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Fishless planted tank

Nealeg

Member
Joined
21 Feb 2013
Messages
26
Location
Cheshire UK
As I'm new to this hobby doe's anyone know if I should be doing water changes to my 30L fishless planted tank and if so, how often should I be doing them. I understand that I would need to do them at say! 25% per week if they were inhabited with livestock.
 
I agree with tim. Plants produce metabolic waste just like fish, even more so when you are using co2 and EI dosing. These wastes can contribute to algae problems. So a weekly water change of at least 30% would be sensible.
 
Something that I forgot to mention:- my fully planted aquarium is in it's 3rd week of fishless cycling. It's at a stage whereby the amonia readings are < 0.25 and reducing and the nitrite level is 5. So not fully cycled enough to introduce any fish. Would you still recommend 25% 30% water change or should I wait till it has fully cycled and then do a 90% change before introducing any fish?
 
I think it is pointless doing a water change if you are cycling the tank, whether plants or no plants. Ammonia and nitrIte are plant food too. Some reckon light and ammonia will cause algae, but if you don't go overboard with the lights, there shouldn't be much more than brown diatoms. I cycled 2 tanks with plants and adding ammonia at the same time and I had no problems besides a bit of diatoms which disappeared pretty fast.
 
Patience is a virtue as they say and my fish-less cycle has finally finished. All the plants have been doing well and are still healthy completing a 50% water change 4 days ago as recommended by the guys at "The Green Machine. Next up, it's the shrimp, so this weekend I will be on the hunt for some CRS and Black Bumble Bee's hopefully the LFShops will have stocked up especially for the bank holiday weekend.
 
I think it is pointless doing a water change if you are cycling the tank, whether plants or no plants.
It's not pointless. The point is exactly as stated above. Metabolic wastes in the tank restrict the ability of the plants to absorb nutrients and gases. This reduces their efficiency, improves oxygen availability and reduces the likelihood of of algal blooms.

Cheers,
 
It's not pointless. The point is exactly as stated above. Metabolic wastes in the tank restrict the ability of the plants to absorb nutrients and gases. This reduces their efficiency, improves oxygen availability and reduces the likelihood of of algal blooms.

Cheers,

I speak from experience. 0 water changes during fishless cycling with plants did not induce algae. Cycles finished in 3-4 weeks.
Can you please specify what metabolic wastes are you referring to? And why would there be lack of oxygen?
 
Hello,
Yes, I have no doubt regarding your experience, and many people have similar experiences. Again, I did not say that one is guaranteed to have problems. What I said was that the probability of having issues is increased by not doing water changes. There are many things that contribute to success or failure and so not doing certain things can be counteracted by doing other things, and so forth. It's the combination of things that we do, not just any one thing. For people who DON'T have the experience, it is a better option to do all the things that contributes to success and to avoid doing all the things that contribute to failure.

Aquatic plants have a very thin cuticle. Aquatic leaves interface with the water column and with the rest of their environment by contact with roots and leaves. Many people assume that the direction of traffic is one way, that nutrients and CO2 only flow into the plant. This assumption is incorrect. When plants metabolize carbohydrates built from CO2 and nutrients, like us, their cells produce waste products, such as CO2 and carbohydrate residues. These waste products are dangerous and the plant expels them constantly in exactly the same way that we do. Plants also have a symbiotic relationship with certain microorganisms surrounding them. These germs require carbohydrates, and so some of the products that the plants expel are actually the same sugars that they produce as a result of photosynthesis.

Aquatic plants fed with CO2 enrichment therefore leach massive quantities of detritus out into the environment. This can be seen by shaking the plants and observing the cloud of "dust". Also, it can be seen by the level of dirt in the filter. These are all organic waste products. The detritus that coats the leaves acts to block nutrient and CO2 absorption. So plants can become suffocated by the level of waste. Does this always happen? No, because there are other factors, such as the lighting, the nutrient and CO2 levels, the flow and distribution and so forth.

Since these waste products are organic, they rot. When they rot, the production of ammonia results. The plants can reabsorb and recycle the ammonia, however, the microorganisms will oxidize the ammonia as we know from the Nitrogen cycle. The Nitrogen cycle requires Oxygen in order to oxidize these products, so that Oxygen is pulled from the water column. Again, is this always detrimental?, No, but in general, when new plants grown in emmersed conditions are flooded, the leaves are not efficient to begin with because they have been grown in air. The waxy cuticle is thicker and it is more difficult for these leaves to produce food and to make use of the light, CO2 and nutrients. So this is why, in many tank startup, failure occurs, because the hobbyists stacks the odds in favor of failure. They present too many obstacles for the plant to survive by adding too much light, by allowing the buildup of organic waste, by poor CO2 and poor flow distribution.

So we need to "peel the onion", so to speak, by undoing or removing as many obstacles as possible to allow the plant to breathe, to make food and to transition new leaves to a submersed environment. This increases the probability of success and minimizes the loss of tissue that we see so often.

Cheers,
 
Well lets get back to my thread!

As you recall my 28/30L tank had finished cycling and I was about to introduce a few shrimp, to see how things went as I was satisfied with water condition readings.
Ammonia zero - nitrite zero - nitrate 5 - pH 7.2 - copper zero - Gh 10dGH - KH 2.2dKH - temp 26c/78.8f. I changed 50% of the water and checked the reading the following day the levels were still well within the parameters. So it was livestock time.

I then had second thoughts about the shrimp, thinking that there may not be enough algae in the tank at this early stage to support them. So I decided to wait a while before adding the shrimp and instead I introduced 3 "Norman's Lampeye" to see how they adapted to the conditions.

After introducing the fish I checked the water daily, the readings were fine but on day three I noticed that 2 of the fish were sitting at the top of the water and I presumed that this could be due to a lack of oxygen. As this is a fully planted tank I had been adding the daily "prescribed" dosage of Easycarb from day one of setting the tank up and thought that maybe this had deprived the water of oxygen. All the other levels were good so I decided to install an air-pump to give the oxygen a boost. I set the pump up and after about a hour of it running the fish perked up. Problem solved or so I though! I ran the pump for a total of three hours before turning it off for the night.

The next morning (today) I checked the water readings to find the following readings:- ammonia > 0.25 - nitrite 5 - nitrate > 40 so I immediately changed about 35%- 10L of water. Just checked the water again 3hrs after the part change and the readings are:- ammonia < 0.25 - nitrite 2 - nitrate 20.

My conclusion (correct if you think otherwise) is that the air-pump has released a huge spike of ammonia from the substrate. I'm using JBL Aquabasis plus (long term nutrient substrate) topped with JBL Manado Natural substrate.

Help!
 
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