GH+KH RO Reminiralzation Product Help.

[Zeus.]

Thanks Darrel - so how how much Calcium Nitrate would I need to give the same dGH increase as 6.0g of Calcium Sulphate? And what ppm of Nitrate would that add?

Likewise for Calcium Chloride?

Tank size and dose amount and Dose volume please

would I be able to use the current version of your calculator to work all the above out?

Thinks so but v1.8 is so different than V1.9 just the level off the checking. Its close to release- but happy to run your details thought it 😉

 

[Wookii]

Tank size and dose amount and Dose volume please



Thinks so but v1.8 is so different than V1.9 just the level off the checking. Its close to release- but happy to run your details thought it 😉

The tank is 1500 x 450 x 450 so a sniff over 300 litres, though it will have a sump housing approx 35 litres also.

Water changes will be 75 litres daily. Standard EI dosing targets.

If we assume a mixture of Calcium Nitrate and Calcium Chloride in an optimum proportion to replace the Calcium Sulphate?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

If we assume a mixture of Calcium Nitrate and Calcium Chloride in an optimum proportion to replace the Calcium Sulphate?

In terms of the Ca++ ions it doesn't make any difference which compound they came from, once they are in solution they are all the same. The advantage of calcium nitrate would be that it would give you a useful anion.

I think calcium chloride is going to be a lot easier to obtain than calcium nitrate.

You can buy a kilo of food grade calcium chloride for ~£5.

cheers Darrel

 

[Zeus.]

I've just realised that when we add 'TNC GH Boost' or 'Seachems Equilibrium' we dose it for the water added and NOT the Tank volume. Unless we are Filling the tank for the first time.

So I can use the calculator for a full tank and just the WC, but which one do you wish to clone 'TNC GH Boost' or 'Seachems Equilibrium'

I also need to rethink/remove/adjust coding for 'TNC GH Boost' and 'Seachems Equilibrium' as at present it isn't 'fit for purpose' IMO

 

[Wookii]

Hi all, In terms of the Ca++ ions it doesn't make any difference which compound they came from, once they are in solution they are all the same. The advantage of calcium nitrate would be that it would give you a useful anion.

I think calcium chloride is going to be a lot easier to obtain than calcium nitrate.

You can buy a kilo of food grade calcium chloride for ~£5.

cheers Darrel

That’s what I was thinking, that the nitrate would be useful, but didn’t want to add too much. If I’ve understood your calculations correctly, if I directly substituted the 6.0g of Calcium Sulphate I’d need 8.22g of Calcium Nitrate Which would add 4.32g of NO3, which in 75 litres is 4.32g/75litre x 1000 = 58mg/l which is too far above the EI target of 20-30ppm.

Given that I assume the Calcium Chloride is the better option, as you point out above. I’m just concerned about excessive build up of Chloride but you are suggesting that’s not a problem?

 

[Wookii]

I've just realised that when we add 'TNC GH Boost' or 'Seachems Equilibrium' we dose it for the water added and NOT the Tank volume. Unless we are Filling the tank for the first time.

So I can use the calculator for a full tank and just the WC, but which one do you wish to clone 'TNC GH Boost' or 'Seachems Equilibrium'

I also need to rethink/remove/adjust coding for 'TNC GH Boost' and 'Seachems Equilibrium' as at present it isn't 'fit for purpose' IMO

I wasn’t particularly looking to clone either, just use the James Planted Tank DIY mix, but substituting the low solubility Calcium Sulphate with Calcium Chloride/Nitrate:

http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/RO.htm

Yep, at this point I’m only looking at the daily 75 litre water change - I can just multiply everything by 4 for a full tank fill, and could just do that with dry salts as it’s a one off.

I also obviously want to use the lowest possible daily dosing volume so I can get the maximum number of doses from a 30-60 litre container of premixed salt solution. For that reason Sodium Chloride appears to be the prime candidate given its very high solubility.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I also obviously want to use the lowest possible daily dosing volume so I can get the maximum number of doses from a 30-60 litre container of premixed salt solution. For that reason Sodium Chloride appears to be the prime candidate given its very high solubility.

