giant tank for killis

[killi69]

Here is a short video clip I made on my phone this evening - apologies for shaky footage;


The needle grass is growing slowly, sending out runners in some places but is thinning out in others. I have over the last few weeks seriously cut back the Aponogeton crispus red in an attempt to increase the flow. These plants have been growing like mad, with leaves of 1 meter long!

two weeks ago;


last week;


I have also started removing the flower stalks which the plants are now sending out regularly. I have been told the plants die back after flowering. I know that is true for some Aponogeton species, not sure whether it applies to the A. crispus, but I thought I better err on the side of caution.

So despite these trimmings, I don't think enough CO2 is reaching ground level (60cm deep), let alone travelling backwards along the 'alley' in between both islands where the grass is thinning. I have been increasing CO2 levels but yesterday the lampeyes in particular were in distress, so increased flow now seems my only option. It is also useful for me to know that the lampeyes appear to be most sensitive to too much CO2 - good indicators for future reference.

I am thinking about changing one of my filters, swapping the Eheim Pro2 for a Fluval FX5. Not only will a more powerful pump help with CO2 delivery, with increased flow I will also be able to afford to place pre-filters over the inlets inside the tank to prevent fry from being sucked up. At the moment, I think installing pre-filters would decrease my flow too much.

I would still want to keep the 16/22 tubing system and diy spraybars (one mounted horizontally at the top of the tank pointing downwards distributing the CO2, plus another mounted at the top of the back panel pointing forwards). I would then be running an Eheim Pro 3 on one of the spray bars and the FX5 on the other. I have been looking into ways of connecting the larger diameter FX5 outlets to 16/22 tubing, does anyone have any experience or tips in doing this ?

 

[Iain Sutherland]

have you considered another eheim instead of the fx5, larger diameter tubing does have its own issues and ive always found its best keeping it simple. Would a 2076 or 2078 not do the job?
If you get the stainless filter guards, i found they dont reduce flow at all, especially if the inlet tube is open ended..
thanks for the vid, the killis look awesome!!

 

[ceg4048]

Hello,
Restricting the FX5 output to a 16mm ID tube will reduce the flow of the FX5 by almost 50% and will therefore be self defeating. If you want to use 16mm tubing then you might as well use the filter whose output specifications are for 16mm tubing.

in the thread http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=23268 James3200 mentions that he uses an Eheim 2260 with an externally mounted pump upgrade to boost the throughtput rating, so you might consider that option.

Cheers,

 

[killi69]

Thank you very much Iain and Ceg for your advice.

I think this is what you are referring to Iain;

Would its width of 17mm be ok for my 16/22 pipes?

So the FX5 is out. I also really need to remember to take the size of my cabinet into account. The 2180 I bought recently did not fit either and now stands next to the tank . My second filter must be able to fit into the cabinet. The cabinet door opening is 48cm high. Inside cupboard space is 55cm. If really necessary, this could be extended to 64cm if I cut a hole in the base of the cabinet...

The current rated output of my second filter is 1140 l/hr, so to improve on this, the main options of Eheims I am now considering;

1. Eheim 2074 - 1500 l/hr - 40cm tall; would comfortably fit into cupboard, but would the increased flow of an extra (rated) 360 l/hr be sufficient?
2. Eheim 2076 - 1650 l/hr - 47cm tall; would fit in with a squeeze BUT would 8cm above filter taps give me enough space to clip off the tube inlet unit for filter maintenance ??
3. Adding an external pump to the circuit of the Pro2 (as described in the thread Ceg referred to). Could I add an Eheim 3000 to the input or output of the Pro2?

Thanks for your help and feedback

 

[killi69]

New addition to tank; Microctenopoma ansorgii, an Anabantoid fish from Congo/Zaire/Cameroon. Have been looking for these for a while and only managed to find two, so still looking for a few more.



I think they will compliment my killis nicely. They are a really unusual and interesting fish - if you can see them. They are quite shy and only come out when lights are dimmed. But it is a real treat when you can see them popping out from the plant cover. I can't wait for them to colour up - check out what they will look like;




Another addition I have been quite excited about;LED colour light strips. They come with remote control giving me a wide choice of colours as well as the ability to control the brightness.






normal lighting


led night light ('yellow')


I was so impressed, I bought a second set to create more concentrated lighting above the focal point of the tank;


I would REALLY recommend this lighting. Before, I would regularly 'over-ride' the timer switch on my main lighting unit and switch lights on in the mornings when feeding fish or keep them on late at night. Now I have the LED lights come on in the mornings and late evenings and I can watch the tank for as long as I like without any negative impact on the plants (lights are too dim for plant growth).

