How do I know if cloudiness is bacteria bloom or suspended sediment?

[MarcusA]

Hello all.

I started a new tank 3 weeks ago, and it is very cloudy
As it is a new tank, I would attribute to this to bacterial bloom, but I also used Safe-T-Sorb (a calcined clay product) as the substrate, which is known for having a lot of fine sediment in it.
If the cloudiness is bacterial, I would just let it be, but if it is caused by sediment, I would take measures to clean it. So I'm in a bit of a dilemma.

More info:
It has been cloudy from Day 1.
It has no livestock except for a few pest snails and a some struggling rotala.
The cloudiness has a brown tinge. But there are also large pieces of new driftwood in the tank which may be coloring the water.
Normally, when I check the filter, the filter floss looks very clean, like it's not catching anything. However, I tried a product called Acurel F, which I believe is a flocculant, and the cloudiness cleared right up, and the filter floss quickly became very dirty. This was nice, but the cloudiness soon returned. When I squeezed the filter floss out, it was filled with loads of blackish dirt. This makes me think sediment, but I don't know much about these things.
For a while, I was adding the Acurel F and squeezing out the floss daily, but I ran out of Acurel F and I'm undecided on whether I was really accomplishing anything.
I have been dosing fertilizer (macros and micros) on behalf of the rotala.
I have added large amounts of sodium bicarbonate and GH booster to counteract the water softening properties of the calcined clay, but the chemistry of it all is a bit above my head. I basically just trawl forums like this and do what smarter people tell me to do.
The tank has gone through three 50% water changes so far.

In conclusion,
I don't know whether I should (a) let the tank be, (b) continue the Acurel F + floss squeezing regime or (c) do a lot of water changes.
...and thank you to anyone who has read this whole manifesto!

 

[Hanuman]

Does the cloudiness decrease after a water change and then increases again progressively the following day or 2? If so this could be a bacterial bloom but not necessarily. It could also be the substrate releasing some dust. Was the Safe-T-Sorb rinsed before use?
Since the setup is new and if this is a bacterial bloom, this should resolve by itself. You can also use a UV filter and see if the cloudiness goes away. Don't forget to stuff your filter with floss and clean it regularly. If the cloudiness goes away then it was a bacterial bloom else it most probably is dust and only water changes will resolve this.

I have added large amounts of sodium bicarbonate

May I ask why? If you intend to increase KH there are other options such as:

• Calcium Carbonate
• Magnesium Carbonate
• Potassium Bicarbonate: this one being the preferred option.
• Potassium Carbonate

The following two have no business being used in a freshwater planted tank due to the sodium content.

• Sodium Bicarbonate
• Sodium Carbonate

 

[MarcusA]

The following two have no business being used in a freshwater planted tank due to the sodium content.

• Sodium Bicarbonate

Uh-oh. As I recall, the KH was at 1, and I used sodium bicarbonate to raise it to match my tap water, which is 7, and it went back to 1, and I raised it again. So it was quite a bit of sodium bicarbonate going into the tank. Is that bad?
I was looking another forum where Rex Grigg says "the sodium in sodium bicarbonate doesn't harm plants." I lack any expertise in this area and must rely on others.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I started a new tank 3 weeks ago, and it is very cloudy
As it is a new tank, I would attribute to this to bacterial bloom, but I also used Safe-T-Sorb (a calcined clay product) as the substrate, which is known for having a lot of fine sediment in it.
If the cloudiness is bacterial, I would just let it be, but if it is caused by sediment, I would take measures to clean it. So I'm in a bit of a dilemma.

I would honestly just leave it to settle down, have a look at <"Seasoned Tank Time">. If you are using tap water in the tank? just do a series of large volume tap water changes until you've got rid of all the sodium (Na).

I'd also take the <"floss out of the filter">, I don't like any <"mechanical filtration in filter body">, I like it all in an easy clean pre-filter.

I'm a <"floating plant obsessive">, so I would definitely add one, it doesn't really matter which one.

So it was quite a bit of sodium bicarbonate going into the tank. Is that bad?

Yes, it depends a <"little on the plant"> as to how detrimental the sodium (Na+) is. Hard, alkaline water usually contains some sodium, but softer water doesn't. Rotala rotundifolia is a <"soft water plant">, so the sodium won't be doing it any good at all.

