• You are viewing the forum as a Guest, please login (you can use your Facebook, Twitter, Google or Microsoft account to login) or register using this link: Log in or Sign Up
  • You can now follow UKAPS on Instagram.

How intelligent are fish?

Joined
26 Feb 2013
Messages
3,395
Meanwhile, intellect is the ability to think, reason and understand?
Yes, and as far as I am concerned, even my dog can do that....
My dog may not be able to talk the way we do but she surely understands quite a few things. For example, since I started working from home, she has figured that me on the keyboard is a no,no and does not approach me until I get away from the desk. The moment I put the work stuff away, she comes up begging for attention. It is not because I gave out to her at any point...she just somehow knows I can't give her attention.
We also never thought her for example not to beg while eating but she somehow figured that if she stays in her bed while we eat, she gets something in the end as a reward. Most times she even heads to her bed when she smells the cooking....and waits there until we finish eating. She started doing this a decade ago, while she was still a puppy. She also knows how to tell me that her bowl is empty, which is by hitting it off the wall to make a sound. Her bowls are metal so instead of barking, she does that....
She's also learned other stuff and words by herself, without anyone teaching her and she keeps learning. For example, she loves playing with a ball.
And one day I figured that if I tell her, play with your blanket and point with my head towards the blanket, she actually does just that. She goes and hides her ball in her blanket pretending she doesn't know where it is, then searches for it....
If I say the word enough, she goes into hiding with her ball because she understands what the word means, that I want her to stop playing with her ball. I didn't teach her any of that on purpose. I say to her enough for many other things and she knows exactly what it means each time, not just in relation to playing with her ball.
In the evenings, if we mention something about being tired and sleepy or that if any of us is going to bed, she does the same, she heads to bed before we even manage to get up...
She's aware of what we're saying or our face expressions all the time and adjusts her behaviour to that. She listens and she learns all the time. And the rare times that I thought her something on purpose, she picks it up in no more than 10 mins and pretty much remembers it for life. Even I fail at that quite so often :D
And if you haven't seen a laughing dog, then you don't know anything:D
 

Wolf6

Member
Joined
18 Dec 2014
Messages
956
Location
Netherlands
One of the characteristics of intelligence is the ability to plan ahead and understand the principles of delayed reward. This would mean dogs don't fall into that category, they may learn that they are not allowed to do something but there won't be an understanding. Wolves however have shown to be able to plan far ahead and even be capable of planned betrayal (female wolf switching sides suddenly and eloping with a young male wolf while her pack was chasing away the young male intruder). But again this could be our interpretation of much simpler behaviors.
Even human behavior is more often unintelligent then intelligent. This makes our judgement prone to error as well :)
 
Joined
26 Feb 2013
Messages
3,395
One of the characteristics of intelligence is the ability to plan ahead and understand the principles of delayed reward. This would mean dogs don't fall into that category, they may learn that they are not allowed to do something
I disagree. Dogs definitely understand delayed reward without being given out to or threatened or given repeated instructions what to do in a certain situation. My dog just started doing the things she does, like waiting in her bed to be given a treat. Absolutely no one taught her that or told her off at any time. She just never begged at the table....She also goes on her good behaviour for things other than food, for a massage for example. She loves spine massage. In fact massage is her number one treat, then her red ball, then treats like human food.

Also, there've been many other interesting examples, like lately she had to have one of these things around her neck to prevent her from licking herself. She has a bad chronic anal gland infection we're fighting at the moment which does not look good....A different topic..... Anyway, she figured how to take this thing off in about 2 hours. And not just that, after she came to me without it wagging tail all happy, and I put it back on, she hid straight into her bed, it is a covered crate, and started taking it off. I followed her and looked in and I saw how she put her paw into the side where the sticky sticker is and pushed out with the paw until it got unstuck.
When she was a puppy, if she was to have an accident, she would hide when doing it, like walk into another room. She thought if we don't see her, it's not her.... Now that she knows better, if she has an accident, which is very rare, she would not do it in any room or on the floor but straight into her bed. She has 2 beds so I'd notice either by the smell or if she stops going to one of the beds. She thinks if it's her own bed, she's allowed. And obviously, she would only do it because she has no other choice.