Sodium chloride (NaCl) doesn't give you any dGH (multivalent cations) or dKH (HCO3-) ions, did you mean calcium chloride?

NaCl is in a lot of the re-mineralising mixes, with some blurb about "osmotic balance", but it is really just there as the cheapest possible filler.

cheers Darrel

 

[Wookii]

Hi all, Sodium chloride (NaCl) doesn't give you any dGH (multivalent cations) or dKH (HCO3-) ions, did you mean calcium chloride?

NaCl is in a lot of the re-mineralising mixes, with some blurb about "osmotic balance", but it is really just there as the cheapest possible filler.

cheers Darrel

Sodium was a typo Darrel, I meant Calcium Chloride - I told you my chemistry expertise fitted on a postage stamp!!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Sodium was a typo Darrel, I meant Calcium Chloride - I told you my chemistry expertise fitted on a postage stamp!!

I thought you probably did, but I just thought I'd check.

If you are going to dose EI, I would only add a smaller amount of calcium and you are dosing magnesium anyway (as part of the EI). Plants don't have a huge calcium requirement, so if you are changing water regularly then you will constantly replenish it with your water change.

If I didn't have access to hard tap water supply I would go down the <"Oyster Shell Chick Grit"> route.

With the aid of my Fert calculator, I worked out how much uptake of CaCO3 there would be with its salt solubility saturation of 0.015 grams per litre at room temp.

which for my 484 litre tank would be a weekly dose of 7.26grams of CaCO3


So 'if' my maths is correct adding some CaCO3 in excess to any tank should yield the same results of ≈ 0.85°dKH and ≈ 0.81°dGH and if the CaCO3 is in excess it should maintain those minimum values

cheers Darrel

 

[Wookii]

Hi all,I thought you probably did, but I just thought I'd check.

If you are going to dose EI, I would only add a smaller amount of calcium and you are dosing magnesium anyway (as part of the EI). Plants don't have a huge calcium requirement, so if you are changing water regularly then you will constantly replenish it with your water changes.

cheers Darrel

My main issue is maintaining sufficient calcium for the shrimp - to prevent any moulting issues, whilst also keeping the water soft enough for my Rasbora (for which I think my tap water is proving to hard at 13dGH - I’ve experienced quite a few losses). The ideal middle ground seems to be about 6dGh.

Within that I’d like to maintain the oft quoted 3:1 Ca:Mg ratio.

If it weren’t for the shrimp, then I’d do exactly as you suggest, and target 3dGH.

You are right though, I probably ought to Factor in the effect of the EI dosing on the GH.

 

[Wookii]

Hi all, I do.You could. All chloride and nitrate salts are soluble, but you may still have problems with the Ca++ ions interacting with the SO4-- (& HCO3-) ions in solution, and <"precipitating out">.

Darrel, this point you make on precipitation - would this be permanent, or would regularly remixing with, say, an airstone, get the precipitation back into solution?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

this point you make on precipitation - would this be permanent

It would be difficult to re-solubilise a lot of the ions, it would depend upon the <"solubility rules">. In the case of carbonates, you could get the cation back into solution by acidifying the solution, the "excess" inorganic carbon would be converted to CO2, and once that buffer had been lost the metals would go back into solution.

Heating and adding acid is your best bet, but for some compounds <"nothing will really help">, it is back to the <"iron oxide"> issue, or @X3NiTH's post in <"DIY fertiliser...."> .

cheers Darrel

 

[Wookii]

Hi all, It would be difficult to re-solubilise a lot of the ions, it would depend upon the <"solubility rules">. In the case of carbonates, you could get the cation back into solution by acidifying the solution, the "excess" inorganic carbon would be converted to CO2, and once that buffer had been lost the metals would go back into solution.

Heating and adding acid is your best bet, but for some compounds <"nothing will really help">, it is back to the <"iron oxide"> issue, or @X3NiTH's post in <"DIY fertiliser...."> .

cheers Darrel

Thanks Darrel - so in there a way of prevent the precipitation in the first place? Presumably by adding an acid? I didn't realise commercially available solutions were so acidic - but what type of acid and in what sort of quantities would I need to look for in a DIY mix?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

so in there a way of prevent the precipitation in the first place? Presumably by adding an acid?