The LED lights can create totally different and natural looking atmospheres, some enhancing the colours of plants and fish, others making them look different, creating a cold or eerie feeling - especially when dimmed down low.

Shy fish seem to gain confidence with the dim lighting. Both M. ansorgii fish mentioned above come out within minutes of this lighting going on.

So many different atmospheres possible, especially with the dimmer option and second set. It is quite difficult to capture the dim lit atmosphere with my phone camera - I used night mode function and the pictures look brighter than real life.

One colour;






Combinations;

 

[Ady34]

Hi Andre,
Tank is looking great, new fish are very nice, and the new led lighting effect is a great addition to help prolong the viewing period.
A FTS from afar would be nice now to get a good sense if scale and presence in the room
Really like this tank, one of my favourites and a great journal to read.
Cheerio
Ady

 

[foxfish]

Beautiful fish & those lights look like fun 🙂
Your tank looks superb....

 

[prdad]

A lovely Sunday morning read and a real eye for detail. I bet you get lost in that tank for hours!

 

[Gary Nelson]

The lights look cool - where did you get them from and how much?

 

[BigTom]

Very nice Microctenopoma, they're another group that's been on my wishlist for a while. Tank is looking great as well - anything breeding yet?

 

[killi69]

by Ady34 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:06 am

Hi Andre,
Tank is looking great, new fish are very nice, and the new led lighting effect is a great addition to help prolong the viewing period.
A FTS from afar would be nice now to get a good sense if scale and presence in the room
Really like this tank, one of my favourites and a great journal to read.
Cheerio
Ady

Hi Ady, glad you like it. I will post a FTS later on, need to tidy up room first .

by foxfish » Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:00 am

Beautiful fish & those lights look like fun
Your tank looks superb....

Thank you foxfish. Cant imagine not having the lights now. It has taken my tank experience to another level. Being able to create a different mood without having to change the layout... Much better than the standard blue 'moonlight' strips you see more usually. This system does allow for this blue colour as well but I find it looks too unnatural. A very dim yellow /green/ white looks far more like a natural moonlight effect. Quite mesmerising with all the other lights in the room switched off.

by prdad » Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:17 am

A lovely Sunday morning read and a real eye for detail.

Cheers prdad. I enjoy having a record of the tank's development and looking back to see how it has come along. I learn so much from reading other posts on this forum, I hope others might find some of the information here useful in the future.

I bet you get lost in that tank for hours!

Ahem... how did you guess?? My girlfriend says the tank is a chick magnet . Can't say I have put this theory to the test but I doubt my ex wife would subscribe to this .

by Gary Nelson » Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:18 am

The lights look cool - where did you get them from and how much?

I bought them from Maplin, two sets costing £75 each. Each set consists of a standard kit and extension kit, with a total of 6 x 50cm strips per set.
http://www.maplin.co.uk/flexible-rgb-strip-lighting-kit-592878

After I bought the first set, I saw an almost identical one (6 x 50cm strips, plus remote) for £40 on Amazon; http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00407EXF2/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00

I bought this set and found that it is almost identical to the Maplin kit;


However, the remote controls of both sets interfered with each other (eg green button on one made yellow light on other come on etc). Although the yellow lights on the Maplin sets are better IMO (more yellow), the lights and functions of both types are otherwise identical and buying them from Amazon would be quite a bit cheaper.

Because I wanted to be able to use two sets with one remote, I returned the Amazon set and bought another Maplin set. I have placed the infra-red remote control receiver at either side of the tank so that I can still adjust each set independently.

There is another thread on the forum of something similar sold by IKEA;http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=22370&p=229453&hilit=ikea+dioder#p229453 These sets are cheaper still. From what I remember these strips are only 25cm long though and I am not sure whether they have the dimmer function - which would be a real shame to do without.;

 

[killi69]

by BigTom » Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:50 pm

Very nice Microctenopoma, they're another group that's been on my wishlist for a while. Tank is looking great as well - anything breeding yet?

Thanks Tom, the Microctenopoma are really hard to find. I have requested four LFS's to look out for them for me, so hopefully some more will come through soon. There's plenty of mating going on in the tank and I occasionally come across eggs laid on plants etc.