She's now nearly 10 and I was at the vet just 10 mins ago with an emergency. She can't pass poop. She's been like that on and off for 2 months at least, many medications, 2 manual flushes under anaesthetic to clean her anal glands and stuck poop, many other vet visits and manual anal inspections and a lot of pain. She also had a massive allergic reaction of one of the meds they gave her 2 weeks ago and went downhill from there, it was when she got the fistulas too, started puking, went off her food and also NOT pooping for 7 days straight. The anal glands are fistulated now, which are holes literally, so poop pours out from many holes inside her and out, and she has abnormal tissue inside the anal glands which they say might be cancerous. They want them removed or put the dog to sleep. Removal of anal glands may mean incontinent dog and again a lot of pain.....And they can't give her anti-inflammatory at the moment, which is what she needs but the steroids would not let the fistulas repair themselves, if her body is healthy enough to do so actually because they think she's so bad, she's got no hope of that, and then again she nearly died from the non-steroidal anti-inflammatory 2 weeks ago, so that's off the table too. It's like they have only 2 kind of options for everything? Put to sleep or invasive operation or one steroid against an allergic reaction? I don't get get it. Why is medicine so limited? And right now I don't know what to do. She's half stable now for tonight at least.....If anyone has any advise, any alternatives, please shout.

Yeah, I rumbled on but I am upset.

Edit: And I keep telling myself my problems are nothing compared to some other people's One of my best friends lost her father to cancer, her sister to suicide in the space of 3 months 3 years ago. Then a year later her mother got diagnosed with cancer, barely pulling through with permanent disability. And 2 days ago my friend's son of 22 years of age died by an accident. So my sick dog of 10 years is a bleak experience in comparison.....
 
Last edited:

Wolf6

Member
Joined
18 Dec 2014
Messages
956
Location
Netherlands
I disagree. Dogs definitely understand delayed reward without being given out to or threatened or given repeated instructions what to do in a certain situation. My dog just started doing the things she does, like waiting in her bed to be given a treat. Absolutely no one taught her that or told her off at any time. She just never begged at the table....She also goes on her good behaviour for things other than food, for a massage for example. She loves spine massage. In fact massage is her number one treat, then her red ball, then treats like human food.

Also, there've been many other interesting examples, like lately she had to have one of these things around her neck to prevent her from licking herself. She has a bad chronic anal gland infection we're fighting at the moment which does not look good....A different topic..... Anyway, she figured how to take this thing off in about 2 hours. And not just that, after she came to me without it wagging tail all happy, and I put it back on, she hid straight into her bed, it is a covered crate, and started taking it off. I followed her and looked in and I saw how she put her paw into the side where the sticky sticker is and pushed out with the paw until it got unstuck.
When she was a puppy, if she was to have an accident, she would hide when doing it, like walk into another room. She thought if we don't see her, it's not her.... Now that she knows better, if she has an accident, which is very rare, she would not do it in any room or on the floor but straight into her bed. She has 2 beds so I'd notice either by the smell or if she stops going to one of the beds. She thinks if it's her own bed, she's allowed. And obviously, she would only do it because she has no other choice.

She's now nearly 10 and I was at the vet just 10 mins ago with an emergency. She can't pass poop. She's been like that on and off for 2 months at least, many medications, 2 manual flushes under anaesthetic to clean her anal glands and stuck poop, many other vet visits and manual anal inspections and a lot of pain. She also had a massive allergic reaction of one of the meds they gave her 2 weeks ago and went downhill from there, it was when she got the fistulas too, started puking, went off her food and also NOT pooping for 7 days straight. The anal glands are fistulated now, which are holes literally, so poop pours out from many holes inside her and out, and she has abnormal tissue inside the anal glands which they say might be cancerous. They want them removed or put the dog to sleep. Removal of anal glands may mean incontinent dog and again a lot of pain.....And they can't give her anti-inflammatory at the moment, which is what she needs but the steroids would not let the fistulas repair themselves, if her body is healthy enough to do so actually because they think she's so bad, she's got no hope of that, and then again she nearly died from the non-steroidal anti-inflammatory 2 weeks ago, so that's off the table too. It's like they have only 2 kind of options for everything? Put to sleep or invasive operation or one steroid against an allergic reaction? I don't get get it. Why is medicine so limited? And right now I don't know what to do. She's half stable now for tonight at least.....If anyone has any advise, any alternatives, please shout.

Yeah, I rumbled on but I am upset.