Yes, by acidification. <"Commercially nurseries"> use <"nitric acid (HNO3) injection">, but I would <"keep away from strong acids"> and citric acid (C6H8O7) would be my weapon of choice.

cheers Darrel

 

[Wookii]

Hi all, Yes, by acidification. <"Commercially nurseries"> use <"nitric acid (HNO3) injection">, but I would <"keep away from strong acids"> and citric acid (C6H8O7) would be my weapon of choice.

cheers Darrel

Thanks Darrel, I have plenty of Citric Acid so that's a good option. (I also have ascorbic acid too?). So should I be targeting a Ph of around 2-3? How much Citric acid per litre am I likely to require to achieve that?

Will this have any reaction with the Potassium Carbonate for the KH adjustment in the salt mix?

Also, I assume there are no negative effects of the Citric Acid when dosed into the aquarium?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I have plenty of Citric Acid so that's a good option. (I also have ascorbic acid too?).

Yes, ascorbic acid (C6H8O6) is fine. These are both <"weak acids">, so they are much safer to handle.

Will this have any reaction with the Potassium Carbonate for the KH adjustment in the salt mix?

Not with the potassium (K), but it will with the HCO3- ions, converting them to CO2, via the <"CO2 ~ HCO3- ~ pH equilibrium">. You would need to add the solution/salts to raise dGH/dKH separately.

So should I be targeting a Ph of around 2-3? How much Citric acid per litre am I likely to require to achieve that?

Somewhere around there, I wouldn't worry about trying to work out an exact amount. Because it is going to be almost infinitely diluted in the tank water it doesn't matter if the pH dips lower in the all-in-one mix.

cheers Darrel

 

[Wookii]

Hi all, Yes, ascorbic acid (C6H8O6) is fine. These are both <"weak acids">, so they are much safer to handle. Not with the potassium (K), but it will with the HCO3- ions, converting them to CO2, via the <"CO2 ~ HCO3- ~ pH equilibrium">. You would need to add the solution/salts to raise dGH/dKH separately. Somewhere around there, I wouldn't worry about trying to work out an exact amount. Because it is going to be almost infinitely diluted in the tank water it doesn't matter if the pH dips lower in the all-in-one mix.

cheers Darrel

Thanks Darrel. OK, a separate Kh solution of Potassium Bicarbonate and RO water should be okay as I should have a spare dosing pump given its a 4 pump unit. So I guess in practical terms I take some RO water, keep adding citric acid until I hit 2-3 Ph (just to work out a correct amount for future mixes) then add the other salts and mix, maybe double checking the Ph has been maintained. Job done?

The only things that is left that I'm unsure on is how much Calcium Chloride I should be adding to substitute the 6g of Calcium Sulphate in the James RO mix. I followed the link you gave me to the Salt Wiki, but I couldn't for the life of me glean the RAM values you mentioned in your previous post, for the hexahydrate version, to attempt to calculate the Ca percentage? 😵

 

[Zeus.]

Because it is going to be almost infinitely diluted in the tank water it doesn't matter if the pH dips lower in the all-in-one mix.

Plus (correct me if I am wrong) a at lower pH the PO4 is less likely to react with the micro chelates in the AIO

 

[X3NiTH]

That’s a Screenshot from the webqc.org, very handy calculator, takes a bit of getting used to though when translating formulas to make it calculate more complex compounds.

🙂

 

[X3NiTH]

Plus (correct me if I am wrong) a at lower pH the PO4 is less likely to react with the micro chelates in the AIO

Yes less likely but not impossible, any free unchelated Iron in the mix will be mopped up by the PO4, any conditions that degrade the chelate when it’s all in solution will result in increased precipitation.

I always found towards the end of use of a 500ml bottle of DIY AIO that there was always a milky brown precipitate, the things that could affect the mixture in the bottle are storage temperature, exposure to light and evaporation (as the liquid level in the bottle recedes due to dosing the surface area to volume increases, which is why I’ve moved to IV bags).

🙂