Mixing ferts to resemble ADA lineup

[Zeus.]

Also, any ideas on why such high PH?

Just high enough to hold the minerals/chelates in suspension or interacting and prevent mould etc.

 

[X3NiTH]

You need to be careful with adding Calcium Nitrate to Sulphated solutions because it can react and drop out Calcium Sulphate as a precipitate if you exceed the solubility for Calcium Sulphate in the resultant solution. You do the calculations for resultant doses in the tank volume and then you shove it all in a bottle as a concentrate and which all goes into solution just fine and then 10mins later you go back to check on it and it’s half full of a white precipitate, yup I’ve been there!

 

[Hanuman]

Just high enough to hold the minerals/chelates in suspension or interacting and prevent mould etc.

In my experience PH5 is too high. I have had precipitates in solution of PH4 or slightly less. The thing that might hold everything in solution is the very low iron content of 0.03ppm but not sure of that.

 

[Hanuman]

You need to be careful with adding Calcium Nitrate to Sulphated solutions because it can react and drop out Calcium Sulphate as a precipitate if you exceed the solubility for Calcium Sulphate in the resultant solution. You do the calculations for resultant doses in the tank volume and then you shove it all in a bottle as a concentrate and which all goes into solution just fine and then 10mins later you go back to check on it and it’s half full of a white precipitate, yup I’ve been there!

Quicky here. Why are you referring to Calcium Nitrate? Maybe I missed something.

Do you see other ways to achieve that ATP formulation without the addition of K2CO3? The only thing I am thinking of is basically making a more diluted solution with a designed dosage of 1ml for 10L of water instead of 1ml for 20L of water. That way we can get over the dilution issue.

 

[X3NiTH]

I mentioned the Calcium Nitrate because @Zeus posted it in the solubility tables and as you can see it’s very soluble, mixing it along with sulphates in a custom mix to get typical nitrate levels for dosing in replacement or supplementation of Potassium Nitrate for me ended up with a pile of precipitates, dosing Calcium Nitrate straight to the total tank volume as a salt no problem, making baggies of dry mixes of mixed salt for dosing even led to a reaction with Calcium Nitrate reacting with Potassium Phosphate and turning into a substance that appeared to have the solubility and hardness of Granite. I just avoid using it in mixes now.

Potassium Chloride is the easy answer but as you say is the Chloride bump acceptable (it’s probably ok), you could use Potassium Hydroxide instead of the Carbonate except the problem is that when you add it into a bottle it will react with atmospheric equilibrium co2 in the water and turn into the carbonate anyway so the preparation needs to be over engineered. You would need to remove any carbon from the mix before introducing the hydroxide, this can be done by boiling RO/DI in an inert atmosphere using a displacement gas such as Nitrogen, add the other elements which will be acidified to a low pH and then add the Hydroxide which will raise the pH back up, then bottle it up. I’ve tested none of this btw so no idea if it would work as anticipated.

There may be an issue with having this mix gaining access to co2 from the atmosphere every time you open the bottle or have it sitting in a dosing container so it could possibly have a short shelf life, a way to reduce the likelihood of this issue is to use IV drip bags instead to store ferts for dosing, I have swapped to doing this a few months ago anyway and decided it made it easier to keep an eye on amounts left and keeping the outside from getting in and causing mould formation, so from now on all my ferts get delivered this way.

I’ve not got round to buying a light safe bag (used to shield chemotherapy fluids as the chelates used are light sensitive) so I’m just using opaque plastic to wrap around it to keep the light out, not very tidy and I need to get rid of the bottle cages. The type of IV bags I am using are the Novelty type used for filling with party drinks for Cosplayers (Vampires, Zombies etc lol).

Going back to the Chloride issue I found this presentation of the composition of water a while ago when looking into water composition and particularly liked the diagram of the Extended Stallard Scheme showing the worlds major rivers and their general composition in relation to TDS, Silicates, Chlorides, Sulphates and Carbonates.

 

[Zeus.]

Do you see other ways to achieve that ATP formulation without the addition of K2CO3? The only thing I am thinking of is basically making a more diluted solution with a designed dosage of 1ml for 10L of water instead of 1ml for 20L of water. That way we can get over the dilution issue.

Yes , just make a more dilute solution and dose more, I do it all the time just works as an auto top up as well as fert

 

[Hanuman]

I mentioned the Calcium Nitrate because @Zeus posted it in the solubility tables

I swear to you I looked several times the thread to see where this Calcium Nitrate came from and I could not find it. Now I can see it just right in front of my sorry face. That's sorcery!! @Zeus. it's your fault I was drown in your excel file looking for nuggets and my brain was melting - lol

Potassium Chloride is the easy answer but as you say is the Chloride bump acceptable (it’s probably ok)

Going back to the Chloride issue I found this presentation of the composition of water a while ago when looking into water composition and particularly liked the diagram of the Extended Stallard Scheme showing the worlds major rivers and their general composition in relation to TDS, Silicates, Chlorides, Sulphates and Carbonates.

