First attempt at fishkeeping and aquascaping - 60L tropical aquarium

[itudela]

Hi there! Just got into fishkeeping and (an attempt to) aquatic landscaping after thinking for some time with the missus about getting an aquarium for the wee one (both of us are allergic to cats).

The wee one is only 2 years old, so we would like him to grow seeing how we take care of the aquarium (both livestock and plants) and eventually take over from us... if we let him!! Which I am already starting to think that it won't be happening...

Anyway, the person that told me about UKAPS is an active member here (and also works at a shop near Edinburgh, which is why I won't mention their name for the time being!). They suggested to create a journal so people may share some tricks or two... I guess that's what I'll do next?

So... A week ago we set an aquarium for the first time. The setup is a SuperFish Start 70 Tropical Kit we got from a well known shop in Edinburgh. We put speckled sand in the front area and the rest was covered with Fluval stratum to create some contrast. A big porous rock, a chunk of driftwood with a cave-like void and 8 pots of plant later (forgot to write down the species - will definitely not make it into the Featured Journals' section), and it was more or less ready to go.

Two days later, and it was looking reasonably well and settled, besides the bit of bacterial bloom you could see in the images. By the way, this week I have been using Microbe-Lift Plants Green and Bio CO2 fertilisers (that may be giving away the shop where I got the whole setup) as indicated in the instructions.


The following day I went to the shop, got some JBL strips and checked the aquarium water (right strip below): on the acidic, no alkalinity AT ALL, some wee hardness and some nitrate showing up a bit. I checked the tap water (left trip), and it's easy to see where the acidity and low alkalinity and hardness is coming from: water in Midlothian can be extremely soft! I also brought some water to the shop when I went to buy the strips, and the feedback was pretty much the same: for the species I had in mind (ember tetras and pigmy corys, as I would like to have one or two nice shoals of different species), this should be fine...


So today we went for the first livestock for the aquarium. As planned, we got 12 ember tetras, and while discussing with one of the chaps about some shrimp (we'll wait a few more weeks to have some algae) and pigmy corys (maybe the next weekend?), I thought about some snails for the dead plants; zebras seemed the best option to avoid loosing the plants, so we got 3 of them without much thinking... And without showing my water results to the chap I was talking to (my mistake, I did mention one of his colleagues tested my water a few days ago and the results were fine...). The tetras and snails are now in the tank, and whereas the tetras seem ok (other than causing a bit of another mild bloom?), I am starting to get concerned about the snails...

Trying to find more about the snails (had not done any research), I am starting to worry about their shells. pH is on the low side, alkalinity is non existent and hardness is really low. I am stopping the Bio CO2 to see if the pH starts to rise slowly (I hope the ammonia from the fish may also help on that while helping with the bacteria) - today I moved a couple of plants around and noticed the roots have grown quite a bit, so I don't think stoping the Bio CO2 fertiliser will cause a big issue. I will go to the shop tomorrow to have a chat and perhaps get some crushed coral...

Anyway, this is the first post of many? Few? We will see... Any suggestions are more than welcomed!

 

[Bradders]

Hello. What a great idea for a young person - getting them into this great hobby!

Could you post the actual numbers for your water (Amonnia, Nitrite, pH, KH and GH) as it's hard to accurately determine from the screenshot? Be good to see how much alkalinity you do have.

 

[jamiep]

Do stop using the Bio CO2 now. It is not CO2 booster, I don't know how they all get away with such marketing, but an glutaraldehyde, which can help with some algae.

Start doing regular, large water changes for a few weeks while your tank gets established. At least 50% every 2 days for a week, then 3-4 days, and so on. The livestock and the new substrate will be too much for an unestablished tank to deal with the ammonia and nitrate. Do not add more livestock next weekend. Also, yes, our water is very soft and has very little KH, which depletes as the ammonia/nitrite is converted to much less compounds. The water changes will replenish the KH. With such soft water, we really need to do large, regular water changes forever. (Nb for other readers too, assume the same as me, tap water is TDS 36, KH <1, GH 2-3.)