Edit: And I keep telling myself my problems are nothing compared to some other people's One of my best friends lost her father to cancer, her sister to suicide in the space of 3 months 3 years ago. Then a year later her mother got diagnosed with cancer, barely pulling through with permanent disability. And 2 days ago my friend's son of 22 years of age died by an accident. So my sick dog of 10 years is a bleak experience in comparison.....
Let's continue our interesting discussion at a moment when this is all past, and for now I wish you the wisdom to make the best choice for your dog... as you might be able to tell we too have a dog and it's almost never a situation of 'this is the moment to put them to sleep'. Our previous dog had DM, which is kind of like ALS for dogs in that they lose control over their hind legs. At first it's just them being a bit clumsy and walking funny and progresses into falling and being unable to walk. The only upside to that affliction was that is was painless and that for once it was clear when the day had come. He didn't want to go walkies anymore, something that had never happened before. And when we did he just wanted to go home, just standing there looking at us. No more joy. Nobody can tell you when the time for your dog has come, though vets can give hints at what they think. In the end it's down to our guess at their overall happiness under the affliction and operations they need to undergo. I wish you the best and you have my sympathy!
 

zozo

Member
Joined
16 Apr 2015
Messages
8,302
Location
Netherlands
I don't get get it. Why is medicine so limited? And right now I don't know what to do. She's half stable now for tonight at least.....If anyone has any advise, any alternatives, please shout.

The thing is with lots of animals if the trauma isn't acute but a slow-growing process they are extremely good at hiding discomfort and pain. Then by the time, slow lingering diseases in soft tissue submerge with noticeably effect on behaviour and comfort it very often is already too far gone and many times beyond any practical help such as (extremely expensive) surgery with a high risk of going from bad to worse. Then all there is left is medication for symptom control and pain relief and then you can't do anything else than wait and hope for the best.

If she isn't in too much pain and still has a healthy appetite then there is a will to live and this can go a long way.

It's very painful to lose a beloved friend and even more if you have to be the one to decide when her life is no longer life worth living. That's one of the toughest choices to make.

There wasn't a day in my life that I wasn't surrounded by dogs and cats etc. I know the situation and feeling and can only say from first-hand experience nobody can tell you what to do.

Best wishes to you and your friend.
 
Joined
26 Feb 2013
Messages
3,395
If she isn't in too much pain and still has a healthy appetite then there is a will to live and this can go a long way

Thanks Marcel. I decided to take one day at a time. She was ok yesterday and managed to go to the toilet, also ate all her food. I incorporated some home remedies to help her immune system and ordered some very expensive freeze dried food. Her stomach was destroyed from the pile of antibiotics they gave her, hence the vomiting issues, so she's also on pro-biotics But surprisingly, she was really hungry yesterday, which is good. She also hasn't vomited in a week and I'll be hoping for a miracle literally because the vet said she will not recover her normal functions, she's lost the elasticity around the anal glands, tissue is abnormal and stiff, and the fistulas won't repair as she's too far gone. She's probably right but I can't make another decision yet. She was not in pain yesterday I think. We played ball as well for a good bit in the evening and then she fell asleep happily while trying to lick my hand.
Angie 09.12.2021.jpg
Angie 09.12.2021 1.jpg
 

zozo

Member
Joined
16 Apr 2015
Messages
8,302
Location
Netherlands
I decided to take one day at a time.

That's the best approach... Love and a will to live with a healthy appetite and diet can do little miracles. It might not heal, but it can improve and stabilize. And all we can do is hope for it without any guarantees. As long as it doesn't get worse then you have a dog with a handicap, then help her as best as you can to relieve her difficulties. And pain is an unmeasurable factor but it can be something you can learn to live with if there is no way to remedy it. Don't drive yourself mad with doom scenario's and stay positive. She will smell when you are under stress and this won't help her.

Something that might sound insensitive, but there is a time for us all to go one day you can't do much about it. When it's time its time. Stressing out about it is never a relief and not a good time it only makes it worse and more painful. Controlling stress is a thought process/switch and state of mind. Easy to say and I can't tell you how to do that... In my case, I learned it the hard way from experiences at a young age. And I never want that feeling again so I think it away in a positive sense.

Anyway, something very healthy for dogs, cats, all animals and also us are the Omega-3 oil supplements or even better freshly cooked. That might help... Not the best topic for this thread to tell where it comes from. So I leave it at that.

Good luck!... 😘
 
Joined
26 Feb 2013
Messages
3,395
Anyway, something very healthy for dogs, cats, all animals and also us are the Omega-3 oil supplements or even better freshly cooked. That might help... Not the best topic for this thread to tell where it comes from. So I leave it at that.
Thanks Marcel.

