How to improve resiliency of in-vitro plants?

[Simon Cole]

Thanks Darrel. I did feel that figure was rather too high when I saw it (posts edited).
"The function of government it to take money from the public and put it into the hands of private individuals" - E. Snowden

A few years ago, I was involved in an audit of a water firm, and they had over 1000 water quality breaches in just one year. Last week, my tap water turned brown, and I was sick for two days. I have been hospitalised with poisoning due to poor quality tap water twice in three years. Now I just try to drink bottled water. I am due to switch to rainwater harvesting next year. I am in some doubt as to whether privatisation of the water companies was a good approach. I have had to learn the hard way to think twice before drawing water from any tap. A little more consumer pressure and more government oversight would go a long way. The bosses of these water firms take home over £300,000 each year and if you look at the balance sheets for these companies, profits pale in comparison to their total assets, money held in accounts and annual turnover. They walk a fine line of appearing not for profit, whilst lining their pockets in the process. The law was engineered to fall on their side, and not those of us affected. Also, I think the radon content of their water will make for interesting reading in about 30 years' time.

But the good news is that we can treat some aquarium plant melt, because 0.5 ppm is plenty enough.

 

[tigertim]

My experience with some tissue culture Cryptocorynes involving Yurii, Tonkinensis and Ferruginea var sekadauensis

My Yurii went straight into my normal fish aquaruim and is tiny with 3 leaves and not growing in size over the last 6 months.
Ferruginea and some Tonkinensis i bought that were also tissue i decided to split putting half in the fish tank and half in a emersed tank.

In the fish tank my Tonkinensis originally looked to be doing well then crashed after 2 months but in the emersed tank its grown bigger and stronger, i recently took a little bit of the emersed Tonkinensis back into the fish tank and growth excelerated and appears stable this time around.

The Ferruginea tissue culture plantlets in my fish tank are very tiny and weak but in my emersed tank although still relativly small they are very healthy looking and much more robust, its clear to me with tissue culture plants its best to grow them on for a few months in emerse humid conditions culture before placing them in a normal fish aquaruim.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Just to say that, in light of this weeks <"Thames Water "revelations">, I'm still doing the <"tarot card readings">.

I'd predict that the <"level will go up in UK tap water"> purely because we aren't investing anything like the money we should in infrastructure and our present government:

• Is a kleptocracy which is successfully asset-stripping the country for personal gain or
• Making difficult decisions, at a time of economic strife, before the Brexit bonus kicks in*.

cheers (somehow that doesn't seem quite the right word) Darrel

 

[MichaelJ]

Just to say that, in light of this weeks <"Thames Water "revelations">,

Just terrible. Fortunately, only 15 percent of the water companies here in the US are privately held - serving some 20% of the population - not sure how that compares to the UK.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Fortunately, only 15 percent of the water companies here in the US are privately held - serving some 20% of the population - not sure how that compares to the UK.

In Scotland water is a <"public utility"> and Welsh Water (Dwr Cyrmru) <"doesn't have any shareholders"> and is more like a building (saving and loans) society with membership ownership.

In England it is a bit different and the water companies were all privatised by the Conservative Government in the 1980s and 1990s. This raised some money for the government (mainly for tax cutting) and complied with their <"free market">,<"trickle down economics"> rhetoric. We haven't really departed from <"Thatcherism"> since the 1980s with even the Blair - Brown Labour government (1997 - 2010) largely following free market economics.

My local water company, Wessex Water, was <"briefly owned by Enron"> and now has <"2.4 billion pounds of debt">.

The <"Environment Agency"> and <"Ofwat"> are meant to regulate the different parts of the water industry, but the Environment Agency has been entirely hollowed out and now has a business model where it raises income by issuing <"permits to pollute">. They have largely replaced their scientists with administrators, because they aren't looking for pollution events in rivers etc. They've either permitted them to occur, or they've already happened and aren't a potential income stream.

It may <"sound cynical">, but I've watched it happen, via my day job, and none of this has occurred by chance.

cheers Darrel

 

[Hufsa]

People... what a bunch of bastards

 

[Guest]

It's massively cynical. The whole utilities setup needs reforming. None of them should be for profit. We've seen shareholders and corporations profit from the misery of others with fuel price increases and, more to the point here, profit at the expense of the environment as well. The Environment Agency used to be a powerful environmental regulator, now it's just a bureaucracy.

Meanwhile, these corporations and our government shift the burden of responsibility for environmental issues on to the public. It's a fundamentally corrupt system, a kleptocracy. A third world dictator would probably be less malevolent. The bottom line is that the taxpayer foots the bill but gets none of the profits or benefits. And it keeps on happening, Bailing out Network Rail, the banks, funding Big Pharma, etc.