I was looking another forum where Rex Grigg says "the sodium in sodium bicarbonate doesn't harm plants." I lack any expertise in this area and must rely on others.

I'm not trying to be funny, but just ignore what you read on other forums about growing plants, water hardness, pH stability, <"nitrification"> etc.

I'm not knocking Rex Grigg, he is good on some things and not so good on others <"Water Chemistry & The Planted Tank"> If you read this then I'm going to say one of the things he doesn't really fully understand is water chemistry, but I agree with his <"view on buffers"> etc.

<"Rex Grigg says">

Work with the water you have. Not against it.

Which is pretty sage advice.

I'm honestly not knocking him, water chemistry <"is a complicated subject">, there are a lot of moving bits and you can't <"extrapolate from hard to soft water"> etc. I've recently found that a couple of things, that I thought that I understood, <"but now find that I didn't">.

@Roland keeps <"tanks at 0dKH"> and I'd say that is a <"pretty conclusive argument"> that you don't need any carbonate hardness, in fact many of our members will be <"keeping planted tanks and livestock"> at very low dKH levels.

Personally I have a nominal amount of carbonate hardness, that is just because <"I'm a rainwater user"> and our rainwater picks up some limestone dust. The advantage for me is that it allows me to keep <"some of the hardier snail species"> (and I'm a snail fan).

cheers Darrel

 

[tam]

Scoop out a glass full and see if it settles?

 

[bazz]

It has been cloudy from Day 1.
It has no livestock except for a few pest snails and a some struggling rotala.

Cloudy from day one leads me to believe it's a substrate issue, although I could quite possibly be wrong.
You have next to no or very little flora and fauna so what I (personally) would do is use the next week or two to do multiple water changes while agitating the substrate, in essence rinsing it out in a big bucket.
If you have no joy with this then it must be bacterial.
I didn't know what safe t sorb was so I did a quick Google and the first thing that came up was a Bentley Pascoe vid where he speaks very highly of it as a substrate.
Cheers!

 

[Hanuman]

Yes, it depends a <"little on the plant"> as to how detrimental the sodium (Na+) is. Hard, alkaline water usually contains some sodium, but softer water doesn't. Rotala rotundifolia is a <"soft water plant">, so the sodium won't be doing it any good at all.

I was looking another forum where Rex Grigg says "the sodium in sodium bicarbonate doesn't harm plants." I lack any expertise in this area and must rely on others.

As Darel says.
Sodium is sodium and if you keep pounding on sodium bicarbonte you'll end up with loads of sodium in the water which is probably a very bad idea unless you want to end up with a reef tank. I'm being excessive here, but sodium will simply accumulate since you keep on adding.

Anyway, I am not sure why you want to raise the KH since your tap water is already at 7KH. Let the substrate suck all it can, it will then eventually stabilize. If you still want to raise the KH then avoid all sodium based carbonates. Go for potassium bicarbonate instead.

 

[Hufsa]

The Sodium bicarbonate is just going straight into the Safe-T-Sorb. Thats where the KH is going.
You're basically filling the CEC of the substrate with sodium bicarbonate, and that wont do anything for plant growth.
If the substrate is really hungry at startup like I have read this kind can be, I would suggest you rather fill it with a lot of nice plant nutrients. Dose ferts heavily while you wait for or work on the cloudiness and teething issues to pass. Dont introduce any livestock until the tank is no longer volatile. Ive heard Safe-T-Sorb recommended by americans, but it does have a certain "run in" period.

Edit: Perhaps a micron filter pad could help you with the dust

 

[MichaelJ]

Can someone explain the benefit of using Montmorillonite Clay (Safe-T-Sorb) as substrate?

@MarcusA, If you had this cloudiness from day 1 as you say, it's not a bacterial bloom but rather dust particles from the clay that never gets to settle.

You may have success deploying a water polishing filter that can trap those fine particle such as this from Marineland. I own the smaller/older model and its really been efficient the few times I've used it in my tanks.

Unless you're planning to keep Rift valley cichlids, stop trying to raise your KH ... if you insist on raising it, at least use a different carbonate/bicarbonate agent than Sodium bicarbonate (sodium has no business in a planted aquarium) - i.e. one of the compounds @Hanuman suggests above.


