First time fish tank - comments/suggestions?

[NorthCoast]

A few weeks ago I was looking at a friends 75 gallon planted tank and then went down a rabbit hole on YouTube/these forums and it has really sparked an interest.

Anyways, this is my first time setting up a fish tank/trying aquascaping.

The tank is an ADA 45p (45x27x30). Initially I was going to go for a 20-30 gallon but the wife isn’t as excited as I am so I settled on this 10 gallon betts tank for my daughter.

The hardscapenisnt exactly what I had initially planned, and I was going to go for something in a little more random/natural but as I played around with the materials I had this just kind of worked. The plan is to heavily plant it, and hopefully lean into the triangle composition, with mostly a variety of green plants with red in the top right (some red background plants)

The bottom right with the sand and white rocks will be filled in properly after planting, just trying to minimize the mess. Currently sitting full of water and filter running with APT start. Doing a 3-4 week dark start, followed by loading plants and then introducing snails and shrimp a week or two later. Following that maybe 8 ember tetras, and then a few weeks later introduce a young betta. My thought is establishing the other fish, and maybe using a breeder box for the beta within the top corner may allow the betta to adjust without murdering the rest of the stock.

Anyways, as I said I’m brand new to this so any comments or ideas are appreciated.

 

[G mac]

Love your choice of wood. Looks great.

Not sure of the wisdom of API start, without something to start the cycle. Some use ammonia, I favour plants.

 

[hypnogogia]

Some use ammonia, I favour plants.

Plants and time...

 

[NorthCoast]

Love your choice of wood. Looks great.

Not sure of the wisdom of API start, without something to start the cycle. Some use ammonia, I favour plants.

Thanks!

I should have mentioned 2 weeks ago I had no interest or knowledge about fish but something about the plants/fish/snail/shrimp eco system type tanks really interests me. So no suprise of there is a lack of wisdom haha

I did use APT Start, which if I understand correctly (I probably don’t) should have some bacterial starter and is intended for dark starts in particular. That being said I’m sure it may be a bunch of marketing and pixie dust.

My understanding was that the tank should probably be cycled after 3-4 weeks

2Hr Aquarist APT Start

Substrate Enrichment + Starter Bacteria. All-in-one booster for new tanks. Enhances substrate richness and accelerates readiness for planting and livestock introduction. 1 Pouch (45g) per 60x30cm / 24"x12" area. Why APT START provides the essential all-in-one upgrade for every new tank-...

www.2hraquarist.com

That being said, would using an API quick start not get the cycle going?


Cheers!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Welcome to UKAPS,

Not sure of the wisdom of API start, without something to start the cycle.

APT Start? I think it includes ammonia as well as "nitrifying bacteria" <"https://www.amazon.co.uk/2HR-Aquarist-Aquarium-substrate-enrichment/dp/B0BTD3CF1S">. If it is "API Start" <"https://apifishcare.com/product/quick-start">, it says "suitable for saltwater and freshwater aquariums" which would worry me.

It won't do any harm, but it wouldn't do any good either.

I favour plants.

Plants and time...

Honestly that is the answer, you don't need to buy anything or add anything, just plant the tank up and once the plants are in active growth, after 6 weeks or so, <"your tank is fish safe"> and "cycled".

At UKAPS we've talked to some of the leading scientists working on the microbes that perform nitrification in aquarium filters (including <"some Canadian ones">) and their research has shown that things are <"very different from the traditional view of cycling">.

Have a look at <"Correspondence with Dr Ryan Newton - School of Freshwater Sciences, University of Wisconsin—Milwaukee">, this is what Dr Newton said

It is a good question to ask where the initial inoculum of nitrifiers comes from & it is a question that I do not have a definitive answer. Nitrifiers are present in many environments because they can live with comparably low external nutrients (carbon particularly). There are a couple of good possibilities, 1) the water - most municipal water systems contain some number of nitrifiers, which then come out of your residence tap; 2) the plants - nitrifiers are also commonly associated with plants. Or, it could be they drift in from the air - seems less likely, but it is not impossible.

If you do need to add nitrifiers the best source is from an aquaponics or aquaculture system that is already running and removing ammonia. Some water or sediment/soil or part of the biobilter (if there is one) is an excellent starter. Without this source as an inoculum then you could add some roots from plants from any other tank that is running - these are likely to have nitrifiers associated with them. A small clipping put into the tank would be enough.

In some lab tests we found that adding previous material from a running biofilter could reduce ammonia oxidation start-up time from 2-3 weeks to 2-3 days. We also tested a commercial product of nitrifiers & it did decrease the time to ammonia oxidation start-up. It was slower than our biofilter material transfer, but much quicker than doing nothing. However, the microbes present in the system from the commercial product disappeared over a few weeks and were replaced by those more common to our system. So, it seems some products could help “jump-start” the process, but it will be a lot less predictable and ultimately may not determine what microbe succeed in the long run.

cheers Darrel

 

[NorthCoast]

Thanks!