Already a small group of juvenile Chromaphyosemions has appeared by themselves. Not actively breeding anything at the moment, apart from rescuing small fry caught up in the filter. Quite an efficient breeding method in a way 😀. Have about 20 or so fry coming on now. I feed them crushed flake and hatch baby brine shrimp, which the adults killis also love gorging themselves on.

 

[Nathaniel Whiteside]

Hey, hows this coming along mate?

 

[sanj]

I am going through a phase of being quite bored of aquascapes, not that I dont find them nice, just that I (and largely "we") have seen it all before. Still I do like seeing stuff like this. This a jungle tank created for particular types of fish; Killies. Not many keep them this way even if they keep them at all. This is interesting stuff. Thank you. Please keep taking photos. I love the anabantoids too.

 

[killi69]

Whitey89 wrote
Hey, hows this coming along mate?

Hi Nathaniel. Time for a quick update before heading off for our Xmas dinner.

Plants growing ok. Slow overall but then most of the plants are ferns. I had to move some of the Aponogetons away from the centre as they were growing too much into the gap in between the two islands. Here is picture taken just before I moved them;


Here are some current pics of tank;

Ady wrote
A FTS from afar would be nice now to get a good sense if scale and presence in the room
Really like this tank, one of my favourites and a great journal to read.
Cheerio
Ady

Here you go Ady


I am having some trouble with hair algae growing in the higher regions of the tank especially;


I have reduced the lighting period to six hours a day. Tried increasing CO2 further but unfortunately that led to some casualties among my lampeyes, so I am running at maximum levels possible. Also the hair grass carpet is still very thin. I bought a new filter, replacing the Eheim Pro2 with its 1140 l/hr rated output with an Eheim 2076, rated at 1650 l/hr. This is running alongside the more powerful 2180. I notice the plants at the bottom swaying more in the flow now, so i hope I am going to see an improvement in the carpet soon.

I have started double dosing EI ferts as the plant mass is very high. Not sure if it was needed or not?

I noticed an interesting plant(?) growing in between some ferns and wood at the back of the tank, about one third from the surface. At first it looked like a clump of algea but I think its actually a plant. I moved a little towards the front to take a picture.



It does not seem invasive. Does anyone know what it is??

Sanj wrote

I am going through a phase of being quite bored of aquascapes, not that I dont find them nice, just that I (and largely "we") have seen it all before. Still I do like seeing stuff like this. This a jungle tank created for particular types of fish; Killies. Not many keep them this way even if they keep them at all. This is interesting stuff. Thank you. Please keep taking photos. I love the anabantoids too.

Thanks Sanj, I will post some more pics over next few days.

Thanks for reading,
Andre

 

[ceg4048]

I am having some trouble with hair algae growing in the higher regions of the tank especially;



I have started double dosing EI ferts as the plant mass is very high. Not sure if it was needed or not?

Theoretically, this is not really a good idea. You should always know if you need to add more nutrients. It's not a good idea to either add more or to add less without knowing why. The "Why" of adding more nutrients can only be related to a nutrient deficiency. If you are not observing nutrient deficiencies then you should not add more nutrients for the following reason:


Having a CO2 related issue happens to be one of those case where you should avoid adding more nutrients willy-nilly. The theoretical reason is that adding more Nitrogen to the system increases the plants demand for carbohydrates. Carbohydrates are required in order to use the Nitrogen. Therefore, Nitrogen uptake is "coupled" to CO2 uptake, i.e. adding more N causes an increased demand for C, and adding more C causes an extra demand for N.

Since you are already exhibiting a carbohydrate shortfall it would not be wise to increase the demand for carbohydrates. If you were suffering a Nitrogen shortfall at the same time that you were experiencing a carbon shortfall, then that would be OK, because you'd need to solve the N issue in any case. But since you have not reported suffering an N deficiency, in this case, adding more N will expose the plants' Carbon deficiency even more.

If adding more gas is no longer an option, then you need to choose a different path. Liquid carbon supplementation would be good short term (due to cost), but lowering the CO2 demand by reducing light is an option. You might also wish to consider chopping back the ferns severely in order to allow better flow to the carpet plants. The same thing that's causing the hair algae is what's causing slow growth of the carpet - lack of CO2. Adding more flow to overcome the fern blockade, of course, is another option. Any combination of these will work.

Cheers,

 

[WetElbow]

Love your tank. Looks lush and healthy. A great journal to date.

