easily able to keep fishes such as the German blue rams and some species that are said to prefer more acidic water.(But have become lazier about mixing,storing water)
Me thinks if one has soft water to begin with,then a bump in TDS from the mineral salt's would have maybe less of an affect over time and acclimation to the water.
But maybe if your already keeping fishes that prefer softer water in more alkaline condition's,then the effect's could be less tolerable for them.

 

[tayloss]

This certainly has opened up a discussion that I wasn’t expecting based on my Marine keeping side where testing is quite important to keeping corals happy.. mainly salinity levels and Ca/Mag.

I guess my want for ornamental shrimps has pushed me in a direction of looking at TDS as that’s the value they provide for the water they are happy with, although some are adaptable given time etc.

Please don’t think I’m hooked on testing anything else and haven’t since starting this thread apart from TDS levels and PH to see if it’s stable between lights out/on etc..

I am not sure what TDS is in terms of shrimp keeping as would imagine that’s a mineral TDS from the salts added.. my thinking is that if I have a baseline of sub 200 and the maximum is 250, I have a buffer to add the fertiliser without too much of an issue?

If this was a planted only tank, then of course I wouldn’t really mind what the levels are and wouldn’t have a buffering substrate to create a lower PH as I could use tap water..

The water on the south coast comes through the chalk of the South Downs and has a GH of 18 and TDS of 280. I had issues keeping some freshwater fish in my other tank (Normani Lampeye, Green nano Rasboara) when I used tap water directly.. I now do a 50/50 mix and haven’t had a death since... this is a complex hobby and agree that people chase numbers, but doesn’t there have to be a certain eye on parameters for the fish you are keeping?

This was my own experience and had plenty of deaths even after being told that fish are adaptable to any water.. once the GH/KH and TDS has fallen, the fish are more active.

Thanks,
Chris


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[roadmaster]

Fish food's,fish waste,dirty filter's,decaying plant matter all left unchecked as Clive mention's, likely to have more of negative impact as they too contribute to TDS.
TDS from mineral salt's alone would be temporary depending on plant mass drawing from them me thinks.
Still could be too much if one is keeping critter's or fishes too far from preferred condition's.IMHO

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Then, some years later, breeders who were fed up with the hassle of chasing TDS and pH reported breeding discus in higher TDS and higher pH than anyone could imagine. Now, discus acclimated to higher TDS water are commonplace.

Yes, I have found that my Rams will tend to spawn regardless even with a TDS bordering on 300, they might even have a go at higher numbers but as these higher numbers are more than likely far too much waste in the tank there seems little point seeing how high they would still spawn at to the detriment of everything else. I also know a local Discus breeder who again says the numbers don't matter as long as the water is clean and well oxygenated. I hear rumours that some Discus happily breed in Portland cement in Germany if acclimatised properly, don't know how true that is though. One thing I've never got to the bottom of though is egg and fry survival rates in such water. I can see how and adult fish will have the physiological ability to adjust over time but with eggs they are held inside the fish in it's own unique environment as they have done for millennia then exposed to something that doesn't fit into the environment its DNA was designed for but I suppose egg adaptability under differing conditions is a topic for another day.

It was very easy to estimate how much was due to salts and how much was due to pollution. If you fill the tank with water at water change time and take a reading then that's the baseline. Then dose and take a reading after 15 minutes or so. The difference in the reading should be a fair estimate of how much was due to the salts. By the next water change, if you take a reading prior to dumping the water then that reading minus what you measured and calculate for added salts ought to be what due to everything other than the salts, more or less.

This is something I carried out as an exercise following reading up on Duck weed index and trying to find a happy place between plants and supposedly optimum parameters for the Blue Rams with good effect. The duck weed isn't fail safe though so the rest of the plants still need monitoring. Most people tend to have their lilly pipes and spray bars close to the surface so it stands to reason that that's a good place to be living if you’re a plant regarding access to nutrition, nothing to say that its making its ways down to the bottom of stems though.

The OP should go to great lengths to keep his tank scrupulously clean with large and frequent water changes, but the water column should be dosed properly to ensure the plants health. Again, it's no problem to dose on the lean side. There is plenty of margin of error in the recipe if the hobbyists so chooses, but it's not something to fret over. The extra oxygen from the healthy plants, and all the other amazing things that plants do will more than make up for the increase in TDS.

