Jungle flex 57L

[Davey]

Dear all,

I have recently been inspired to set up our fluval flex 57L. I've seen some great videos on YouTube which have drawn me back into the hobby. One video in particular, where @George Farmer visits a shop owners home and shows a tank set up for a child, had made me want to create a relaxing tank my children will enjoy watching.



I really like the natural jungle like look especially the height he creates.

So here goes my attempt at a similar look. I've used old and used ecocomplete mixed with Ada Amazonia from a previous set-up, and some old redmoor cut into two pieces. The light is the standard one and I'm not wanting to add CO2.



I then brought some plants:
Back:
Bacopa caroliniana
Hygrophila corymbosa 'Siamensis 53B'
Microsorum pteropus

Mid:
Cryptocoryne willisii
Lobelia cardinalis

Fore:
Lilaeopsis brasiliensis
Staurogyne repens



So I did something silly and left the plants for a few days in their containers before planting as I didn't have time. Unfortunately the Staurogyne repens look like they've pretty much all died, I've planted it in the front left corner and hopefully it can come back. Similar story with the H siamensis 🙁 . The plan is for it to grow tall and cover the back LHS where the filter/heater is. The bacopa is up on the back right and the fern is in the mid back. I'm after height in the back so I'm looking to replace the fern with something else, perhaps an Amazon sword?

And I've realised I want something tall growing on the front right hand side. I'm unsure about this one too.

Any recommendations/tips/advice/critique would be much appreciated.

Regards
Dav

Ps the rock on the log is weighing it down. Had it soaking for 2 weeks and it was sinking until I planted - really strange.

 

[Ghettofarmulous]

How is your tank going?

 

[Davey]

So I set this tank up two years ago and enjoyed it. Life got so busy that I forgot to update this journal. What's brought me back here is that I had some desire to change it all up now.

I've rescaped (see images below) and salvaged lots of the old plants/ideas and gone for something different. I'm aiming for a low tech/low maintenance tank. The kind of tank that rarely needs trimming, a weekly water change and maybe a little ferting to encourage some growth although I need some advice about this.

Some info:
Tank is flex 57l with the baffle plate cut out and a APS HOB 500 filter.
Light is chihiros a-series.
Under the new tropica aquasoil is substrate from the old (and even older) set ups.
Seiryu stone
Old and used decorative sand.
100w heater hidden behind bogwood.

I wanted low tech and I was still in awe of the scaped nature Scape in the video I posted two years ago so this is my take on it.
Ive gone with 5 varieties of bucephalandra
3/4 types of anubias.
3/4 varieties of Crypts from my old Scape.
Floating plants (frogbit and red root floaters) for shade/nutrient/algae control and stem plants (cabomba and rotala rot) also due to algae concerns.

It's been running two days and I'm not rushing to stock it with fish anytime soon, I just want to establish the plants and find a balance.

I want a wall of buce and anubias growing on the bogwood and I want to really play with height.

I used aquarium egg crate under most of the Scape as I was concerned about the stones/log cracking the bottom of the tank with direct contact. I have seen posts about this on Reddit which made me paranoid.

Old substrate in mesh bags. The rocks are not attached to each other and I made a mistake not attaching them.

This is how it currently looks:

So I'm planning to do daily 50% water changes for a week. Then every other day... So on and so forth until I get to once a week changes. I feels it might be overkill but I have added new aquasoil which I've read leaches ammonia into the water column. Having said that, the filter has been running from the previous setup and should have bacteria in it. Please advise if I am doing unnecessary water changes. I plan to test parameters regularly.

The photoperiod is currently set to 6 hours and after 2 hours reaches 40% intensity. It tapers down after the 4th hour.

Questions/concerns:
Should I stick to my current light cycle or change it?
Should I place the light at the front and angle it back so it spreads across the log from the side as opposed to the top?
When should I start fertilising and is there anything specific I should use for slow growing epiphytes specifically?
Should the filter flow be strong or gentle? at the moment it is very gentle.
Should I add root tabs to help the crypts to establish themselves? When is a good time for this?
I have wedged anubias rhizomes between rocks at the front of the Scape, are these pieces likely to attach between the rocks or rot?
I have wedged a coin anubias on the right of the tank. The rhizome is caught between the glass and the wood. Is this likely to survive and thrive?
Should I move/reorient any plants?
When should I consider it safe to add shrimp?

idea: I'm considering growing a peace Lilly wedged between the corner of the tank and the backside of the bogwood with the roots hanging in the water. Also considering growing a fittonia on the emersed wood. Any suggestions? I have never done either of these before.

