Need some help with RO water info

[PlantMan216]

So I plan on getting an RO filter for my new scape and had some questions I can’t seem to understand myself with all the info I’m reading. There’s just so much info and different ways to do things that it gets a bit confusing for me.

I’ll be starting my tank off with a month long dark start, is this a good time to test water parameters and lock in everything for PH, GH, KH and TDS? Or will the actual start be different as that is when plants, light, co2 and ferts are being added?

As for water changes once the tank is up and running with plants and shrimp/fish. Should I remineralize the RO before adding it to the tank.
Also do I mineralize for good tds or am I supposed to match the tds of the tank water?

I plan to use SeaChem Equilibrium as I saw it doesn’t raise KH. I have a good amount of seriyu stone in the tank however so should I be worried of low KH still and fluctuating PH?

Also what’s the deal with mixing tap and RO? Does it actually work well or is the SeaChem a better route to go?

Not sure if there are things I’m missing so if there is any important info I should know about feel free to add that in! Thank you!

 

[PlantMan216]

I’ll also add what I might do from the info I got on a green aqua video. But basically add strait RO to the tank. After 5 min measure TDS then add minerals to get it around 120 TDS.

However I’m not sure what specifics need to be done after the initial start and for water changes etc to keep everything balanced(as my first questions state)

 

[MichaelJ]

I’ll be starting my tank off with a month long dark start, is this a good time to test water parameters and lock in everything for PH, GH, KH and TDS?

I am not too familiar with dark start, but whatever water you add to the tank should be consistent and "locked" in from the get go. For starters, do not worry about pH and TDS for now... those parameters tend to sort out themselves based on your fertilizer dosing approach, dGH and dKH targets. Unless you go overboard you will find yourself with a very sensible TDS - What you want to see however is that your TDS (and parameters in general) remains stable.

Also do I mineralize for good tds or am I supposed to match the tds of the tank water?

You remineralize for the desired dGH - that is, your targeted Calcium and Magnesium content and Possibly dKH contents if you decide to do so.

Lets start with dGH: Although plants needs both Calcium and especially Magnesium, this is mainly a livestock consideration... How much you need to remineralize depends on what sort of livestock you want to keep. If you only keep say soft water fish you can dose very little, but if you plan to keep shrimps and ornamental snails (invertebrates) you need a little more. A fair range for soft water fish only is 1-4 dGH ... with invertebrates go for 4-6 dGH in a Calcium to Magnesium ratio of 3:1 ... if you target a dGH at the lower end increase the Magnesium amount a bit.

dKH: If you're adding CO2 you may want to have a bit of dKH to ensure you have some buffering capacity - dKH (or alkalinity) essentially determine your waters resistance to pH change (higher dKH equals higher resistance to pH change). Typically when you inject CO2 you will see a 0.5 - 1.0 drop in pH over the course of the day - if your pH before CO2 comes on is already low - say 6.5 you may want to increase the dKH. There are various approaches to this; some essentially don't bother about dKH and keep it at zero and others add a little bit like 1-2 dKH - again it's mostly a livestock consideration - some livestock are more sensitive to low pH and the drop, others don't care.... A low dKH (alkalinity) is desirable as it will make it much easier to keep your water acidic (pH below 7) which in turn will make fertilizer dosing much easier and promote uptake by the plants and lower precipitation of certain minerals such as iron and of course the soft water species will appreciate it as well.

Should I remineralize the RO before adding it to the tank.

Yes

I plan to use SeaChem Equilibrium as I saw it doesn’t raise KH.

You can use that, but I do not recommend it. Use food grade Gypsum Salt (CaSO4) and food grade Epsom Salt (MgSO4) instead - cheaply available on Amazon. Yes, instead of one container of something you need two, but it's much cleaner and wont add all sorts of other additives that you do not need such as Potassium in abundance. You already made the choice of doing RO... why mess it up with an ill-conceived commercial product? If you ask us about your desired dGH and your water change amount, we will calculate the amounts for you if needed - or you can use the excellent IFC Calculator or Rotala calulator.

I have a good amount of seriyu stone in the tank however so should I be worried of low KH still and fluctuating PH?

Seriyu stone will often leach Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) if your water is acidic - essentially raise the dKH and in turn the pH - so it’s somewhat self regulating… To what extent and at what pH this becomes a practical issue I do not know to be honest - I would be cautious however.

Also what’s the deal with mixing tap and RO? Does it actually work well or is the SeaChem a better route to go?