 

[MichaelJ]

Hi all,

In Scotland water is a <"public utility"> and Welsh Water (Dwr Cyrmru) <"doesn't have any shareholders"> and is more like a building (saving and loans) society with membership ownership.

In England it is a bit different and the water companies were all privatised by the Conservative Government in the 1980s and 1990s. This raised some money for the government (mainly for tax cutting) and complied with their <"free market">,<"trickle down economics"> rhetoric. We haven't really departed from <"Thatcherism"> since the 1980s with even the Blair - Brown Labour government (1997 - 2010) largely following free market economics.

My local water company Wessex Water was <"briefly owned by Enron"> and now has <"2.4 billion pounds of debt">.

The <"Environment Agency"> and <"Ofwat"> are meant to regulate the different parts of the water industry, but the Environment Agency has been entirely hollowed out and now has a business model where it raises income by issuing <"permits to pollute">. They have largely replaced their scientists with administrators, because they aren't looking for pollution events in rivers etc. They've either permitted them to occur, or they've already happened and aren't a potential income stream.

It may <"sound cynical">, but I've watched it happen, via my day job, and none of this has occurred by chance.

cheers Darrel

Hi Darrel, thanks. This is just truly appalling. As Tim says above these companies should never have been attempted to be run as for profit. A water company for profit…?! It goes against all the good ideas and the philosophy of what true market economy is supposed to provide vs. public services.

On a side note; I thought I read some years ago that the Thames river was coming back to its past glory with respect to flora and fauna? With the raw sewage spillage and gutting of the Environmental Agency, I suppose that’s now down the drain… (pun intended). ?

Geez, and I thought we were the crazy ones here in the US, and the Europeans the smart ones… BREXIT happened I suppose. 😉

Cheers,
Michael

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

...On a side note; I thought I read some years ago that the Thames river was coming back to its past glory with respect to flora and fauna? With the raw sewage spillage and gutting of the Environmental Agency, I suppose that’s now down the drain… (pun intended..

Yes, the Thames is still a lot "cleaner" than it was, but you are starting from a datum of <"biologically dead" in the 1950s">.

Our water quality improved as our heavy industry declined, <"but is now declining again">.

A lot of people think that one of the main drivers for the architects of BREXIT was a desire to have <"bonfire of EU Environmental and Labour laws">.

Cheers Darrel

 

[DudeFromPantanal]

I think we can never get rid of potentially harmful microbes. I'm not a pro in microbiology but I've been trying to learn, reading books and scientific papers. Common sense tells me following:
(1) Healthy and robust plants routinely eliminate fungal and bacterial attempts.
(2) In-vitro plants are tiny and it's almost impossible not to damage them while planting. So their protective tissues are damaged. Generally, only fungi can penetrate healthy tissues. So, freshly re-planted in-vitro plants are exposed both to fungi and bacteria.
(3) In-vitro plants are kept in sterile conditions. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe their immunity reactions are retarded.
(4) Everything that promotes large fungal / bacterial populations increases the risks. All these 'Japanese' fertile soils be damned. They contain a lot of degradable organic matter, and thus support proliferation of bacteria and fungi. A secondary effect - increased oxygen demand - further weakens plants' resistance to pests.
(5) Whatever is the source of stress, dealing with it requires energy. Energy means respiration. Respiration means oxygen consumption. Lack of oxygen means death.

Originally, I believed that @Simon Cole could possibly suggest some fungicide which could be applicable, at least in newly established tanks without any fauna.

I always had planting melting isues with TC plants…. just absolutelly hate them… I culture them emersed for a long time and then put then underwater in an aquarium…. they are really a “kid of apartment”

 

[PARAGUAY]

ADA don't seem to have this problem ,tissue culture melt, if they do they don't tell us, Some cover Fluval Soil with Fluval Soil Powder to give those plants a better start

 

[Wookii]

ADA don't seem to have this problem ,tissue culture melt, if they do they don't tell us, Some cover Fluval Soil with Fluval Soil Powder to give those plants a better start

ADA are smart, in all the tank set-up videos from the ADA gallery that I've watched, I've never seen them use in-vitro plantlets, they often seem to use plants that appear to be a) matured, and b) already transitioned to their submerged form. Frequently they even use pre-made and actively growing Wabi-Kusa balls pre-planted , and simply place them at the rear of the tanks. Lots of their videos posted in this thread: The Art of Nature Aquarium

 

[_Maq_]

ADA don't seem to have this problem

In my experience, brand matters, indeed. Unfortunately, Tropica (1-2-Grow) seem not to belong among the more resilient.

 

[Hufsa]

In my experience, brand matters, indeed. Unfortunately, Tropica (1-2-Grow) seem not to belong among the more resilient.