If you've stayed this long, thank you for taking the time. Please share anything if you feel I could learn from your insights. This is a nice place for me to dump all my questions/concerns/ideas and document the journey (unlike the first set-up 2 years ago).

 

[Karacticus]

Hi @Davey. The tank's looking great so far! Love the wall of epiphytes - that will great as the plants grow. I'm not the best person to answer all your questions, but can share my own recent experience re a few...

Should I stick to my current light cycle or change it?

I take from this that with two hours ramp at either end you are only running your light for two hours at its brightest. I started mine at six or seven hours with a half hour ramp, which worked well for me and led to decent plant growth. I have quite a few fast growing plants, whereas you've got slower growers mainly. One thing to consider might be to increase your stems during start-up to maximise nutrient take up to hopefully outcompete algae.

Should the filter flow be strong or gentle? at the moment it is very gentle.

The thing I have picked up is that flow is pretty crucial to a successful planted tank, so my personal preference is to have enough flow that your plants are all gently swaying and moving if you can. I still haven't managed this in my tank and there are one or two dead spots. The difference is that the plants in the dead spots have barely grown in three months, whilst others have rocketed. Mine is a jungle scape, so I'm not overly precious and haven't taken the step to a powerhead yet for aesthetic reasons. So, personally, I would go with reasonable flow, but this will also be dependent on what fish you intend to get.

Should I add root tabs to help the crypts to establish themselves? When is a good time for this?

I have similar sand over aquasoil and haven't needed any root tabs yet. I intend to get some soon for hungrier plants like my swords and Nymphaea, but this is after several months. If you are planning to regularly dose ferts and have new aquasoil, you should be good for a while. I would suggest dosing liquid ferts from the off, but I'm not the best person to say what you need. People use lots of different things on here. I am currently using @Happi 's Solufeed mix, which seems to be working well for me and costs peanuts.

I have wedged anubias rhizomes between rocks at the front of the Scape, are these pieces likely to attach between the rocks or rot?
I have wedged a coin anubias on the right of the tank. The rhizome is caught between the glass and the wood. Is this likely to survive and thrive?

Like you, I have got a few Anubias dotted around. I glued most of mine to the wood with superglue. Some rotted partially, but since removing the dead material they seem to have settled and are resprouting new leaves from the rhizone. I would have thought that they will be fine as long as you haven't damaged the rhizomes and they get enough light and nutrients etc.

Should I move/reorient any plants?

I think it looks good, but (again) personally I might be tempted to jam some more stems in at the back.

When should I consider it safe to add shrimp?

I wouldn't add anything until you're happy that it is completely cycled - no ammonia or nitrite - and for shrimp I added a small number after my first fish and during the diatom phase, so I knew there was a reasonable food source. Now my tank it pretty much algae free, but they feed off the biofilm and decaying leaves plus whatever is lying around after feeding time.

idea: I'm considering growing a peace Lilly wedged between the corner of the tank and the backside of the bogwood with the roots hanging in the water. Also considering growing a fittonia on the emersed wood. Any suggestions? I have never done either of these before

Peace lilies look great and I think would be an excellent idea behind your hardscape. I've got one - you just need to ensure you get as much soil off as is humanly possible. I ended up with three pieces, one which is wedged in a crack in the wood and two that are bound with plastic coated wire. You can either fashion a wrap and hook method over the glass, or trying attaching to the wood with the wire. They do a great job at sucking excess nutrients out of the water.

What you have suggested re. water changes sounds good to me. Better to do too many than too few at start-up.

DISCLAIMER: I am fairly new to the hobby - well after a lengthy break - so some may wish give you alternative advice. The above is just from my personal experience and what I have picked up on this forum.

Best of luck!