Mixing tap and RO is an option if you feel it's too involved to mix your own dry salts. It's frequently recommended around here, but you will have to know your tap water parameters well.. and how much they fluctuate throughout the year... which can be quite a lot depending on how the water is sourced and treated or if your tap is softened with a household water softener which is quite common in the US. My advice is to stick to the dry salts since you already made the decision to go all the way by getting into RO...

I hope some of this helps!

Cheers,
Michael

 

[MichaelJ]

I’ll also add what I might do from the info I got on a green aqua video. But basically add strait RO to the tank. After 5 min measure TDS then add minerals to get it around 120 TDS.

I didn’t watch the video so I do not know the context, but it sounds like dubious advice.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[PlantMan216]

I am not too familiar with dark start, but whatever water you add to the tank should be consistent and "locked" in from the get go. For starters, do not worry about pH and TDS for now... those parameters tend to sort out themselves based on your fertilizer dosing approach, dGH and dKH targets. Unless you go overboard you will find yourself with a very sensible TDS - What you want to see however is that your TDS (and parameters in general) remains stable.


You remineralize for the desired dGH - that is, your targeted Calcium and Magnesium content and Possibly dKH contents if you decide to do so.

Lets start with dGH: Although plants needs both Calcium and especially Magnesium, this is mainly a livestock consideration... How much you need to remineralize depends on what sort of livestock you want to keep. If you only keep say soft water fish you can dose very little, but if you plan to keep shrimps and ornamental snails (invertebrates) you need a little more. A fair range for soft water fish only is 1-4 dGH ... with invertebrates go for 4-6 dGH in a Calcium to Magnesium ratio of 3:1 ... if you target a dGH at the lower end increase the Magnesium amount a bit.

dKH: If you're adding CO2 you may want to have a bit of dKH to ensure you have some buffering capacity - dKH (or alkalinity) essentially determine your waters resistance to pH change (higher dKH equals higher resistance to pH change). Typically when you inject CO2 you will see a 0.5 - 1.0 drop in pH over the course of the day - if your pH before CO2 comes on is already low - say 6.5 you may want to increase the dKH. There are various approaches to this; some essentially don't bother about dKH and keep it at zero and others add a little bit like 1-2 dKH - again it's mostly a livestock consideration - some livestock are more sensitive to low pH and the drop, others don't care.... A low dKH (alkalinity) is desirable as it will make it much easier to keep your water acidic (pH below 7) which in turn will make fertilizer dosing much easier and promote uptake and lower precipitation of certain minerals such as iron and of course the soft water species will appreciate it as well.


Yes


You can use that, but I do not recommend it. Use food grade Gypsum Salt (CaSO4) and food grade Epsom Salt (MgSO4) instead - cheaply available on Amazon. Yes, instead of one container of something you need two, but it's much cleaner and wont add all sorts of other additives that you do not need such as Potassium in abundance. You already made the choice of doing RO... why mess it up with an ill-conceived commercial product? If you ask us about your desired dGH and your water change amount, we will calculate the amounts for you if needed - or you can use the excellent IFC Calculator or Rotala calulator.


Seriyu stone will often leach Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) if your water is acidic. To what extent and at what pH this becomes a practical issue I do not know to be honest - I would be cautious.


Mixing tap and RO is an option if you feel it's too involved to mix your own dry salts. It's frequently recommended around here, but you will have to know you tap water parameters well.. whether they fluctuate throughout the year... which can be quite a lot depending on how the water is sourced or if your tap is softened with a household water softener which is quite common in the US. My advice is to stick to the dry salts since you already made the decision to go all the way by getting into RO...

I hope some of this helps!

Cheers,
Michael

Thank you, this actually cleared up a bit of back and forth I've seen online and most likely will go with the food-grade salts as you recommended. When I do get to the start ill throw in my ideals and see if I can get proper dose amounts if needed but till that then ill be researching about that specifically and try to figure out the calculator myself first. Thanks again!!

 

[PlantMan216]

I didn’t watch the video so I do not know the context, but it sounds like dubious advice.

Cheers,
Michael

Actually I do have some info now if you could lmk what you think.....
Ideally I'd like to lock in my parameters at:
PH: ~6.5 - 6.8
GH: 8
KH 4

I plan to have Galaxy Rasboras and Cherry Shrimp. Please let me know if the parameters I listed is not ideal given this livestock (seems okay from what I've read so far).
Plants: HC Cuba, Anubias, Buce, Flame & Riccardia moss, Hydrocotyle Verticillata, Marsilea Hirsuta, Cryptocoryne Parva, Pogo Helferi, Alternanthera Variegatus, Mini Bolbitis, Rotala Indica Green, Alternanthera Bettzickiana, Repens
The scape does have ADA Amazonia (ADA base nutrients & Amazonia pellets underneath), wood, and Seiryu Stone.