You guys can blame the brand all you want 😛
Its not the invitro cups that are the problem, otherwise many more people would have issues, and particularly with Tropica cups if that was a problem.
There is something about some people's setups that seem to make the conditions "too hostile" (for lack of better word) for delicate invitro plants to deal with.
It would be really interesting to figure out exactly what is the factor or factors that makes it so.
If we dont know what causes it, it would be much harder to avoid it.

I have never experienced melting from an invitro plant after placing it in my tank.
I have of course experienced invitro cups that were already damaged when I got them, but none of the damage continued after placing into the tank.
I use only sand substrate. I would love to know if that is significant and why. Maq also uses sandy substrate, but he experiences issues with melting. So its about something more than that.
There are some general observations in the community that fresh aquasoil tends to melt invitro plants more than mature aquasoil.
But sometimes people also get melting in mature aquasoil, yeah?
Perhaps if everybody could report a few bits of data about their setup, like substrate, age of substate, water values like kh & gh etc, we could compile a database?
It might give insights into if there is a pattern here?

 

[Wookii]

You guys can blame the brand all you want 😛
Its not the invitro cups that are the problem, otherwise many more people would have issues, and particularly with Tropica cups if that was a problem.
There is something about some people's setups that seem to make the conditions "too hostile" (for lack of better word) for delicate invitro plants to deal with.
It would be really interesting to figure out exactly what is the factor or factors that makes it so.
If we dont know what causes it, it would be much harder to avoid it.

I have never experienced melting from an invitro plant after placing it in my tank.
I have of course experienced invitro cups that were already damaged when I got them, but none of the damage continued after placing into the tank.
I use only sand substrate. I would love to know if that is significant and why. Maq also uses sandy substrate, but he experiences issues with melting. So its about something more than that.
There are some general observations in the community that fresh aquasoil tends to melt invitro plants more than mature aquasoil.
But sometimes people also get melting in mature aquasoil, yeah?
Perhaps if everybody could report a few bits of data about their setup, like substrate, age of substate, water values like kh & gh etc, we could compile a database?
It might give insights into if there is a pattern here?

It's even worse to decipher than that, I've had cases where two different invitro pots have been planted side by side, one has melted to almost nothing, the other has been largely fine. I now @_Maq_ will start shaking uncontrollably, but I still think the very high levels of ammonia in some new aquasoil, particularly at the soil surface and perhaps beneath the top layer, are just too harsh for some invitro plants to handle - which is why you may have had less issues in sand.

I also think there is more to it than that, I think there could be a whole host of external factors in terms of how individual pots have been stored and handled, their exposure to different temperatures and light levels etc, and how old they are, before they arrive at the user that determine how well the plants will do. Ultimately they are very delicate, under developed plants, and it's not going to take much to affect how successfully they grow once planted.

 

[MrClockOff]

I had very similar issue with my new scape. I had pots of:

• criptocoryne crispatula
• staurogyne repens
• alternanthera reineckii mini
• marsilea hirsuta
• bucephalandra pygmea wavy green

only marsilea and cript did not melt. I did read staurogyne repens can melt and spread on other plants ( How to grow Staurogyne repens). Which kind of looked like a true facts in my case maybe.. Staurogyne repens neighbours were alternanthera and marsilea and whole staurogyne melted and most of alternanthera and marsilea which was closest to staurogyne.

However after a week or two staurogyne started showing new leaves from sticking out naked stems.

Btw my Tropica aquasoil was already 6 months old (I believe no ammonia + confirmed with API test)

EDIT:
Also I did start with 40 ish ppm CO2 and EI ferts from day 1

 

[_Maq_]

I've had cases where two different invitro pots have been planted side by side, one has melted to almost nothing, the other has been largely fine.

I second this experience. That's why I dared to say that Tropica does not occupy the top rank in my tables.

I now @_Maq_ will start shaking uncontrollably, but I still think the very high levels of ammonia in some new aquasoil, particularly at the soil surface and perhaps beneath the top layer, are just too harsh for some invitro plants to handle

Oh no, I'm fine.
Yet I repeat my belief that the effects of aquasoils are more complex, it's not just ammonia.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I know @_Maq_ will start shaking uncontrollably, but I still think the very high levels of ammonia in some new aquasoil, particularly at the soil surface and perhaps beneath the top layer, are just too harsh for some invitro plants to handle - which is why you may have had less issues in sand.

I think it could be an ammonia (NH3) effect as well <"My unfortunate vacation experience and "who dun it"">. I also think that <"damping off"> (Pythium) might be an issue.

cheers Darrel

 

[PARAGUAY]

In my experience, brand matters, indeed. Unfortunately, Tropica (1-2-Grow) seem not to belong among the more resilient.

This might be more to do with how they are kept before sale rather than quality.

 

[PARAGUAY]

Just missed @Wookii mention of this