Mark

Jungle aquascape

there is lots of experience here. Lol. There is, and all roads will lead you Rome, eventually.

www.ukaps.org

 

[Davey]

Hi @Davey. The tank's looking great so far! Love the wall o
I take from this that with two hours ramp at either end you are only running your light for two hours at its brightest. I started mine at six or seven hours with a half hour ramp, which worked well for me and led to decent plant growth. I have quite a few fast growing plants, whereas you've got slower growers mainly. One thing to consider might be to increase your stems during start-up to maximise nutrient take up to hopefully outcompete algae.

The thing I have picked up is that flow is pretty crucial to a successful planted tank, so my personal preference is to have enough flow that your plants are all gently swaying and moving if you can. I still haven't managed this in my tank and there are one or two dead spots. The difference is that the plants in the dead spots have barely grown in three months, whilst others have rocketed. Mine is a jungle scape, so I'm not overly precious and haven't taken the step to a powerhead yet for aesthetic reasons. So, personally, I would go with reasonable flow, but this will also be dependent on what fish you intend to get.

I have similar sand over aquasoil and haven't needed any root tabs yet. I intend to get some soon for hungrier plants like my swords and Nymphaea, but this is after several months. If you are planning to regularly dose ferts and have new aquasoil, you should be good for a while. I would suggest dosing liquid ferts from the off, but I'm not the best person to say what you need. People use lots of different things on here. I am currently using @Happi 's Solufeed mix, which seems to be working well for me and costs peanuts.

Like you, I have got a few Anubias dotted around. I glued most of mine to the wood with superglue. Some rotted partially, but since removing the dead material they seem to have settled and are resprouting new leaves from the rhizone. I would have thought that they will be fine as long as you haven't damaged the rhizomes and they get enough light and nutrients etc.

I think it looks good, but (again) personally I might be tempted to jam some more stems in at the back.

I wouldn't add anything until you're happy that it is completely cycled - no ammonia or nitrite - and for shrimp I added a small number after my first fish and during the diatom phase, so I knew there was a reasonable food source. Now my tank it pretty much algae free, but they feed off the biofilm and decaying leaves plus whatever is lying around after feeding time.

Peace lilies look great and I think would be an excellent idea behind your hardscape. I've got one - you just need to ensure you get as much soil off as is humanly possible. I ended up with three pieces, one which is wedged in a crack in the wood and two that are bound with plastic coated wire. You can either fashion a wrap and hook method over the glass, or trying attaching to the wood with the wire. They do a great job at sucking excess nutrients out of the water.

What you have suggested re. water changes sounds good to me. Better to do too many than too few at start-up.

DISCLAIMER: I am fairly new to the hobby - well after a lengthy break - so some may wish give you alternative advice. The above is just from my personal experience and what I have picked up on this forum.

Best of luck!

Mark

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/jungle-aquascape.71250

http://

Thank you for taking the time @Karacticus I'll certainly check out your journal when I get a chance.

I like your suggestion of adding more stems. Ive got some pearl weed in another tank aswell as alot more rotala which I'll add on Monday.

Regarding the light schedule, I don't even allow my light to get to 100% intensity at the moment. It Ramps up to 40% after 2 hours and starts ramping down after 4 hours of being on. I'm being cautious as I really don't want to encourage a bloom, at the same time I really want the plants to grow well.

When you say liquid ferts from the get go; is that once I've got through the current daily water change routine? I feel like that may be a waste if I'm doing daily 50% water changes but I'm willing to do that if it's going to establish the plants. I have some seachem flourish which I can use.

Many thanks for replying!

 

[Karacticus]

It might be one of those 'everyone has a different approach' jobs. GreenAqua, who seem to know their stuff, suggest not fertilising for the first two weeks or so. I was using DIY ferts, so very cheap and no concern with wasting it. The advice I had on my journal was to dose daily from the off, so that's what I did. That said, I doubt your plants will suffer too much in a week without it and what they'd get from fresh water each day - assuming you're using tap.

 

[Davey]

I'm very excited about the idea of growing plants out of the aquarium. Got some ideas but not alot of space back there. Behind that piece of wood I can wedge an aquarium plant pot (the ones that come with the removable orange weight in them).
At first I was thinking of a big peace lilly, now I am considering maidenhair fern as it will drop over the top of the tank. Unsure if I can fit both.
I also like the idea of a stem or two of pothos working its way around the entire room but starting from the tank. I think I have some room on the right hand side for those stems. I do have some bare wood, although it's drying out at the top, I was thinking of adding a type of moss and/or a fittonia. The moss could hide the roots of the fittonia and possibly keep them moist.
There are probably more ideas than I can make work here but I'd be happy with one or two working as I've never done this before. Any tips/advice or experience you care to share?