The plant looks like cryptocoryne wendtii green.

The soil will naturally over time migrate over the sand.

 

[jamiep]

keep using the other fertiliser, but you dont need a lot, not the full suggested dose - your plant mass is very low currently.

If you need to increase the water hardness, coral isnt the best option. One can buy powder to 'buffer' the water, increase the hardness. I can give you some. But first get over the first month establishing the tank and water changes.

 

[Bradders]

Agree with @jamiep . I think the tank is not matured yet (unless a previously mature filter or LOTS of hardscape from a mature tank was used), which was why I was interested in the actual readings.

1. Feed very, very lightly for the foreseeable future.
2. Increase your aeration to as much as possible to assist with faster maturing.
3. As Jamie says, do very regular water changes and use a kit to see where you are for Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate.

If you know someone very local, you can also get some foam/media to add into your current filter to help that get established.

 

[itudela]

Hi all, thanks for your reply and feedback! Yes, on hindsight I should not have added any snails at all, and perhaps hold adding the fish for another week (although the conditions for them seem fine, and I would prefer their natural ammonia instead of adding some additional supplements).

Here you have the tank water test results (after one week) using JBL strips:

NO3 = 10 ppm​

NO2 = 0 ppm​

GH = 4 - 7 degrees​

KH = 0 degrees​

pH = 6.4 (or lower?)​

Cl2 = 0 ppm​

And here you have the tap water results using the same JBL strips:

NO3 = 0 ppm​

NO2 = 0 ppm​

GH = <3 degrees​

KH = 0 degrees​

pH = 6.4 (or lower?)​

Cl2 = 0.8 ppm​

With this type of tap water (which is more common than not in Scotland), I am afraid that water changes are not going to be much of an option for the foreseeable feature; the tap water will continue to be acidic and incredibly soft (only a bit of chlorine and nothing else), which will not help if I want to slightly increase the pH and the KH. This water shouldn't be that bad for the Ember tetras, but not the greatest at all for snails or shrimp. I used the water conditioning that came with the aquarium kit, but other than chlorine (and again, a very tiny bit), the tap water could almost be used straightaway based on its parameters (I am sort of joking now...).

As I wasn't sure with the strips, I also got a Master Test Kit for freshwater aquariums from AquaCare. The tank water results (not exactly the same parameters as with the strips) are the following:

NO3 = 2.5 ppm (or lower, just a shadow of pink in the water over the whitest background)​

NO2 = 0 ppm​

NH3 = 0 ppm​

KH = 0 degrees (one tiny drop and the liquid was already yellow)​

pH = 6.0 - 6.5 (or lower?)​

PO4 = 0 ppm​

The tank water results with the Master Test Kit pretty much agree with the strips in relation to NO3, NO2, KH and pH; I did not have time to analyse the tap water with it, but I suspect I will find the same agreement. I will use both from now on as they complement each other and provides me with two sources for some of the more critical parameters (not thinking to get all the Hanna stuff from my place of work until I have been doing this for more than a year...).

With these parameters, and in order not to make any dramatic changes in them, I will go ahead with cutting the CO2 fertiliser and only use the regular one (but reducing the dose), and perhaps add some maintenance bacteria every odd week if the NO3, NO2 and NH3 look a bit strange. I also got a calcium carbonate rock that I plan to break into small chunks that I may add every once in a while to bring the pH and alkalinity (mostly Ca2+?) slightly up and keep the snails and future shrimp happy, but nothing too much.

But yeah, when you are blessed with tap water that is almost as RO quality, I guess you also have some problems!

PS. I should use thumbnails the next time...

 

[itudela]

This is the calcium carbonate rock I got. It is actually a pity I will break it into small bits to add one or two into the tank, but those snails need calcium...