For sure, hence I suggested if the OP is having issues and the concern is surrounding TDS and fancy shrimp then the thing to adjust would be the RO agent which has far less importance and not the ferts. Stick with the ferts at the EI levels to rule that side out to concentrate on co2/health/flow. I didn't realise until you said that the RO water only needs a couple things to make things more fish/invert friendly. As the OP already has the RO agent seems easier for him to continue using that at a lesser dose and by all accounts could come down as low as he wanted with that just so the water has something in it. Magnesium is already in the fert recipe he already has. Due to me having soft tapwater with free PO4 I've never bothered with RO. The closest I've ever came was back in the day when I had a breeding pair of Blue Cobalt Discus and I bought an API tapwater purifier, I remember there was mention of "vital electrolytes" and various minerals probably already covered with the ferts anyway that were added in super concentrated form I guess but this was probably as most things are in the industry snake oil generating more after market sales but that's above my pay grade. Easiest solution one would assume for the OP would be to just cut some of his tapwater with the RO and be done.

 

[tayloss]

For sure, hence I suggested if the OP is having issues and the concern is surrounding TDS and fancy shrimp then the thing to adjust would be the RO agent which has far less importance and not the ferts. Stick with the ferts at the EI levels to rule that side out to concentrate on co2/health/flow. I didn't realise until you said that the RO water only needs a couple things to make things more fish/invert friendly. As the OP already has the RO agent seems easier for him to continue using that at a lesser dose and by all accounts could come down as low as he wanted with that just so the water has something in it. Magnesium is already in the fert recipe he already has. Due to me having soft tapwater with free PO4 I've never bothered with RO. The closest I've ever came was back in the day when I had a breeding pair of Blue Cobalt Discus and I bought an API tapwater purifier, I remember there was mention of "vital electrolytes" and various minerals probably already covered with the ferts anyway that were added in super concentrated form I guess but this was probably as most things are in the industry snake oil generating more after market sales but that's above my pay grade. Easiest solution one would assume for the OP would be to just cut some of his tapwater with the RO and be done.

The issue with the RO/Tapwater mix is that I need the KH to stay at 0 for the shrimps and to continue the buffering elements of the substrate.

Anyway, this morning, the post lady delivered my 500ml of KNO3 🙂 My ferts are getting low, so its a good time to knock up some more with, but l am going to have a separate dose of KNO3 in a different bottle as I use the all-in-one mix in my freshwater fish tank to feed to plants there..

The adventure continues... 🙂

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

The issue with the RO/Tapwater mix is that I need the KH to stay at 0 for the shrimps and to continue the buffering elements of the substrate.

I could be wrong but AFAIK shrimps don't have an issue with KH. I have kept RCS and CRS in water with 4KH and both quite happily bred. As for the buffering elements of the substrate. I have to admit I'm not sure what you mean, substrate is substrate to me, I've had equally good results with tesco cat litter as I have with Tropica Soil. My understanding is that as long as it has a high cec value or the ability to absorb and store nutrients in it. As for ph you will be lowering that with the addition of co2 and if it's ph swings that are the worried about the addition of some KH will solve this as is in your tapwater.

I could be missing something though, I'm just a novice. For me the substrate is something for my plants to get their roots into so they don't blow round the tank. Whatever that substrate is buffering I'm guessing it's going to be used up within a couple months regardless of what you do. If it keeps water soft and acidic as most of them claim, is this not the equivalent of using softwater and acidifying it with co2?

 

[tayloss]

So the substrate is Dennerle Scaper soil and has the following descriptions:

Scaper's Soil
Nutrient substrate for strong plant growth
With all essential minerals and trace elements
With fertile volcanic soil
With bio-filtering function for healthy, clear water
Actively creates soft, slightly acidic water (approx. pH 6-6.5, KH 0-2 °d)
Twice-baked – lasting water stability
Ideal in combination with CO2 fertilisation
With valuable humic and fulvic acids
Ideal for plants, fish and shrimps that require soft, slightly acidic water
Suitable for bottom filters (shrimp breeding)
Special nutrient formula – does not promote algae
Scaper’s Soil is an active substrate specifically developed for aquaria. It creates slightly acidic, soft water like that in which most tropical animals and plants live. Scaper’s Soil is ideally suited to plant aquaria, especially aquascaping and shrimp aquaria.

Along with this comment, which is were I was mentioning the RO with minerals:-

Scaper's Soil is a relatively new soil by the famous plant and nano aquarium specialists at Dennerle. It usually buffers the water around between pH 6 and 6.5. The soil will leach small amounts of ammonia and nitrite, which are not toxic to inhabitants at this low pH level. This helps to cycle new filters and gives living plants a real growth boost. After a while the soil will stop leaching ammonia. You can stock the tank within some days to a week. Please note: to guarantee a long lifetime of the substrate, active soils should always be used with reminieralised RO water rather than tap. Tap water, depending on hardness, will exhaust the substrate considerably sooner.