Cheers,
Michael

 

[MarcusA]

Thank you all for the replies.
As of now, the tank is still super cloudy. And now there are clumps of what appears to be diatom algae all over everything. My understanding is that the diatoms and the cloudiness are two different issues. Is this right?

Scoop out a glass full and see if it settles?

This was a nice simple idea. I tried it, and there was no settling, at least not over the course of 24 hours.

Cloudy from day one leads me to believe it's a substrate issue, although I could quite possibly be wrong.
You have next to no or very little flora and fauna so what I (personally) would do is use the next week or two to do multiple water changes while agitating the substrate, in essence rinsing it out in a big bucket.

This was precisely my thinking, but the water seems to get worse and worse despite the water changes, which led me to wonder if it is bacterial. In addition, I did rinse the substrate before putting it in, but I've heard it is best to also sieve it beforehand and I didn't have the patience (or the sieve) for that.

Anyway, I am not sure why you want to raise the KH since your tap water is already at 7KH.

Normally I wouldn't touch it, but I heard that the substrate strips out KH so I just wanted to use the sodium bicarbonate to quickly "satiate" the substrate and allow the tank to establish its normal equilibrium KH. That was the thinking anyways

The Sodium bicarbonate is just going straight into the Safe-T-Sorb. Thats where the KH is going.
You're basically filling the CEC of the substrate with sodium bicarbonate, and that wont do anything for plant growth.

What I am really curious about is whether this sodium is going to sit in the substrate forever, fouling things up and causing me grief, or whether it will eventually sort of go away. Surely now that I've stopped adding the sodium bicarbonate, it won't cause me too much trouble, right?

Can someone explain the benefit of using Montmorillonite Clay (Safe-T-Sorb) as substrate?

Cheapness. Here, it's like $8 for 33 pounds of it vs. $28 for 20 pounds of eco-complete, which I think includes water weight. Also, it looks quite nice when it's not obscured by a pervasive, Mordor-like murk. I was looking at that very polishing filter you mentioned, but I'm still feeling the sticker shock from setting up the rest of the tank.
Anyways, thanks again for the replies. I thought I was signed up to get email notifications but didn't receive any, so I didn't realize this thread was still getting attention. Since the tank is still basically empty, I'm not overly worried about it just yet, but I will keep you updated.

 

[SteveMid]

You could try scooping out a jar of the cloudy tank water and place a small piece of one your stem plants in the jar. Put the jar in a warm place with plenty of natural sunlight . After a few days, small specs of infusoria may develop and the water clear slightly - this would indicate that that it is more likely a bacterial bloom and that maybe by adding some more plants into your tank and sitting things out it will eventually clear on its own.

 

[Andy Pierce]

In my experience, bacterial has this characteristic bluish whitiness slight opalescence to it. If it's anything else, it's probably not bacteria. In any event, the bacteria will sort itself out (if you don't mess with the tank) over 3 or 4 days so if it's still there a week later, either you're messing with it, or it is not bacteria.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Normally I wouldn't touch it, but I heard that the substrate strips out KH so I just wanted to use the sodium bicarbonate to quickly "satiate" the substrate and allow the tank to establish its normal equilibrium KH. That was the thinking anyways

If you are worried about low carbonate hardness (dKH) inhibiting nitrification? You don't need to worry, the microbes that actually perform nitrification in aquariums don't require high carbonate hardness, or additional ammonia (NH3).

Have a look at <"The nitrifying microbes in aquariums and cycling"> & <"Correspondence with Dr Ryan Newton - School of Freshwater Sciences, University of Wisconsin—Milwaukee">.

What I am really curious about is whether this sodium is going to sit in the substrate forever, fouling things up and causing me grief, or whether it will eventually sort of go away. Surely now that I've stopped adding the sodium bicarbonate, it won't cause me too much trouble, right?

No, it should be exchanged for the calcium (Ca++) ions from the tap water. This means that you would get a pulse of high sodium (Na) as two Na+ ions were exchanged for each calcium (Ca++) ion, but they will soon be gone. Once the substrate has reached equilibrium with the tank water, it will stop exchanging ions.

Cation Exchange is entirely straight forward, but basically multivalent ions are more strongly bound than monovalent ions. The <"Lenntech ion exchange primer"> is really useful <"KH, GH and aquasoil">.

cheers Darrel