PS. Even the thumbnail is massive... better from the mobile phone than a laptop!

 

[itudela]

keep using the other fertiliser, but you dont need a lot, not the full suggested dose - your plant mass is very low currently.

If you need to increase the water hardness, coral isnt the best option. One can buy powder to 'buffer' the water, increase the hardness. I can give you some. But first get over the first month establishing the tank and water changes.

@jamiep just realised you are based in Edinburgh. How's your tap water? I am based in Gorebridge and it is ridiculously soft.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Welcome to UKAPS.

and perhaps hold adding the fish for another week (although the conditions for them seem fine, and I would prefer their natural ammonia instead of adding some additional supplements).

Honestly just ignore everything anybody else (away from this forum) tells you about ammonia, cycling and water testing. It is all wrong and we have actually <"talked to scientists"> involved in work on nitrification.

It was this research on nitrification that led us to contact <"Dr Hovanec">, and the <"Newton"> and <"Neufeld"> labs.

The easiest option would be to get some filter material or plants from an established system, I know we have a few <"Edinburgh based members">. If you don't have access to an established tank, you can just plant the tank and let the plants grow in, but you need a reasonable plant mass. I'm obsessed with floating plants <"What is the “Duckweed Index” all about?">, but <"Using stem plants as a filtering aid at Start Up!"> would also do.

In terms of a "bacterial starter culture" this is what Dr Ryan Newton said:

..... Nitrifiers are present in many environments because they can live with comparably low external nutrients (carbon particularly). There are a couple of good possibilities, 1) the water - most municipal water systems contain some number of nitrifiers, which then come out of your residence tap; 2) the plants - nitrifiers are also commonly associated with plants. Or, it could be they drift in from the air - seems less likely, but it is not impossible.

If you do need to add nitrifiers the best source is from an aquaponics or aquaculture system that is already running and removing ammonia. Some water or sediment/soil or part of the biobilter (if there is one) is an excellent starter. Without this source as an inoculum then you could add some roots from plants from any other tank that is running - these are likely to have nitrifiers associated with them. A small clipping put into the tank would be enough.

In some lab tests we found that adding previous material from a running biofilter could reduce ammonia oxidation start-up time from 2-3 weeks to 2-3 days. We also tested a commercial product of nitrifiers & it did decrease the time to ammonia oxidation start-up. It was slower than our biofilter material transfer, but much quicker than doing nothing .........

zebras seemed the best option to avoid loosing the plants, so we got 3 of them without much thinking.

You need to take them out, unfortunately they are doomed in your soft water.

Basically all the <"fancy snails"> are hard water species, and it is only <"Red Ramshorn"> (Planorbella duryi), <"Tadpole Snail"> (Physella acuta) and possibly Malaysian Trumpet Snail (Melanoides tuberculata) that will survive in your water. They are often referred to as "pest snails <"Trumpet snails for unplanted sand?">", but none of them eat living plants.

The shop really shouldn't have sold you the livestock, like @Bradders and @jamiep say your tank isn't anywhere near ready for fish. Follow @Bradders advice.

1. Feed very, very lightly for the foreseeable future.
2. Increase your aeration to as much as possible to assist with faster maturing.
3. As Jamie says, do very regular water changes and use a kit to see where you are for Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate.

and have a look at <"LFS opinion on cycling & bacteria">

cheers Darrel

 

[itudela]

Thanks @dw1305 for the feedback!

The easiest option would be to get some filter material or plants from an established system, I know we have a few <"Edinburgh based members">. If you don't have access to an established tank, you can just plant the tank and let the plants grow in, but you need a reasonable plant mass. I'm obsessed with floating plants <"What is the “Duckweed Index” all about?">, but <"Using stem plants as a filtering aid at Start Up!"> would also do.

I was actually thinking about floating plants to provide more shadowed area (some of the plants I currently have apparently do not need that much light). I have not seen much in my local shop, so I was going to try online (Dennerle or Aguarium Gardens?). Should 2 pots be enough? Perhaps 3?