The two salts you mentioned I'm assuming only affect GH, what would be the best additive for KH?

Since I plan to do a dark start (roughly a month: will still do 1 water change per week) should I keep a close eye on the KH since I have that stone in there (to see how much it raises over time) or should I just lock in my GH and KH to what I want, add it into the tank and not worry about it. If so what should I look out for and what would I need to do/not do? I am not sure if the added ammonia has any effect on the acidity of water i.e. causing the stone to dissolve faster. As for PH should I expect it to stay the same as the RO? C02 will not be running during the dark start but after that month when I plant and turn on the lights it will as well as ferts. Also in case this info may be useful, my tap parameters I found from a year ago say PH-7.6, HR PH-8.2, GH 161.1 ppm, KH 143.2-161.1 ppm.

Below is the fert. schedule I plan to try out for this new scape. I'll be using the Seachem brands and start out with the rec. dose on the bottle and adjust from there (60p tank).
I also will try to plan to make it a more lean dosing

Week 1:
Mon: K
Wed: Fe+K
Fri: K
Sat: Part water change 20-50%

Week 2:
Mon: K
Wed: NO3+PO4
Fri: K|
Sat: Part water change 20-50%

If I'm out of town(someone looking over):
Mon: Flourish
Wed: Flourish Adv.
Fri: K
Sat: Part water change 20-50%

 

[MichaelJ]

Thank you, this actually cleared up a bit of back and forth I've seen online and most likely will go with the food-grade salts as you recommended. When I do get to the start ill throw in my ideals and see if I can get proper dose amounts if needed but till that then ill be researching about that specifically and try to figure out the calculator myself first. Thanks again!!

Just curious… do you have a water report from your city?

Cheers,
Michael

 

[PlantMan216]

Just curious… do you have a water report from your city?

Cheers,
Michael

https://www.marinwater.org/sites/default/files/2023-04/AWQR_English_2023_PRINT.pdf

This is their report from 2023

 

[Iain Sutherland]

Hi and welcome.

I'd start off with asking why you want to go RO, unless you have very specific requirements for planned inhabitants, then I would always advise to use what comes out of your tap if you can.

Making it as easy as possible will generally give you better results overall as it will be more consistent and you will likely enjoy maintenance more.

You didn't mention the tank size but do consider the time needed making RO and storing it to come up to temp etc few things are more annoying than having time and motivation to give your tank love then remembering you don't have any water ready (guaranteed to happen sooner or later)

 

[PlantMan216]

Hi and welcome.

I'd start off with asking why you want to go RO, unless you have very specific requirements for planned inhabitants, then I would always advise to use what comes out of your tap if you can.

Making it as easy as possible will generally give you better results overall as it will be more consistent and you will likely enjoy maintenance more.

You didn't mention the tank size but do consider the time needed making RO and storing it to come up to temp etc few things are more annoying than having time and motivation to give your tank love then remembering you don't have any water ready (guaranteed to happen sooner or later)

Hello! Thank you!

Thought I mentioned it but it is an ADA 60p (60L or 17 gallon)

My first 60p scape (2 yrs ago) had lots of algae issues and stunted plant growth which I’m 100% sure is not just because of water quality. However after the minimal research I’ve done so far in this realm I really like the idea of taking out all contaminants, adding my own and having “full” controll on everything going in my tank. The more I learn about custom remineralization the more excited and less confused I get as well. I find it very interesting and fun while I understand at times it might be anoyying, stressful and confusing haha.

Also for the first scape I kind of went into a high tech tank blind and while that was a big pain in the a** at times I did learn a lot fast. Mistakes were made by not doing enough research (partly because I did not know what to reasearch specifically). This time around I upped my filter from an ADA super jet ES 300 (from what I calculated is not ideal flow rate for that tank) to an Oase BioMaster 600 thermo (maybe slightly overkill but I’ll be controlling it if it really is too much). Also I never knew the original sponge cubes and charcoal bag that comes with the super jet was only good at the beginning of a tank and real bio media was best. I’ve done a tons of research since taking down that tank and water parameters and how ferts work/effect is the main topic I’m trying to fully master atm. Another reason why I’d like go this route is because I learn best when I’m physically doing it myself. I know I’m just scratching the surface of RO and getting a real in depth understanding of water parameters but I do have some time before I restart the 60p and would like to “master” this topic by then.