There is < this post > from @dw1305 saying that less than 2ppm are needed and that's why I mentioned about chloride not being acceptable specially when at the end of a week of dosing one would end up with close to 4ppm of chloride. Since I am not a chemist or a botanist I have no clue what is acceptable and what not.

you could use Potassium Hydroxide instead of the Carbonate except the problem is that when you add it into a bottle it will react with atmospheric equilibrium co2 in the water and turn into the carbonate anyway so the preparation needs to be over engineered. You would need to remove any carbon from the mix before introducing the hydroxide, this can be done by boiling RO/DI in an inert atmosphere using a displacement gas such as Nitrogen, add the other elements which will be acidified to a low pH and then add the Hydroxide which will raise the pH back up, then bottle it up

Yes that sounds a bit too involved. I might pass on that one but I keep it on the back burner for someday if I get a chemistry degree. lol

I have swapped to doing this a few months ago anyway and decided it made it easier to keep an eye on amounts left and keeping the outside from getting in and causing mould formation, so from now on all my ferts get delivered this way. I’ve not got round to buying a light safe bag (used to shield chemotherapy fluids as the chelates used are light sensitive) so I’m just using opaque plastic to wrap around it to keep the light out, not very tidy and I need to get rid of the bottle cages. The type of IV bags I am using are the Novelty type used for filling with party drinks for Cosplayers (Vampires, Zombies etc lol).

Ok now you're talking. I guess one needs to be careful not to puncture the bag but beyond that it is just an amazing idea.

 

[Hanuman]

Yes , just make a more dilute solution and dose more, I do it all the time just works as an auto top up as well as fert

Yeap ultimately that might be the way to go if I can't crack the nut. I am someone who always like to know how things work no matter how difficult they are or how ignorant I am on a specific subject. Call it stubbornness.

 

[Zeus.]

@Zeus. it's your fault I was drown in your excel file looking for nuggets and my brain was melting - lol

🥳 , Calcium Nitrate (Calcium Nitrate Tetrahydrate -Ca(NO3)2.4H2O) just happen to be on a screen shot of the fert program, I glad it was as we got @X3NiTH detailed experience of using it - so we learned something by sharing

Potassium Chloride is the easy answer but as you say is the Chloride bump acceptable

Think I have read somewhere (Barr report maybe) about blending 'x'SO4 and 'x'Cl to reach the target 'x'ppm

I am someone who always like to know how things work no matter how difficult they are or how ignorant I am on a specific subject. Call it stubbornness.

Same here, but stubbornness is not giving up at first hurdle also

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

There is < this post > from @dw1305 saying that less than 2ppm are needed and that's why I mentioned about chloride not being acceptable specially when at the end of a week of dosing one would end up with close to 4ppm of chloride. Since I am not a chemist or a botanist I have no clue what is acceptable and what not.

It is going to depend on the fish and plants, but my guess is that you need a fair bit more of chloride before it becomes a problem.

If you had hard water then the fish and plants you keep are more likely to be tolerant of raised levels of chloride (Cl-) ions.

A lot of American fish-keepers regularly add salt (NaCl) to their tanks, and salt addition is a traditional treatment for nitrite poisoning (more Cl- ions in solution reduce the amount of NO2- ions the fish takes up, it is purely a numbers game). Figures from aquaculture suggest that 100 mg/L (ppm) is an <"acceptable chloride concentration"> for producing Channel Catfish (Ictalurus punctatus ), so I'm not going to worry about small amounts.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

making baggies of dry mixes of mixed salt for dosing even led to a reaction with Calcium Nitrate reacting with Potassium Phosphate and turning into a substance that appeared to have the solubility and hardness of Granite. I just avoid using it in mixes now.

I hadn't really thought of that, but is a good point. The majority of calcium (Ca) compounds are of very limited solubility, while (nearly) all potassium (K) compounds are soluble.

It is back to @X3NiTH 's other post <"about unintended consequences">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Hanuman]

Hi all, It is going to depend on the fish and plants, but my guess is that you need a fair bit more of chloride before it becomes a problem.

If you had hard water then the fish and plants you keep are more likely to be tolerant of raised levels of chloride (Cl-) ions.

A lot of American fish-keepers regularly add salt (NaCl) to their tanks, and salt addition is a traditional treatment for nitrite poisoning (more Cl- ions in solution reduce the amount of NO2- ions the fish takes up, it is purely a numbers game). Figures from aquaculture suggest that 100 mg/L (ppm) is an <"acceptable chloride concentration"> for producing Channel Catfish (Ictalurus punctatus ), so I'm not going to worry about small amounts.

Ok so clearly 4ppm is nothing compared to the 100ppm figure suggested by aquaculture. My GH is around 7-10 and KH around 2.
I googled around and <found this> and <also this> which also confirm the above.

So this is telling me that ATP Complete is possibly using Potassium Chloride as a source of K. Any other reasons why this chemical would not be used?
Aslo @Zeus. perhaps adding it to the calculator?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

So this is telling me that ATP Complete is possibly using Potassium Chloride as a source of K. Any other reasons why this chemical would not be used?

