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LED light 7h/day but...at what power? Plants melting

Thanks for the link Ian. :)

Joao, the guys who have been doing this for a while have a thorough understanding of the equipment and materials they are using. George probably also knows what recipe is in the bottle. George also started with the dry powders described in the article. He has also used just about all the various fertilizer brands at one time or another. His success is due the fact that he is George, not solely on the fact that he is using this brand or that. I don't know what recipe is in any branded bottle unless it is specified on the list of ingredients on the bottle or is provided somewhere else, but it is very easy to figure out the standard recipe if I have access to the dry powders, which are the basic ingredients used in everybody's recipes.

I'll not bash any fert product because I realize that the suppliers are just trying to make a living, and if folks find it too difficult to make up the standard recipe, and if they just want to use something easy, without having to do any maths, then that is fine. If you read the EI article Ian linked to, you note that actually, the main reason for the development of home made recipes such as PMDD and later, EI, was economics. Suppliers were charging outrageous prices for pretty, but tiny bottles filled with water and with a smidgen of powders. They are still charging high prices today, not because of malevolence, but because they have mortgages and salaries to pay.

When you walk into a fast food restaurant and buy a cup of cola for 75 pence, you are getting probably only about 2 pence worth of actual cola. The plastic cup cost much more than the cola itself. There is a smidgen of cola formula and 99% water and CO2, which are very cheap. So every business does this, no surprise. But while I can't make my own cola, I can certainly make my own fertilizer! :wave:

I once calculated the per Liter price of a certain German nutrient product containing a mix of dry powders and water. They were the first company to discover the benefits of using KNO3 almost 30 years ago and they started selling it while hiding the list of ingredients. It turned out to be something like 800 Euros per Liter. That product is still on the market today and people are still buying it because of the brand name and other promotional factors.

This is all very well and good, but I believe that we can have success for less money if we gain a clear understanding of the fundamental principles of plant husbandry.
The more we understand, the better decisions we can make and the less fear and guesswork are involved. Of course there will always remain things that are far beyond our comprehension, but some things are very easy to learn and fertilizer mixing is one of those. Having the control of tailoring the fertilizer to your own needs is a good idea, so have a look at the Tutorial and ask questions if anything is unclear.

Cheers,
 
Hi @ceg4048 just wanted to give you an update on this and the progress so far :)
  • Algae issue - it's MUCH better now. Based on the changes I've made (listing below for the benefit of anyone who finds this post in the future) I hardly get algae growing on glass, plants, wood etc.
    • I reduced the lighting power to 30% - 50% - 30% and tweaked schedule to 8am - 12pm @ 30% | 12pm - 3pm @ 50% | 3pm - 6pm @ 30% | 6pm - 7pm dimming gradually until 5% moon light until 8am following day where the loop restarts.
    • I removed the most affected leaves from plants, cleaning/gently scrubbing off on the ones that seemed easy.
    • Cleaned the algae on hard scape, specially the wood. Has been very clean since.
    • I increased dosing of Flourish Excel gradually to 4x the recommended amount on the bottle (from 5ml / 200L tank to 20ml / 200L) on a daily basis. Fish didn't show any sign of stress but I decided to stop at 4x :)
    • I increased dosing of fertilised to 2x the recommended (from 20ml / 200L to 40ml / 200L).
  • Melting leaves issue - it has improved considerably but it is not "there" yet. I tend to find every other day melting leaves floating around the tank.
As I increased the dosing on fertiliser and Excel I ran out pretty fast :)

What's next:
FERTILISER REPLACEMENT
- So it was a good time to now go with the EI kit as @ian_m suggested on earlier post (THANKS). Delivery expected anytime this week ;)
LIQUID CARBON REPLACEMENT - I decided to go with Easy Life Easy Carbo, 1 Litre as replacement for Excel, this time around. Delivery expected today ;) Product had good reviews and seemed to be more affordable. They highly recommend not exceeding the recommended dosage - Is this something I should stick to? Any experience with this product?

Lastly, I have noticed with the changes below some plants have grown faster, having reached the water surface :) Can't wait to trim down some here and there during the consistent 50% weekly WC I've been doing, looking for a bushy look in the future.

Cheers @ceg4048 @ian_m for all the help this far :) As a minor token of appreciation, I'm looking to post some pics soon and show what you've helped achieve ;)
 
Hi Joao,
Glad to hear that things are improving. Excel, EasyCarbo, Neutro CO2 and a few other products are using the same active ingredient called gluteraldehyde, which is a disinfectant often used in hospitals to clean operating room tools such as scalpels, tongs and so forth. You can do a search on the forum and you'll find a lot of discussion about the dangers versus benefit. There are those that even buy gluteraldehyde in bulk and make their own solution. Use these products interchangeably and of course with the proper caution. You should also compare the concentration levels between the two to see if the same amounts of each liquid contains the same amount of gluteraldehyde. Therefore if you overdose Excel then you can certainly overdose the other liquids, however, the amount of the disinfectant that enters the water may differ.

People overdose CO2 and kill their fish instantly, all the time. So these components should all be used with respect.
Having said that, I think 4X Excel is a lot, and remember that Excel toxicity also has the same symptoms as poor CO2, i.e. melting leaves, so it can easily be that you are approaching toxic levels and that can possibly be a cause of the odd melting leaves that you are finding.

If you are able to keep your lighting low and are able to optimize your CO2 diffusion technique, you may find that you can eliminate the Easycarbo, or at least use less of it. It all starts with the lighting energy because this determines how much gas/liquid is needed to satisfy the plants requirement for Carbon.

Cheers,
 
Hi @ceg4048
Thanks for the steer, my aim was to always mind toxicity of Excel/similar hence adding gradually. Will stick to the dosage recommended on the new bottle for sure.
I don't run CO2 at all, I was considering moving to a high tech setup (and eventually get a nice planted carpet going), checked prices on black friday but didn't see many good deals hahaha. Truth is, I'd like to hold off for a little longer and learn more about fertilisers, gluteraldehyde etc. before upgrading to CO2 system which feels a bigger commitment.

Found good articles in terms of what equipment to buy, good brands etc. but perhaps a "starter kit" would be more advantageous at the beginning when I get there. Sensible?

Will report back in a near future!
 
Hi Joao,
I don't really see why it is necessary to have gas in order to have a carpet. Carpet plants absolutely love liquid carbon and they have a high toxicity tolerance, so there is nothing stopping you from planting a carpet. It will just take a little longer for the plants to fill in. Try is and see how it goes.

Cheers,
 
Hi @ceg4048 I've been using Excel for 2 months and haven't seen progress with these plants:
  • Hemianthus Callitrichoides 'Cuba'
  • Marsilea Crenata
By progress I mean, they didn't grow further becoming a carpet. They pretty much stayed with same shape/colour as when they were initially planted. Seen some runners on the marsilea but nothing close to dream of a carpet.

Maybe with the issues we've been discussing solved I may see some changes for the better.

Will continue w/ the liquid carbon for now.

Cheers.
 
Hi Joao,
Yes, I realize that these plants grow slowly because the liquid is not as effective as gas and also you have reduced the lighting right? So naturally things will slow down. I advise patience, however, if you feel the need, and if you are sure that the problems are solved, then you can try to increase the lighting, but I suggest by only a few percentage points. Then wait a few weeks and increase further if there are no negative effects.

Now that you understand the relationship between light, algae, nutrients and growth rate, it will be much easier for you to monitor, recognize and regulate.

Cheers,
 
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