 

[Iain Sutherland]

Looking lovely andre, great to see an insitu shot... easy to forget how big this tank is! There is a lot of plant mass in there!! i'd think a good trim would help resolve the algae issues, its painful to do with ferns and slower growing plants like the aponogeton but i find it necessary to maintain healthy, algae free growth and it will grow back surprisingly quickly.
Be sure to let us know what you do and if it helps.
laters
Iain

 

[killi69]

Love your tank. Looks lush and healthy. A great journal to date.

Thank you WetElbow🙂.

Theoretically, this is not really a good idea. You should always know if you need to add more nutrients. It's not a good idea to either add more or to add less without knowing why. The "Why" of adding more nutrients can only be related to a nutrient deficiency. If you are not observing nutrient deficiencies then you should not add more nutrients for the following reason: Having a CO2 related issue happens to be one of those case where you should avoid adding more nutrients willy-nilly. The theoretical reason is that adding more Nitrogen to the system increases the plants demand for carbohydrates. Carbohydrates are required in order to use the Nitrogen. Therefore, Nitrogen uptake is "coupled" to CO2 uptake, i.e. adding more N causes an increased demand for C, and adding more C causes an extra demand for N. Since you are already exhibiting a carbohydrate shortfall it would not be wise to increase the demand for carbohydrates. If you were suffering a Nitrogen shortfall at the same time that you were experiencing a carbon shortfall, then that would be OK, because you'd need to solve the N issue in any case. But since you have not reported suffering an N deficiency, in this case, adding more N will expose the plants' Carbon deficiency even more. If adding more gas is no longer an option, then you need to choose a different path. Liquid carbon supplementation would be good short term (due to cost), but lowering the CO2 demand by reducing light is an option. You might also wish to consider chopping back the ferns severely in order to allow better flow to the carpet plants. The same thing that's causing the hair algae is what's causing slow growth of the carpet - lack of CO2. Adding more flow to overcome the fern blockade, of course, is another option. Any combination of these will work. Cheers,

Looking lovely andre, great to see an insitu shot... easy to forget how big this tank is! There is a lot of plant mass in there!! i'd think a good trim would help resolve the algae issues, its painful to do with ferns and slower growing plants like the aponogeton but i find it necessary to maintain healthy, algae free growth and it will grow back surprisingly quickly. Be sure to let us know what you do and if it helps. laters Iain Iain

Thank you Ceg and Iain for your feedback, much appreciated .

Very useful to learn that 'adding more N causes increased demand for C'. I will reduce my fert regime back to normal. I already had reduced lighting and increased flow with a new filter, so will wait to see if this makes any difference. I do regularly cut back plants, mainly the Aponogetons at the back, see pic for example of fortnightly thinning of leaves;


If no real progress is made through above measures, I will probably sell my new 2076 and try something more powerful to improve flow and CO2 distribution before having to resort to severely reducing the mass of ferns.

 

[killi69]

I am going through a phase of being quite bored of aquascapes, not that I dont find them nice, just that I (and largely "we") have seen it all before. Still I do like seeing stuff like this. This a jungle tank created for particular types of fish; Killies. Not many keep them this way even if they keep them at all. This is interesting stuff. Thank you. Please keep taking photos. I love the anabantoids too.

Thank you Sanj. I would like to write something about the issues involved in keeping this choice of fish in a large planted tank.

As I mentioned at the beginning of my journal, killi fish are normally kept in really small little tanks, often bare set ups containing just with a mop for breeding, with no lighting and perhaps a small air sponge filter;

Typical example of killi set-up (source; mykillifishdiaries.blogspot.com)

Reasons why killis are usually kept separately in such small tanks;

• killi fish in general come from shallow and still or slow moving waters with many species living in waters that may dry out completely in the summer - they will exist and reproduce quite happily in small dark tanks.
• killi keepers are usually breeders who collect and maintain a number different species, often from specific locations, which they like to keep pure. It can often be hard to tell females apart and it is not uncommon for two species to produce infertile hybrid offspring if allowed to mix.
• small tanks make for easier maintenance (eg feeding of live foods, cleaning, water changes with rain/RO water) and can facilitate breeding by keeping male and female close together (with mop or peat for egg collection).
• there can be quite a bit of rivalry and aggression between males of same species and/or between different species. Sparring between males is common – males showing off each other can be spectacular to watch. Killifish can be quite boisterous and rivalry between different species can lead to shyer fish wasting away in a tank that is too busy.

