Dwarf gourami fat or something worse?

[Bradders]

Haven't cleaned the filter in a while - it's quite oversized and the water is crystal clear, but I'll do that tomorrow just in case.

Hold back on cleaning any biomedia for now. Instead, I would check that the filter media used for biomedia is not clogged at all and therefore flow remains good. My thought process here is that we should try not to disturb any build-up of the good stuff that removes Dissolved organics, bad bacteria, pathogens, etc. If you get a chance during the check, take a few pictures of the media for me! 🙂 Nothing like visuals! But if the flow is good, and the filter is not completely clogged let's leave it alone for now.

Appreciate the help 🙂
For the water parameters, it's a 90l tank with a sump section at the back. Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphorus are all at 0 as far as the drop tests are concerned. TDS is 265. GH is 160ppm and KH is 116, PH 7.3, though these are a couple of weeks old now. Potassium has always been really high, though slowly coming down. I've also been mixing in more RODI water over the last couple of months. GH came down from 240 to 160 over two months.

Nitrates are 0? OK, when you take the next set of tests let us know how they come out. With the nitrate test (although I am not sure what test kit you use) I think in some you gave to be very careful about the procedure to get accurate results - shaking bottles for 1 minute and mixing and shaking again etc. Let us know the outcome of the results!

Appreciate the help 🙂

I can't promise a solution will be found, but Ill do my best to help, I know how horrible this is to go through.

 

[PARAGUAY]

The signs are,think you ruled out Nitrite levels, so looking like gill flukes ,parasitic. As its a non improving situation you could try esha edx with esha 2000,removing anything like carbon from the filter Treat exactly as esha instructions say

 

[Bradders]

Also, can you let us know the food you are feeding (an image of the ingredients) and the amount fed and the frequency? Just want to add that detail into the mix.

 

[Bradders]

Oh, one final thing: Can you show us the top of the tank in a photo? I want to look at the aeration/gas exchange that is going on for that 90L tank.

Sorry for so many questions! 🙂

 

[Commander Shepard]

Oh, one final thing: Can you show us the top of the tank in a photo? I want to look at the aeration/gas exchange that is going on for that 90L tank.

Sorry for so many questions! 🙂

A couple more of the red neon rainbows died overnight, including the one I separated. Couldn't see anything new after looking at him more closely. Only a single female left now, who looks perfectly fine so far. The forktail rainbows are also doing well.

I have a new set of measurements and photos ready, done with the big JBL suitcase. They all seem fine. There was a spike in TDS which I can only explain if the food does it as I measured shortly after feeding and I haven't changed water since the last measurement.

In terms of changes to the tank, the latest addition was a bamboo shrimp from pets at home and hikari first bites to feed it a few weeks ago. Otherwise, I do a mix of various pellets (tetra, fluval), flakes and algae wafers once a day (it's all just mixed in a tub). Occasionally I give freeze dried bloodworms or brine shrimp and boiled peas or cucumber.

The filter still has decent flow, maybe half compared to after a clean. Still more than a regular hang on the back would give. I'll probably leave the media alone but clean the sponges and maybe the pump as it collected some bladder snails.

Could try ndx but I'm not sure if I should risk esha 2000 with the three different kinds of snails I have.

 

[Bradders]

Thanks for this. Sorry about the further losses. 🙁

I have a new set of measurements and photos ready, done with the big JBL suitcase. They all seem fine. There was a spike in TDS which I can only explain if the food does it as I measured shortly after feeding and I haven't changed water since the last measurement.
The filter still has decent flow, maybe half compared to after a clean. Still more than a regular hang on the back would give. I'll probably leave the media alone but clean the sponges and maybe the pump as it collected some bladder snails.

Last questions after seeing your images - sorry:

1. How many fish and shrimp do you have left in total? Trying to get a feel for stocking.
2. In terms of media, how much (in weight or volume will do) do you have, and what type? I think I can see ceramics and some other types, but I can't see the foams.
3. How much food in weight are you feeding? I'm not sure if you measure it out or weigh it, but I would like to understand.

In the interim, I think you could up the surface agitation a little as that won't hurt for now, especially if we are thinking about preserving the remaining livestock.

 

[Commander Shepard]

~20 fish (these are tiny except for the two dwarf gourami), snails, including a couple of bigger nerites, 5-6 amanos and a bunch of cherry shrimp, mostly babies. Not too worried about the bioload tbh, I need to dose N and P regularly just to keep the plants from dying.

1.5 - 2kg of ceramics and alfagrog and a lot of foam (an entire column of the sump is just foam).