I should have mentioned 2 weeks ago I had no interest or knowledge about fish but something about the plants/fish/snail/shrimp eco system type tanks really interests me. So no suprise of there is a lack of wisdom haha

I did use APT Start, which if I understand correctly (I probably don’t) should have some bacterial starter and is intended for dark starts in particular. That being said I’m sure it may be a bunch of marketing and pixie dust.

My understanding was that the tank should probably be cycled after 3-4 weeks

2Hr Aquarist APT Start

Substrate Enrichment + Starter Bacteria. All-in-one booster for new tanks. Enhances substrate richness and accelerates readiness for planting and livestock introduction. 1 Pouch (45g) per 60x30cm / 24"x12" area. Why APT START provides the essential all-in-one upgrade for every new tank-...

www.2hraquarist.com

That being said, would using an API quick start not get the cycle going?


Cheers!

Also, if relevant I’m using tropica aqua soil which I understand has a fairly high release of ammonia in the first weeks? Part of the reason I was going with dark start was to hopefully give the tissue culture plants I will use a better shot of survival. I will be planting all easy plants with no co2 added to the tank. The plants will have a couple weeks to start growing before I add the shrimp/snails as well.

Obviously this is based on the patchwork of information I have gathered and I’m sure is not overly scientific

 

[NorthCoast]

Hi all,
Welcome to UKAPS,

APT Start? I think it includes ammonia as well as "nitrifying bacteria" <"https://www.amazon.co.uk/2HR-Aquarist-Aquarium-substrate-enrichment/dp/B0BTD3CF1S">. If it is "API Start" <"https://apifishcare.com/product/quick-start">, it says "suitable for saltwater and freshwater aquariums" which would worry me.

It won't do any harm, but it wouldn't do any good either.


Honestly that is the answer, you don't need to buy anything or add anything, just plant the tank up and once the plants are in active growth, after 6 weeks or so, <"your tank is fish safe"> and "cycled".

At UKAPS we've talked to some of the leading scientists working on the microbes that perform nitrification in aquarium filters (including <"some Canadian ones">) and their research has shown that things are <"very different from the traditional view of cycling">.

Have a look at <"Correspondence with Dr Ryan Newton - School of Freshwater Sciences, University of Wisconsin—Milwaukee">, this is what Dr Newton said


cheers Darrel

Thanks for the info, your posts and referenced materials have been extremely useful.

And yes I used APT start, but I did initially order API quick start which I have returned. (The names are a little confusing).

I also could have mentioned I don’t really have access to any used filter media etc hence why I went for the APT product.

What I have found is that there is a lot of opinions/info/methods available and it’s easy to get them mixed up. This forum is extremely helpful

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

What I have found is that there is a lot of opinions/info/methods available and it’s easy to get them mixed up.

That is the problem, there is now so much information (<"most of it wrong">) that it is really difficult to sort out the <"coffee from the froth">.

I also could have mentioned I don’t really have access to any used filter media etc hence why I went for the APT product.

It won't have done any harm and if you haven't got access to filter material, or are going to keep <"a tank without plants"> it is a viable option.

The advantage of <"plant and wait"> is that you don't have to be able to measure anything or buy any products (other than the plants), all you have to do is watch the plants and then "grown in = fish safe".

It is a technique based on probability, and "plant and wait" and then "grown in = fish safe" has a <"high probability of success">, because you are just reliant on things you can see, rather than a magic number.

cheers Darrel

 

[sparkyweasel]

a bunch of marketing and pixie dust.

Welcome to the world of aquascaping. 🙂

 

[Andy Pierce]

I've never really understood the concept behind a dark start. Chuck in the plants, turn on the lights and go for it! Plants won't be hurt - the concern around a non-mature tank is for the health of livestock.

 

[AlecF]

Start with plants. Add time. Change the water. Add a little more time. Change the water. Add fish. In my experience API products are not that good, but it'll do no harm.

 

[Miniandy]

I've never really understood the concept behind a dark start. Chuck in the plants, turn on the lights and go for it! Plants won't be hurt - the concern around a non-mature tank is for the health of livestock.

I think it came from a combination of using aquasoil, which can leach ammonia, and use of tissue culture plants, which can melt after planting. I think the idea is that some folk believe that if the ammonia release is avoided, i.e. after a dark start, then the tissue culture plants won't melt. I think there is also a belief that it will help avoid algea on initial startup.

I did a sark start on my tank and used filter starter when I set it up 18 or so months ago, my tissue culture plants didn't melt. Can I say for certain that the dark start helped? No, and I'll try the other way next time I use AS.

 

[Bradders]

That is interesting. So it looks like I am going through a non-dark start (traditional?) method. In short, everything in (aqua soil, plants, hard scape, CO2 and lights on) and wait for a while.