These two individual males of Fundulopanchax spoorenberghi (front) and F. sjoestedti (back) spend most of the day in my tank fighting over position underneath this particular overhang of plants. The spoorenburghi male is usually the aggressor but also the one to admit defeat with a few scratches, but always returns for more punishment lol.

A big tank like mine with its relatively powerful flow, hard tap water, bright light, mix of different killi species from same genus/groups does differ from the norm and is a bit of an experiment, for me anyway. However, such a tank can still provide for a community of killi species;

• the dense planting and large size of tank provide plenty of opportunities for fish to retreat and come out when comfortable.
• while some killis do require specific water parameters (eg soft /acidic water) to for breeding and egg hatching, many can be kept in the hard London tapwater for general maintenance purposes.
• careful choice of fish can allow for females of different species to be recognised by small characteristics such as pattern differentiation on their bodies or fins, and therefore be kept together. If I wanted to breed any particular fish, I could catch a pair and place in breading tank with specific water requirements for breeding. There is a risk however, that hybrid off spring emerge naturally within the community tank, which could interfere with future breeding programmes.
• while too much flow might be an issue for some species, I think that the volume of water moving through so called ‘slow moving’ waters in the wild would still represent a far greater flow than that in any of our tanks and that therefore many fish from these waters should be fine in tanks with powerful filtration.

Nevertheless, flow, light, hard water and community nature of my tank would probably exclude the more sensitive species of killis. My tank focuses on fish from the Cameroon region and I have chosen some of the hardier species from two groups of killifish for my experiment - the Fundulopanchax and Chromaphysemion groups. I have chosen them on the basis that although the Fundulopanchax species can be quite assertive/aggressive, they should have no problem in standing up to each other. On the whole, most of the rivalry is between males from the same species and there is relatively little conflict between fish from different genus.

Through the Midland Charity Auction earlier in December, I was able to buy some more Fundulopanchax spoorenberghi and Chromaphysemion bivittatum 'Funge C1 98'.


So far I have;
Fundulopanchax spoorenberghi (top left) – 3 pairs
Chromaphyosemion bivittatum 'Funge C1 98' (bottom right) - three pairs


Fundulopanchax gardneri ‘makurdi’ – 6 pairs


Chromaphyosemion splendopleure 'Tiko Big Ikanga Camp'- at least four adult pairs, with plenty of juveniles born in tank approaching adulthood


Fundulopanchax sjoestedti ‘dwarf variety’ – 2 pairs


Microctenopoma ansorgii (male at front, female behind, I think)

I really like the M. ansorgiis and have been able to source five more more through a LFS, making seven in total now.


According to many texts, they are not suitable for a community tank, especially not those with boisterous fish, and should only be mixed with smaller and peaceful dither fish as they are quite shy and slow moving and can easily be outmaneuvered at feeding time.

So, keeping the ansorgiis with Fundulopanchax killis could be a challenge as these killis are hardly gentle nor peaceful. In the beginning, the ansorgiis were indeed very shy and I hardly saw them. When food was added to the tank, the killis would finish the food in seconds. By contrast, an ansorgii would take a second or two just to spot the food, slowly glide towards it and most often, the food item was snatched away by another fish well before the ansorgii got a chance.

The interesting thing about the ansorgiis is that although they are a bit shy and slow moving (they 'glide' through the water), they are predator fish and are somehow able to command some respect from the killis and warn them off by displaying their fins if a killi approaches them with menace.

I have read that in the wild, they live in areas with very dense vegetation and are active mainly at dusk and dawn. The dimmer LED lights in my tank really help put them at ease. They are often hiding when the main lights are on but are usually up and about in the morning and evening in the LED lit tank. I have created a few overhangs in the tank, with branches covered with ferns above and planted with anubias nana underneath. These are the places the ansorgiis find most comfortable.

I have established a feeding method (mornings and evenings) where I create a feeding frenzy in the middle of the tank for all the killis and while I maintain the frenzy, I use a turkey baster to squirt live or frozen food underneath/ in between the vegetation of the overhang to make sure the ansorgiis get their fair share.

They are fantastic fish to watch and I love it when they come venturing out of the vegetation, like lions coming out of the bush. They can change their coloration in seconds, from pale brown to very dark brown, almost black, to vertical bands of bright orange. Males spar with each other in a similar way to the killis, displaying their stretched fins, showing off white edges around their fins, which stand out vividly.


Sorry if I have been ranting on a bit, but I wanted to share something about my fish as well. Hope you find it of interest.