One pinch of food every day, it's gone in 20 seconds or so.

I'll also try to do the jbl O2 test that's included before cleaning the foam, though I'm not convinced it's very accurate.

 

[Bradders]

OK, thanks. If you have stacks of foam, then I agree that should not be causing you a problem with low stocking. (And also supports the very clear water I can see). And I have obviously not been much help as I am still scratching my head! 🙁

I'll also try to do the jbl O2 test that's included before cleaning the foam ....

However, I would not clean the foam unless you really have to, as you seem to have some diseases hanging around. My calculations are that your foam will provide far more surface area and BB than your ceramics and Alfagrog. In the example below of half a foot cubed of each media type (as I don't know exactly how much you have in real life), you can see the foam is 68% of the total surface area - maybe more if you have more foam than Ceramics and Alfagrog:


This is not helpful now, but once you get stable, I would consider whether replacing one of the chambers with more foam or some K1 media could just up the surface area. Changing the Ceramics to 30PPI foam (only as an illustrative example) would greatly improve your surface area capacity for biofiltration.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Changing the Ceramics to 30PPI foam (only as an illustrative example) would greatly improve your surface area capacity for biofiltration.

It might improve water clarity, just by chopping out for mine particles, but honestly surface area (and actually filter media generally) just isn't that relevant, dissolved oxygen is the prime metric in nitrification, you just need to maintain a system where the dissolved oxygen content always exceeds the Biochemical Oxygen Demand (BOD).

This is the activated sludge process during aerobic sewage treatment, there isn't any media at all, just the microbial flocs <"High tech without filter ?">.



cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

A couple more of the red neon rainbows died overnight, including the one I separated.

I'm sorry to hear that, but I'm pretty sure it isn't a water quality issue, mainly because of this:



The only suggestion I have is to stop <"feeding the bloodworms">.

Nitrates are 0?

I agree with @Bradders , the nitrates aren't zero, but we don't know what they are, mainly <"because nitrate testing is problematic">. The plant growth (which is really good) tells you what you need to know, it is your nitrogen test kit.

cheers Darrel

 

[Bradders]

It might improve water clarity, just by chopping out for mine particles, but honestly surface area (and actually filter media generally) just isn't that relevant, dissolved oxygen is the prime metric in nitrification, you just need to maintain a system where the dissolved oxygen content always exceeds the Biochemical Oxygen Demand (BOD).

I agree with the above about nitrification. However, for clarity of my thinking, I was looking at this from an angle of excess bad bacteria in the water column rather than the filter media - hence impairing immunity capability during a disease breakout. You need a good amount of surface area to do this, or it just happens in the water column. I agree nitrification is much easier to achieve (caveat oxygen requirements), and it is probably less relevant in planted tanks. However, ~20x less filtration surface area is needed for nitrification than a (relatively) bacteria-free water column requires.

The only suggestion I have is to stop <"feeding the bloodworms">.

I think that is a good call out.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I agree with the above about nitrification. However, for clarity of my thinking, I was looking at this from an angle of excess bad bacteria in the water column rather than the filter media - hence impairing immunity capability during a disease breakout. You need a good amount of surface area to do this....

I'm not a microbiologist, or fish physiologist, but I'd be really surprised if the type, or quantity of bacteria, in the water column was anything to do with the unfortunate fish deaths.

It Is a shame that @Edvet isn't active on the forum anymore, he is a vet and would have been able so supply a more informed answer.

Cheers Darrel

 

[Commander Shepard]

Thanks everyone! It's still a mistery, but the deaths slowed down at least. I'll finish the interpet treatment then maybe do a round of ndx after it clears and hope for the best. I wanted to move the remaining chilli rasboras, some shrimp and some plants into my new bowl scape, but this makes me quite reluctant, don't want to take any disease over there too. Any ideas if it would transfer?

Also got rid of the blood worms.

Probably done with these pseudomugil rainbows, they have so many issues - they jump, they need a night light, prone to disease, they even choke on food all the time and have to be rescued.

Regarding the filter media, I rinsed the sponges today and the flow increased. I was actually thinking of removing some of the ceramics or maybe all to give more space to the roots. Pretty sure the plants take up all the ammonia before the bacteria can do much. Even have the seachem ammonia alert, but never saw it budge from 0.

The nitrates - I'm sure there's some, especially as I'm dosing them, but it must be below 1ppm. The plants are always just on the edge, if I stop they start getting holes and yellow leaves in a matter of days. The colour on the jbl test kit is always between the two lowest swatches, closer to the lowest one (so <1ppm),though as Darrel said, it's not a very good test.