 

[Iain Sutherland]

Hello! Thank you!

Thought I mentioned it but it is an ADA 60p (60L or 17 gallon)

My first 60p scape (2 yrs ago) had lots of algae issues and stunted plant growth which I’m 100% sure is not just because of water quality. However after the minimal research I’ve done so far in this realm I really like the idea of taking out all contaminants, adding my own and having “full” controll on everything going in my tank. The more I learn about custom remineralization the more excited and less confused I get as well. I find it very interesting and fun while I understand at times it might be anoyying, stressful and confusing haha.

Also for the first scape I kind of went into a high tech tank blind and while that was a big pain in the a** at times I did learn a lot fast. Mistakes were made by not doing enough research (partly because I did not know what to reasearch specifically). This time around I upped my filter from an ADA super jet ES 300 (from what I calculated is not ideal flow rate for that tank) to an Oase BioMaster 600 thermo (maybe slightly overkill but I’ll be controlling it if it really is too much). Also I never knew the original sponge cubes and charcoal bag that comes with the super jet was only good at the beginning of a tank and real bio media was best. I’ve done a tons of research since taking down that tank and water parameters and how ferts work/effect is the main topic I’m trying to fully master atm. Another reason why I’d like go this route is because I learn best when I’m physically doing it myself. I know I’m just scratching the surface of RO and getting a real in depth understanding of water parameters but I do have some time before I restart the 60p and would like to “master” this topic by then.

Fair enough then fella, sounds like your going in eyes wide open and wanting to learn. IME using RO does reduce the likely hood of algae if the alternative is high tds hard water, don't get me wrong, it's no silver bullet and hard water high tech beauties exist is abundance, just look at Aquarium Gardens. 👍🏻

 

[PlantMan216]

Fair enough then fella, sounds like your going in eyes wide open and wanting to learn. IME using RO does reduce the likely hood of algae if the alternative is high tds hard water, don't get me wrong, it's no silver bullet and hard water high tech beauties exist is abundance, just look at Aquarium Gardens. 👍🏻

Yeah! I see that it is better overall despite the work and do understand that it is "no silver bullet". Being able to learn and understand more about my own aquarium and the micro details that is happening within adds a whole new level of enjoyment!

 

[LFNfan]

Hi!
Interesting you are planning to dose N and P (only) once in two weeks, and K multiple times over that period.
My approach is macros 4x week, micros 3x, alternating days + 1x Fe on the micros day after water change. I know some front-load ferts in one big whack for the week, but I have not before come across the schedule you describe above. I am pretty much a newbie so always learning!

 

[palcente]

You will need to test regularly until you know what you are doing. Start with little light, but plenty co2. Bump the light little by little over couple of months. Figure out the baseline water parameters you want. Buy few tests and measure before and after each water change until you get hang of it. Check out the calculator @Zeus. put together, it's a really well thought through tool made for this very purpose. Keep this regime and you will have little to no algae, and when you do, you will know exactly why as long as you track all changes.

 

[PlantMan216]

Hi!
Interesting you are planning to dose N and P (only) once in two weeks, and K multiple times over that period.
My approach is macros 4x week, micros 3x, alternating days + 1x Fe on the micros day after water change. I know some front-load ferts in one big whack for the week, but I have not before come across the schedule you describe above. I am pretty much a newbie so always learning!

Got the idea from the video link below. I found it interesting as well and seen many people talking and asking about his schedule so I figured I’d give it a try to see what I could learn from it.

 

[PlantMan216]

You will need to test regularly until you know what you are doing. Start with little light, but plenty co2. Bump the light little by little over couple of months. Figure out the baseline water parameters you want. Buy few tests and measure before and after each water change until you get hang of it. Check out the calculator @Zeus. put together, it's a really well thought through tool made for this very purpose. Keep this regime and you will have little to no algae, and when you do, you will know exactly why as long as you track all changes.

Yea I planned to test 20x more this time around to really see exactly what is happening. Since I’m doing a dark start and when the lights actually turn on with plants the water will have no ammonia etc would you still rec to lower light in the beginning? I was thinking just to start max light, high-ish co2 and then figure out fert levels just to minimize change in the tank. Mainly since the plants won’t be as stressed/melting due to high ammonia. No clue if that is wrong or has backend issues I’m not thinking of. I kind of just wondering and assuming from the info I’ve read so far.