In terms of a "bacterial starter culture" this is what Dr Ryan Newton said:

Unfortunately, unless I am getting water from the shop, I don't know anybody (yet) in this field. @jamiep, you may not be too far... any 'dirty' water or filter media I could borrow?

The shop really shouldn't have sold you the livestock, like @Bradders and @jamiep say your tank isn't anywhere near ready for fish. Follow @Bradders advice.

I want to cut them some slack, as they were not that keen on selling livestock from day 1. I spoke to different staff each time, and each one of them may have thought the tank was more developed than what it was. Other than the incompatibility in terms of pH between the zebras and the ember tetras, they were pushing further down the incorporation of more livestock (e.g. pygmy corys, shrimp). In fact, the first staff did mention that the longer for the first fish to be added the better... but then I saw the ember tetras last Sunday, and I thought it should be ok based on the water results (newbie mistake).

As Jamie says, do very regular water changes and use a kit to see where you are for Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate.

This is the bit where I will partly disagree with all of you (@jamiep, @Bradders and @dw1305), unless the ammonia and nitrite says otherwise. The only tap water I have is ridiculously soft and acidic, no chance for the GH, KH and pH to slowly build up with water changes. I will be checking it right after work and see how it looks, but with very little feeding as @Bradders suggested, we should be able to keep it under control. Hopefully...

You need to take them out, unfortunately they are doomed in your soft water.

Yep, I think that is quite obvious. I will add a couple of small limestone chunks anyway to progressively increase pH, GH and KH, and if anyone nearby Edinburgh/Gorebridge is happy to host the zebras, my treat! @jamiep would you like to have them?

What an interesting learning journey this is going to be...

 

[jamiep]

I'll PM reply properly this evening after work regarding various points. But I disagree with you about the water changes - currently you have too greater about of livestock for a new set up to cope with, which means catastrophically depleting the KH and not being able to deal with the ammonia/nitrate. I don't want your child seeing a load of dead tetra. The unsuitability for the snails is a slowly, longer term problem compared to this more immediate issue

 

[itudela]

I'll PM reply properly this evening after work regarding various points. But I disagree with you about the water changes - currently you have too greater about of livestock for a new set up to cope with, which means catastrophically depleting the KH and not being able to deal with the ammonia/nitrate. I don't want your child seeing a load of dead tetra. The unsuitability for the snails is a slowly, longer term problem compared to this more immediate issue

I fully agree with you on the dead tetra and the snail, which is why I thought about adding the limestone chunks (I look forward to your PM, by the way). I know that if there is an even hint of ammonia or nitrite, I'll do a change straightaway, but not because the KH has been catastrophically depleted - it already is non existent. The tap water for the change will have the same issue: no KH, no GH and low pH, which is why I would like to avoid water changes... unless nitrites and ammonia demand it (I will be conducting analysis early in the morning and in the evening).

I just went ahead and got some pots from Dennerle: 4 floating (2 limnobium laevigatum and 2 phyllanthus fluitans) and 2 for background (pogostemon deccanensis). They should arrive on Wednesday. Fingers crossed...

 

[Bradders]

I would just add that at a pH of 6, Ammonia is likely less of a problem, and Nitrite will become very toxic at very small PPM levels. (It's reversed in pH7+ water).

Out of interest, what is your GH of the current tank water? I ask as even bacteria needs some salts in the water, and there is no real evidence the the tank has cycled (or going through a cycle) despite the zero readings.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I know that if there is an even hint of ammonia or nitrite, I'll do a change straightaway, but not because the KH has been catastrophically depleted - it already is non existent.

New tank management is a <"bit like triage"> in first aid, there is no point in bandaging a finger, if the patients is bleeding out from a severed artery.

The tap water for the change will have the same issue: no KH, no GH and low pH, which is why I would like to avoid water changes...