It’s too early to understand the impact of that method (only day 17) but will report back if helpful.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I've never really understood the concept behind a dark start.

I think it came from a combination of using aquasoil, which can leach ammonia, and use of tissue culture plants, which can melt after planting. I think the idea is that some folk believe that if the ammonia release is avoided, i.e. after a dark start, then the tissue culture plants won't melt. I think there is also a belief that it will help avoid algea on initial startup.

<"I think it"> is for the reasons that @Miniandy suggests. I've never used an ammonia rich substrate, or added ammonia deliberately, so it isn't something I have practical experience of.

Chuck in the plants, turn on the lights and go for it! Plants won't be hurt - the concern around a non-mature tank is for the health of livestock.

You could definitely <"add a floating plant from the start">, it isn't <"carbon (C) limited">, it can only get algae on the roots and it will help deplete <"TAN (NH3 / NH4+)"> more quickly.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

It’s too early to understand the impact of that method (only day 17) but will report back if helpful.

I'd guess it doesn't matter too much where you start, or what the journey is, you can just wait until the plant mass is grown in and then you are <"cycled"> and <"fish safe">. Tank maturity is likely to take a bit longer, and I would look at <"maturity as a parameter that is continually changing">.

cheers Darrel

 

[NorthCoast]

I've never really understood the concept behind a dark start. Chuck in the plants, turn on the lights and go for it! Plants won't be hurt - the concern around a non-mature tank is for the health of livestock.

I think it came from a combination of using aquasoil, which can leach ammonia, and use of tissue culture plants, which can melt after planting. I think the idea is that some folk believe that if the ammonia release is avoided, i.e. after a dark start, then the tissue culture plants won't melt. I think there is also a belief that it will help avoid algea on initial startup.

I did a sark start on my tank and used filter starter when I set it up 18 or so months ago, my tissue culture plants didn't melt. Can I say for certain that the dark start helped? No, and I'll try the other way next time I use AS.

Yes my understanding the concept is when using some of the more nutrient rich aqua soils like ada Amazonia and Tropica there is a higher level of ammonia coming out of the soil and the manufacturers instructions require heavy water changes daily for a week, then every other day, and so on in order to manage this.

As Miniandy mentioned, people have reported sever melt/die off using TC with these uncapped aquasoils.

I figured I would try it as I don’t mind the wait time anyways (I have a new born and have spent a decent amount already starting from 0) I can get another paycheque in here while the tank matures a bit with the hardscape and substrate/filter media. (The APT start comes with a two part bacterial starter one below substrate and one in the initial water fill, I’m unsure of the exact mix or efficacy but it seemed like a decent start without access to any used media etc.)
As I will be ordering plants a lot will be tc and emersed/potted it seemed that starting that plants in more stable conditions without heavy water changes daily could increase my chance of success. I will essentially be planting and waiting as well before adding livestock my intent with the dry start was really for the plants.

Also, I can get the biofilm out of the drift wood and lower my chances at algae (allegedly)

A liquid test after about 36 hours read ammonia at 2.5 ppm, nitrite at 2-3 ppm and nitrate around 8-10 ppm (large gap on the chart but slightly lighter than the closest reading)

Anyways, I’m coming at this from a completely non-scientific understanding so I’m really having to figure it out and don’t mind a bit of extra time if it may help out in the long run (avoid initial large algae bloom, plant sensitive tv in more stable water conditions where i can then dose stable amounts of ferts as required) and obviously may be way off but the learning and experimenting will be fun.

Happy to report any progress as I go here. I suppose I will have to watch that the tank doesn’t cycle and then “crash”? Maybe adding a bit of fish food periodically would help or maybe better to just get a bit of ammonia if I get some 0-0-0 readings?

Cheers

 

[NorthCoast]

That is interesting. So it looks like I am going through a non-dark start (traditional?) method. In short, everything in (aqua soil, plants, hard scape, CO2 and lights on) and wait for a while.

It’s too early to understand the impact of that method (only day 17) but will report back if helpful.

How often are your water changes? I’m also running no co2. I do believe the co2 will help your plants survive early and mitigate the need for another method?

 

[Bradders]

How often are your water changes? I’m also running no co2. I do believe the co2 will help your plants survive early and mitigate the need for another method?

Sorry, I am running CO2. Water change was every day in the first week, and now down to 3 times a week. 50%.

 

[OllieTY]

You will definitely need to lower the water level for a betta, and the flow produced by that filter might be too much!

 

[NorthCoast]

You will definitely need to lower the water level for a betta, and the flow produced by that filter might be too much!

The betta won’t be going in for months and there is a lid. I think the filter should be fine it’s an oase biocompact 25 that can be turned down quite low and directed into the side of the tank but I will keep an eye on it.