I don’t want to get too hung up, as am just listening to an aquascaping podcast on EI dosing and that the need for testing is null and void 🙂




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[AverageWhiteBloke]

I don’t want to get too hung up, as am just listening to an aquascaping podcast on EI dosing and that the need for testing is null and void

Haha, certain testing anyway.

That stuff from Dennerle seems to be in the aid of cycling the tank initially fishless. It releases ammonia which kick starts the nitrogen cycle giving the first ingredient as most of these things do. The ammonia is toxic to fish at ph above 7 so it has some acids in there to keep the ph below 7 preventing ammonia becoming toxic. I guess if you add high KH water this would neutralise the acids but in the long term the acids will deplete whatever and the ammonia will stop leaching and convert to nitrite/ nitrate then out. Any ammonia leaching after that will be dealt with by the plants and bacteria so fast it won't have time to show up on any test kit. As long as it's going to absorb nutrients (which it will) I don't think over the long term it matters which water you use as you will be adding the nutrients directly to the water where the majority get absorbed through the leaves.

 

[ceg4048]

I don’t want to get too hung up, as am just listening to an aquascaping podcast on EI dosing and that the need for testing is null and void 🙂

Yes, you are getting hung up by the neck and will flounder if you pay attention to this kind of propaganda. There is no requirement to have zero KH for any fauna.

Cheers,

 

[tayloss]

Maybe I should change the RO agent to add some KH, I just don’t know what will happen to the PH?

They mentioned that they only test PH and KH and never the others..

The shrimpkeepers advise GH adjustment only with a buffering substrate and now I need some KH as well? Will the CO2 injection keep the PH below 7 for the shrimp or should I give up on the idea of the ornate shrimp and go for a more common less fussy shrimp?

Thanks,
Chris


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[AverageWhiteBloke]

They mentioned that they only test PH and KH and never the others.

Don't know who "They" are mate. Post in the invert section of this forum with which type of shrimp you want. I'm sure someone will advise on water parameters. some experienced shrimp keepers here. As Clive says though no, you don't need 0KH water and if you want some KH just put a litre of dechlorinated tapwater in your tank. RO water is just too raw on its own without using your RO agent for anything to survive in it.

 

[tayloss]

Cool, I haven’t ventured too far into the forum as yet!! I’ll go and explore 🙂


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[AverageWhiteBloke]

You'll be surprised what you find in here. Its a cool place to hang out to my detriment, I never seem to get any office work done after I check in to see what's going on 😀

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

I think it's maybe "buffering" that's threw you off the scent here. generally buffering is used in the context of preventing sudden acidic drops when you relate it to KH but your substrate buffers the ph down preventing it from ph rises, obviously water with high KH will counter that acid drop your substarte is trying to provide hence Dennerle's advice. Reading back through the post I think maybe where the confusion has came in maybe.

 

[tayloss]

After a good nights sleep, I’ve decided that this is going to be a planted only tank and am not going to worry about the PH or other parameters.

So, if the substrate depletes, it’s not going to be an issue as I’m not worried about it.. so, to recover the situation, it sounds like a 50/50 mix of RO/Tap will help? I’ll have to do it slowly as not to shock the plants?

I’ll use the RO agent on a Shrimp only tank, if the wife will allow another tank!!

The buffering I was advise was to help keep the water softer for the shrimp as they require a PH below 6.. as I already have another tank that uses 50/50, the PH is at 7.5, obviously this tank will be below that until the substrate is exhausted. Not sure how long it will take tho...

What affect would it have if I removed the CO2, would I still need the fertiliser?

Perhaps that’s a better option to drive the tank?


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[tayloss]

Just a little update on progress.. changed my mind and purchased some blue velvet shrimps and introduced them today... they jumped straight onto the algae and started munching away and also swimming about quite happily... not sure if it takes a while for them to be unhappy or it’s an instant sign?

PH is stable at around 6-6.2 and was advised by other shrimp keepers at my local LFS (who happen to have a shrimp open day!!) not to add any KH to the tank with a buffering substrate and that they will adapt to the conditions presented..

I opted for 4 as a starter and got 6 by surprise 🙂 I’ll monitor closing over the next few days, but they seem to be eating etc..

I guess only time will tel huh?!?


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[tayloss]

I’ve decided to remove the CO2 system from the tank as it’s not helping with the algae issue and the shrimps aren’t happy.. so, can see me turning this into a shrimp only tank as it’s harder to run planted than even I thought... not sure if I need to dose daily ferts or turn to weekly?

Shrimps are ok, but the algae is just growing out of control...

Thanks, chris


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