 

[rdk1402]

I'd always start with reduced light intensity. It's nature's gas pedal. Why floor it, when the car is still being assembled.
Focus on plant health first, appearance comes later.

 

[LFNfan]

Got the idea from the video link below. I found it interesting as well and seen many people talking and asking about his schedule so I figured I’d give it a try to see what I could learn from it.

Interesting. Sad to read in the comments about his passing.

He was obviously a professional and it sounded a bit like he flexed his core approach based on what he observed in the tank, drawing on his experience to adjust dosing in response to changes day-to-day.

Although he said he likes to keep it simple, it seems a bit of a complicated schedule compared to others out there, but judging by the tank over his shoulder it worked for him!

I am probably closer to the routine he outlined for his missus - 'when I'm away just use this all-in-one according to the instructions on the bottle'.

I wonder if he was sponsored by Seachem - he seemed to have a stack of their products.

He mentioned 'lean' a few times and that is consistent with what I've been advised here for my low-tech tank. I'm now dosing for 7.5ppm NO3 weekly with a product that is 2:1:4 N: P :K, and 0.5ppm Fe/micros mix (plus separate Fe to top up). I could even go to 5ppm NO3, which I might do next year. My tank is not massively densely planted but I do have floating plants and three terrestrial plants with 'wet roots'. For water changes I am using RO water with a bit of very hard tap (25:2.5 ratio) plus a couple of remineralising salts (epsom + gypsum).

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I’ll be starting my tank off with a month long dark start, is this a good time to test water parameters and lock in everything for PH, GH, KH and TDS? Or will the actual start be different as that is when plants, light, co2 and ferts are being added?

You can't really lock in values for pH, dGH or dKH. Have a look at <"Some handy facts about water">. Electrical conductivity <"you can measure accurately">, but you would need to know the <"conversion factor from microS. to ppm TDS">.

Should I remineralize the RO before adding it to the tank.
Also do I mineralize for good tds or am I supposed to match the tds of the tank water?

You don't actually need to remineralise the RO water at all. You are going to add a 1 :1 ratio of dGH : dKH from the limestone CaCO3 (as Ca++ and 2HCO3-) ions and magnesium (Mg) with your fertiliser addition. When you add CO2 that <"massively increases"> the rate at which the rock is chemically eroded.

I plan to use SeaChem Equilibrium as I saw it doesn’t raise KH. I have a good amount of seriyu stone in the tank however so should I be worried of low KH still and fluctuating PH?

Just ignore "fluctuating pH", as soon as some-one mentions "pH stability" (away from marine aquariums or lake Tanganyika scapes) they are either confused, trying to confuse you or trying to sell you something (or all three).

While we are on the subject of trying to confuse, that is Seachem's <"modus operandi">. Have a look at <"Seachem method of potassium dosing">.

I'll continue in another post to stop this one getting too <"text dense">.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Also what’s the deal with mixing tap and RO? Does it actually work well

It does if you have <"hard, alkaline tap water">.

Ideally I'd like to lock in my parameters at:
PH: ~6.5 - 6.8
GH: 8
KH 4

Unfortunately you can't, without <"adding pH buffers">. The following also applies to the sellers, or promoters, of pH buffers.......

........ they are either confused, trying to confuse you or trying to sell you something (or all three).

At 4 dKH your pH will raise to ~pH8, and it isn't a problem. There is a discussion here <"Potassium Carbonate (K2CO3) vs pH ?">.

I plan to have Galaxy Rasboras and Cherry Shrimp. Please let me know if the parameters I listed is not ideal given this livestock (seems okay from what I've read so far).

You don't need RO, they are both happy in hard water. The Galaxy Rasbora will eat some shrimplets.

This is their report from 2023

I'd start off with asking why you want to go RO, unless you have very specific requirements for planned inhabitants, then I would always advise to use what comes out of your tap if you can.

Use the tap water. You need a dechlorinator that <"will deal with chloramine">.

My first 60p scape (2 yrs ago) had lots of algae issues and stunted plant growth which I’m 100% sure is not just because of water quality.

It is almost certainly a mineral nutrient issue, have a look at <"What is the “Duckweed Index” all about?">.

Got the idea from the video link below.

I wonder if he was sponsored by Seachem - he seemed to have a stack of their products.

It is a good video, but the Seachem product placing is really disappointing to be honest, he must have known that he was being "economical with the truth", but <"profligate with your money">. <"Plants don't know where ions came from">, or how much they cost.

cheers Darrel