Any recommendations what exactly to get for dogs? PM is fine if not ok in the thread. I was thinking the same lines, try the natural remedies. I already started her on some stuff I have around the house. I give her turmeric in the food, dry probiotic and for the last 3 nights she got juice from fermented vegetables. I ferment them myself for the same reason, as they're very healthy for the gut and immune system. She also loves coconut oil, so I give her a bit of that too, as it is a natural anti-inflammatory like the turmeric. So far fingers crossed. She pooped 5 times this evening, twice this morning, and just until 5 mins ago she ran around after the ball like a lunatic. :D I also put some vitamin E on the glands outside, and another herbal ointment, to help the healing process, if it wants to start.....Either way, I think it can't hurt, given the prognosis I was given..... And hopefully the new food arrives soon....

P.S. Forgot to feed the fish for 3 days:rolleyes:
 

zozo

Member
Joined
16 Apr 2015
Messages
8,302
Location
Netherlands
All oily fish contain omega 3 fats.


When she likes it, it is a good option to put in the diet.


They are not only intelligent but darn healthy too...
 
Joined
26 Feb 2013
Messages
3,395
Something that might sound insensitive, but there is a time for us all to go one day you can't do much about it. When it's time its time. Stressing out about it is never a relief and not a good time it only makes it worse and more painful. Controlling stress is a thought process/switch and state of mind. Easy to say and I can't tell you how to do that... In my case, I learned it the hard way from experiences at a young age. And I never want that feeling again so I think it away in a positive sense.

I just wanted to say, it is not insensitive to me at all. It is just that I always had it in my mind that she would live to 16 or so, because she's a Jack Russell. Well, maybe that's not her story. The only story I want to say is that she has taught me to be a good human being. And the most important thing of all is, that no one, not even the people which have been the closest to me for my entire live, have looked me in the eye with such honesty and trust, and love. She is a pure soul. Her name is Angie.
 
Joined
26 Feb 2013
Messages
3,395
Hey, Happy Christmas and Holidays to everyone.

I just wanted to say that my dog Angie has been ok since. She's getting her spirits back and goes to the toilet regularly, so far so good, and it's been the longest period without a vet visit in months.
She's been on her new food which I had mentioned, some cooked stuff like liver, chicken, salmon. She's taking laxative, which is the only thing I need the vet for now, to prevent her stools from getting too hard, also DMG, which is another name for B15, an immune booster and natural immunomodulator, also B12 because I suspect an autoimmune disease related to lack of it from what I researched, CBD oil to help pain and hopefully her immune system as well, and my home made probiotics for her digestive issues and vomiting. I also put an ointment on her after we go out on the affected area from coconut oil, CBD oil and vitamin E, which I mix up myself, for healing and antiseptic properties.

She seems happy, plays ball and runs around every day, and she does not seem to be in any pain at all these days. I hope it continues. The vet prediction that I'd be back in no more than 2 days has not materialized yet but it's still early days...I hope I am not getting hopeful too soon....She'll never be 100% again because her fistulas can't close up I think or even if they do, they can open backup but right now it doesn't seem to make any difference to her daily stuff and if I can manage it, it's what matters.

Angie 27.12.2021.jpg
 
Last edited:

MirandaB

Member
Joined
28 Apr 2013
Messages
1,084
Location
Suffolk/Norfolk Border
She seems happy, plays ball and runs around every day, and she does not seem to be in any pain at all these days. I hope it continues. The vet prediction that I'd be back in no more than 2 days has not materialized yet but it's still early days...I hope I am not getting hopeful too soon....She'll never be 100% again because her fistulas can't close up I think or even if they do, they can open backup but right now it doesn't seem to make any difference to her daily stuff and if I can manage it, it's what matters.
Happy Christmas and I'm so pleased there's a positive update :happy:
 
Joined
26 Feb 2013
Messages
3,395
We walked to the car yesterday, which is kept in a parking, just to check on it as we hadn't used it for a while.
When Angie saw the car she got so excited thinking we're going somewhere so we actually had to, unplanned trip to a natural park :D Healthy spirit in a healthy body, right?

Angie 29.12.2021 Park 4.jpg


Angie 29.12.2021.jpg

Angie 29.12.2021 Park.jpg


Angie 29.12.2021 Park 3.jpg

Angie 29.12.2021 Park 2.jpg
 
Top