<"TAN Ammonia will be less of an issue">, as long as the pH remains low, but nitrite (NO2-) is your potential severed artery.

unless nitrites and ammonia demand it (I will be conducting analysis early in the morning and in the evening)..

Honestly <"just change some water">, carbonate hardness is <"a red herring">, it isn't something you need to triage. Many of us have planted tanks with very low dKH values

I just went ahead and got some pots from Dennerle: 4 floating (2 limnobium laevigatum and 2 phyllanthus fluitans) and 2 for background (pogostemon deccanensis). They should arrive on Wednesday. Fingers crossed...

Good, I'm not sure about the Pogostemon, but the floaters should help.

Cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I should have also said that we are<" just trying to help">.

Personally I've been a <"truly terrible fish-keeper">, but I've <"found simple visual ways"> to mitigate for my lack of ability.

If I'd been a better fish-keeper I might not have found it necessary.

Cheers Darrel

 

[itudela]

Out of interest, what is your GH of the current tank water? I ask as even bacteria needs some salts in the water, and there is no real evidence the the tank has cycled (or going through a cycle) despite the zero readings.

That's somehow interesting, the GH of the tank water is 4-7 degrees, whereas the tap water results are <3 degrees. Just noticed @jamiep's tap water in Edinburgh, and his is GH 2-3. It is really that soft... I reckon the GH between 4 - 7 may come from the speckled sand or fluvial support. I rinse them thoroughly and the sand should be inert, but maybe from the support? who knows...

Honestly just change some water, carbonate hardness is red herring, it isn't something you need to triage. Many of us have planted tanks with very low dKH values

I will 🙂 Not sure now if I should dose it with the (new water) treatment anymore... other than Cl2, there is nothing in it. Any recommendations?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Not sure now if I should dose it with the (new water) treatment anymore

This is the calcium carbonate rock I got.

The limestone (CaCO3) you've added will add both dGH calcium (Ca++) and dKH (bicarbonate ions 2HCO3-) <"at a 1 : 1 ratio">. You are going to add the other essential nutrients for plant growth via the food you feed the fish <"and plants">.

cheers Darrel

 

[simon_the_plant_nerd]

@jamiep just realised you are based in Edinburgh. How's your tap water? I am based in Gorebridge and it is ridiculously soft.

If you’re in Gorebridge you have the same water supply as me. It has basically nothing in it. Excellent starting point.

 

[itudela]

If you’re in Gorebridge you have the same water supply as me. It has basically nothing in it. Excellent starting point.

I checked the tap water this evening and there is nothing in it, other than low pH. I am tempted to bring it with me to my job and start using it instead of the millipore DI we use!

Quick tank water test update with JBL strips:
NO3 = 10 ppm
NO2 = 0 ppm
GH = 4 - 7 degrees
KH = 0 degrees
pH = 6.4 (or lower?)
Cl2 = 0 ppm

With Master Test Kit for freshwater aquariums from AquaCare:
NO3 = 2.5 - 5 ppm (a shadow of pink, difficult to decide)
NO2 = 0 ppm
NH3 = 0 ppm
KH = 0 degrees
pH = 6.0 - 6.5 (or lower?)
PO4 = 0 ppm

Tomorrow morning I'll check it again and probably do a water change, either 1/3 or 50%. I reckon the progressive slow increase in NO3 is not that bad news and an indication that some bacteria are starting to settle and do their job... The pacient is not out of the ICU yet!

 

[simon_the_plant_nerd]

I checked the tap water this evening and there is nothing in it

Here’s your water report:

https://www.scottishwater.co.uk/-/media/ScottishWater/Water-Quality/Data/100/202406/Water-202307-Rosebery-A-Last-12-Months.pdf

Rosebery is a relatively new WTW in Penicuik and supplies a lot of Midlothian.

instead of the millipore DI we use

I’ve had water out of a DI unit which wasn’t much different to be honest. 👍🏻