I have seen a YouTube video where a chap from Riverwood aquatics uses a small pump to pull water from the tank ontop the emerging wood. This keep the plant roots wet. If I was to do this, I would need a tiny pump. Can anyone recommend one?

Thanks for reading my brain dump.

 

[Davey]

I compared some pictures today as it has been 8 days since I initially set the tank up. Encouragingly I have had some growth.

Despite new tropica aquasoil being used I'm still getting 0ppm for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Perhaps it takes the soil a while to release it?

Last night I took a sneaky clipping of devils ivy (pothos) and a small peacelilly plant. I fashioned a hook using rubber coated wire, threaded the peace lilly roots through it and wedged it in the back corner, behind the emerging wood. I also found a gap to fit the pothos cutting in.

Today I removed them houseplants temporarily while I carefully dropped some unused tropica soil behind the log. I figured the roots would search for it and I'd rather have them tucked away out of sight. There was no soil there before today.

I noticed some mold on the emerged wood which concerns me. I would not like mold spores floating around the house, especially as I have small children. Can anyone suggest how I should deal with. My initial thought is to use a submersible pump(???) to keep a trickle of water running from the very top of the wood down into the tank. I don't know what pump I'd be able to buy which would be small enough to attach airline to and deliver a few drops per minute minimum??
You'll see the mold in the centre of the picture.


I'm running a little experiment at the top of the tank with some anubias. I want to see how well it will grow out of water and near the light.
In the pic above there's an anubias rhizomes wedged in the log and submersed. In the picture below the rhizome is out of the water but the roots are in.

I am still keen on trying to attach a Maidenhair fern and fittonia (maybe even a spider plant too).

I'm really looking forward to building a cherry shrimp colony in here although I don't intend to rush this. I imagine I should wait 3 weeks more before doing so?



Cheers

 

[Davey]

I have my water report and I'm keep to understand how I should be ferting the tank. Looking forward to receiving some advice. So far I've been dosing 1/2mls of flourish after water changes. I don't have any signs of algae, although I get a buildup of snail poo on leaves which gets knocked and siphoned off with the water changes.


Looking forward to recieving some ferting advice.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I have my water report and I'm keep to understand how I should be ferting the tank.

The bits you need are the nitrate (NO3-), conductivity and hardness values. Your tap supply has plenty of nitrate in it and it is moderately hard (dGH) with some magnesium (Mg++), as well as calcium (Ca++).

We don't know about phosphate (PO4+++), or potassium (K+), because there isn't a PCV value for them, but you probably have a reasonable amount of both as they tend to go hand in hand ("be correlated with") with NO3- levels.

Because you have "slightly elevated" levels of both sodium (Na) and magnesium (Mg) it is likely that you have some input from an aquifer <"laid down in an evaporite basin">. The only practical application of this is that you will need an <"iron chelator"> more suitable for <"harder water">.

In terms of fertiliser addition?

1. You could use a <"light" version of Tropica fertiliser"> etc.
2. You could just ignore the water report and <"use a standard fertiliser">.
3. You could cut your tap water with <"rainwater or RO">.
4. You could add fertiliser via the <"Duckweed Index">

Personally, as it is a small tank, I'd use 2, 3 & 4, with 3. being mainly rainwater (if you have a water butt?)

cheers Darrel

 

[Davey]

Hi all,

The bits you need are the nitrate (NO3-), conductivity and hardness values. Your tap supply has plenty of nitrate in it and it is moderately hard (dGH) with some magnesium (Mg++), as well as calcium (Ca++).

We don't know about phosphate (PO4+++), or potassium (K+), because there isn't a PCV value for them, but you probably have a reasonable amount of both as they tend to go hand in hand (be correlated with) with NO3- levels.

Because you have "slightly elevated" levels of both sodium (Na) and magnesium (Mg) it is likely that you have some input from an aquifer <"laid down in an evaporite basin">. The only practical application of this is that you will need an <"iron chelator"> more suitable for <"harder water">.

In terms of fertiliser addition?