My guess would be that any potassium based fertiliser, that doesn't contain any/much nitrogen, will use potassium chloride (KCl) as their potassium source, mainly because it is really cheap to buy.

cheers Darrel

 

[ian_m]

So this is telling me that ATP Complete is possibly using Potassium Chloride as a source of K. Any other reasons why this chemical would not be used?
Aslo @Zeus. perhaps adding it to the calculator?

Not convinced chloride salts/ions really have a place in aquatics. Why do you think the sea is full of chloride ? (sodium chloride) as there are no major biological consumers of chloride ions, so they all accumulate in the sea. Potassium carbonate would be a better more plant & fish friendly source of potassium, than chloride.

 

[Zeus.]

Aslo @Zeus. perhaps adding it to the calculator?

Makes sense to add it esp for RO water users, will add it to the 'water report wizard' and do a yeild for Cl in the reports etc also . My tap water has a mean 50ppm Cl with the EU limit at 250ppm Cl. Will do some reading on it myself.

 

[Hanuman]

Not convinced chloride salts/ions really have a place in aquatics. Why do you think the sea is full of chloride ? (sodium chloride) as there are no major biological consumers of chloride ions, so they all accumulate in the sea. Potassium carbonate would be a better more plant & fish friendly source of potassium, than chloride.

If my research is correct chloride is an essential electrolyte and we usually consume it through ingestion of sodium chloride. I read also that plants absorb it as it plays a role in photosynthesis. Now obviously it's all a matter of proportions. According to my research:

"Seawater has a chloride ion concentration of about 19,400 mg/L". Fish can still live in it, granted they are sea water fish.
"Rivers have a chloride ion concentration ranging from 45-155 mg/L and is considered normal". Fish and plants live in them.
"Goundwater have a chloride ion concentration of 35-125 mg/L and is considered normal." We drink it.

So then I checked the water reports in Bangkok from 2019 and 2020:
Chloride is somewhere between 20mg/l and 30mg/l during the year (the limit here is set at 250mg/l). It can go all the way up to to 100mg/l depending on the station and season. These higher levels occurre during the hot season due to drought and seawater sipping back into canals and rivers. Two months ago my tap water TDS reading was hitting 1200ppm. Shocked I was. I did notice a salty taste to the tap water. Government got in hot waters as people complained. Dams had to increase discharge volume to allow seawater to go back where it came from and give people their peace.

Here is a < real time map > of water quality in Bangkok.

In any case the 4ppm added by a fertilizer are far behind from what is in sea water and even rivers. Not sure at those levels it is toxic.

 

[Zeus.]

Think I will add Sulphates to the Reports/Water Report Wizard' as well just for reference. All the structure is there already in the program, then we can see from the salts and tap water we add what the approximate levels are
My Tap water has a mean 54ppm SO4 and the EU limit is 250 ppm SO4

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

In any case the 4ppm added by a fertilizer are far behind from what is in sea water and even rivers.

Not convinced chloride salts/ions really have a place in aquatics.

My guess is that they are both true, ideally you want low chloride values, but for most fish and plants it isn't going to make a huge amount of difference. Soft water fish and plants like Tonina would be where problems were likely to manifest first as salinity increases.

It can go all the way up to to 100mg/l depending on the station and season. These higher levels occurre during the hot season due to drought and seawater sipping back into canals and rivers. Two months ago my tap water TDS reading was hitting 1200ppm. Shocked I was. I did notice a salty taste to the tap water. Government got in hot waters as people complained. Dams had to increase discharge volume to allow seawater to go back where it came from and give people their peace.

It is a real issue, even where you don't have intrusion from salt water (<"Sea water intrusion - SWI">) aquifers and surface water are polluted with agricultural fertilisers, sewage and (in northern regions) run-off from road salting.

Very few water-sheds anywhere are in anything like their pre-industrialized state.

cheers Darrel

 

[Hanuman]

In any case the 4ppm added by a fertilizer

Because there was as error in the Rotala calculator (now corrected) that 4ppm value is incorrect. The correct value is 10.03ppm (after a week of dosing).
If one is using RO water I don't see much of an issue there but if one is to use tap water that is something definitely to consider.

For the chemist here, is there an easy way to test a solution for the presence of Chloride and it's approximate content in the solution? If that's possible that should provide an indication if Potassium Chloride is actually used in the ATP Complete formula or not.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

For the chemist here, is there an easy way to test a solution for the presence of Chloride and it's approximate content in the solution?

<"There is"> a way, you can acidify your sample with nitric acid (HNO3) and then add silver nitrate (AgNO3) solution. Silver chloride (AgCl) is formed and that an insoluble white precipitate, and you can then back titrate this mixture with an ammonia solution (of known strength) until the precipitate disappears. You would need to have chloride standards and make a calibration curve.

You can also use an <"ion selective electrode"> (ISE), but you are back to the issues with interference from similarly sized monovalent anions.

If I wanted to do this accurately I would definitely go for the solid state ISE.

cheers Darrel