1. You could use a <"light" version of Tropica fertiliser"> etc.
2. You could just ignore the water report and <"use a standard fertiliser">.
3. You could cut your tap water with <"rainwater or RO">.
4. You could add fertiliser via the <"Duckweed Index">

Personally, as it is a small tank, I'd use 2, 3 & 4, with 3. being mainly rainwater (if you have a water butt?)

cheers Darrel

Thanks @dw1305 Darrel

Where could I get a chelated iron suitable for harder water? I read the thread you linked and you discuss a few varieties of chelated iron but I'm not sure which one is most suited for harder water.

With point 2, do you recommend I use the IFC calc to clone tropica premium to dose?

I have a water butt, although I haven't used it in a be while so it might need cleaning out before I start cutting tap water with it. This is entirely possible and I like the idea of it, although it does mean a trip all the way to the back of the garden every w/c.

I've got frogbit in the tank and I plan to keep it in so it makes sense to use it to indicate deficiencies.

Thank you
Dave

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Where could I get a chelated iron suitable for harder water

You could try <"Chempak Sequestered Iron"> (2% Fe)? or buy FeDTPA <"from ebay etc">. I wouldn't care about the <"tint from FeEDDHA">, but it may bother you? If you do want to try it? @keef321 has <"bought some recently">.

With point 2, do you recommend I use the IFC calc to clone tropica premium to dose?

Yes, if you have dry salts you can make up any mix you like.

I have a water butt, although I haven't used it in a be while so it might need cleaning out before I start cutting tap water with it. This is entirely possible and I like the idea of it, although it does mean a trip all the way to the back of the garden every w/c.

I just draw a <"couple of milk cartons worth"> and then let them warm up in the house. I use small regular volume water change, <"so it suits my routine">. I look on <"Daphnia etc"> in the water butt <"as a positive">.

I've got frogbit in the tank and I plan to keep it in so it makes sense to use it to indicate deficiencies.

Personally I'd buy some <"Solufeed 2 : 1 : 4"> and just add a splash when the <"Duckweed Index"> tells me to.

cheers Darrel

 

[Davey]

Thank you @dw1305
This is such a useful post. I know exactly what I will be doing now apart from how much and often I should dose the chelated iron.

I'll use the solufeed as and when, based on the duckweed index. This will save me the hassle of cloning the tropica ferts.

And rainwater + tap for water changes.
Your expertise I highly appreciated.
Dave

 

[Davey]

Thank you @dw1305
This is such a useful post. I know exactly what I will be doing now apart from how much and often I should dose the chelated iron.

Scratch that @dw1305 all the answers are in the thread you kindly linked.
Many thanks

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

This is such a useful post

I'm pleased it has been useful.

I'm still not a <"very good fish keeper"> and <"I don't grow any "difficult" plants">, but I think I understand <"what is important"> (and what isn't) in low tech planted tank keeping fairly well (until that statement comes back to bite me in the b*ttom).

cheers Darrel

 

[aec34]

@Davey tank is looking great - love a jungle. I wouldn’t worry about a tiny bit of mould on the wood; I think this is a bit inevitable on anything with an emersed set up. I have no idea if it makes a difference but I try to waft/blow on anything I have growing in those kinds of conditions from time to time - terrarium/riparium folks often have fans for air movement I believe (happy to be corrected).

EDIT: I have a pothos, and a bit of monstera, growing along the back of my tank without access to the substrate and they are both growing like the clappers.

Quick hijack: @dw1305 is ‘overdosing’ iron damaging? I’m very much in the ‘half a spoon/big pinch’ etc camp, but I have small tanks and overdosing is a concern rather than waste/expense.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Quick hijack: @dw1305 is ‘overdosing’ iron damaging? I’m very much in the ‘half a spoon/big pinch’ etc camp, but I have small tanks and overdosing is a concern rather than waste/expense.

The theoretical answer is <"yes">, but for us, in nearly all situations, the practical answer is "no". The reason that it isn't a problem is just to do with the <"ubiquity of iron"> in the natural environment and the <"insoluble nature"> of some (very common) ferric (FeIII) compounds.

Have a look at <"Micronutrient toxicity.. or deficiency.. ? Pls help.">

cheers Darrel

 

[keef321]

Hi all,

You could try <"Chempak Sequestered Iron"> (2% Fe)? or buy FeDTPA <"from ebay etc">. I wouldn't care about the <"tint from FeEDDHA">, but it may bother you? If you do want to try it? @keef321 has <"bought some recently">.

Yes, if you have dry salts you can make up any mix you like.

I just draw a <"couple of milk cartons worth"> and then let them warm up in the house. I use small regular volume water change, <"so it suits my routine">. I look on <"Daphnia etc"> in the water butt <"as a positive">.

Personally I'd buy some <"Solufeed 2 : 1 : 4"> and just add a splash when the <"Duckweed Index"> tells me to.

cheers Darrel

@Davey For Fe DTPA you could use the ready made TNC Iron TNC IronAT | The Nutrient Company
I have a 60 litre tank, and find this lasts me a long time.
For FeEDDHA I bought this Iron Plus B . As it's a powder and we have small tanks, you will need to make it up into a liquid, and then dose it into the tank. With the amount you get, it would literally last you years and years 🙂 . They have a powder FE DTPA as well. Bioly were a bit slow to deliver to me, but it got to me eventually.

Keith

 

[_Maq_]

We don't know about phosphate (PO4+++), or potassium (K+), because there isn't a PCV value for them, but you probably have a reasonable amount of both as they tend to go hand in hand ("be correlated with") with NO3- levels.

Darrell, I'm not aware of any common correlation between nitrates and K and P. Do you refer to farmers' ferts leaking into tap water? Is it based on on any statistics, a kind of research?
Generally, K and NO3 are mobile nutrients, so they may behave similarly. But phosphorus is a very different stuff. just musing...

is ‘overdosing’ iron damaging?

If your iron fertilizer is yellow-red-brown, it indicates trivalent iron (Fe III) and that's harmless, rest assured. If it's green(ish), it's a sign of divalent iron (Fe II) and that might be possibly harmful - it may oxidize on fish gills to trivalent iron precipitate, and while not exactly toxic, such a 'plaque' hinders gills' functionality.
---
If I may suggest, your pH nearly neutral, I'd try ordinary iron chloride (FeCl3) for iron dosing. It's cheap, you don't have to worry about (reasonable) overdosing, and it works well for me in acidic or neutral water.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Darrell, I'm not aware of any common correlation between nitrates and K and P. Do you refer to farmers' ferts leaking into tap water?

Yes, from agricultural pollution and domestic sewage. The river Wye (in which I used to swim as a child), phosphate and poultry <"is a cause celebre"> at the moment in the UK. People don't tend to worry about potassium (K) levels and eutrophication, because K is very rarely (never?) the limiting nutrient for algal growth in eutrophication*.

*Edit: I should have put in a reference for that: <"Anthropogenic sources of potassium in surface water: The case study of the Bystrzyca river catchment, Poland">

Partially because we were the birthplace of the industrial revolution many of our rivers were "biologically dead" in the 19th and early 20th centuries, so we have a base-line from which "any aquatic life" is often an improvement.

From "Water quality in rivers" - This is a House of Commons Committee report, with recommendations to government. <"https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5802/cmselect/cmenvaud/74/report.html">

You might be interested in "M.J. Whelan, C. Linstead, F. Worrall, S.J. Ormerod, I. Durance, A.C. Johnson, D. Johnson, M. Owen, E. Wiik, N.J.K. Howden, T.P. Burt, A. Boxall, C.D. Brown, D.M. Oliver, D. Tickner, (2022) "Is water quality in British rivers better than at any time since the end of the Industrial Revolution”?, Science of The Total Environment, 843, - <"Is water quality in British rivers “better than at any time since the end of the Industrial Revolution”?">.

The mode of transfer of potassium (K+) and <"nitrate (NO3-)"> is as dissolved ions, while <"phosphate (PO4---)"> often enters water courses etc. bound to soil particles. As well as sewage discharge, Maize (Zea mays) cultivation is a major cause of agricultural pollution, because the crop is often grown along lowland rivers and harvested as animal feed later in the autumn, allowing the unprotected soil to be swept into the river. This is an all too common sight in the UK in the winter.



Because we have a very high population density in the south of the UK, much of our water has passed through water treatment already once or more, before it is abstracted as drinking water again.

cheers Darrel