Double checking full EI dosing as per calc

[GreggZ]

I suspect that it’s a hang over from the now debunked belief that low KH could lead to pH crashes.

Yep and old myths die hard.

The thing is there is a subset of plants that simply won't do well without very low dKH. And to fair there is a VERY small subset that likes a bit more dKH. If you have very high dKH levels there's a pretty big subset that won't do well and your choices are more limited. But as a general rule the lower the dKH the easier it is to keep most plants.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I suspect that it’s a hang over from the now debunked belief that low KH could lead to pH crashes.

Yep and old myths die hard.

I wish it was debunked. I've spent years trying to <"explain acidosis, buffering and pH to people"> on <"various forums">, apparently with relatively little success. This was the conclusion of the <"top google search result"> for the search "buffering pH drop aquarium stability" and looking through the subsequent links just repeated the same depressing read.

Conclusion

Though your aquarium fish may prefer a particularly pH in their native environment, it is much more important to have a stable pH than to have a specific value for your pH. Adjusting the pH in your aquarium can be dangerous to the fish as swings of just 0.3 in a day can be deadly. Therefore, unless you have a specific reason for doing so, it is better to acclimate the fish to your tap water’s pH than to adjust your pH to fit the preference of your fish.

I've recently read that a "pH drop of one unit is always fatal to your fish", and when I (politely) told the author about <"aquascapers and CO2"> their response was that both I, and the aquascapers, are "obviously liars".

I'm now thinking of giving up on both my day job and UKAPS and becoming a salesman of "aquarium grade bicarbonate of soda" and "aquarium salt" because apparently that is where people's tanks start to go wrong, they haven't added enough of either (or both) of these products.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I've recently read that a "pH drop of one unit is always fatal to your fish", and when I (politely) told the author about <"aquascapers and CO2"> their response was that both I, and the aquascapers, are "obviously liars".

At some point I'm going to compile a <"list of these">. In fact scrub list, I'm going to <"write a whole book"> I'm pretty sure <"I have enough"> to rival "War and Peace" in book length, the only problem is that it will be a bit repetitive (although that hasn't hurt Dan Brown).

cheers Darrel

 

[Zeus.]

the only problem is that it will be a bit repetitive (although that hasn't hurt Dan Brown).

you do get the 'déjà vu' feeling with each book

 

[GreggZ]

More seriously though these are pre-set regimes which are basically "standard" all rounded regimes. More like a reference point. It could be 7 dKH or 1dKH that it wouldn't matter. But nowdays we are in the era of "sensitive" plants (or sensitive people) and low dKH tunnel vision (to employ a term that has been trending for some time) where if you are above a certain dKH all hell brakes lose. In all reality unless one is growing some specific sensitive plants, even 5dKH will be no issues. Here is a quote from Dennis at 2hrAquarist:

Yep I agree. Even though I run a very low/no dKH tank, I do believe in general it has been overblown. You can have a fantastic tank at 5 dKH, or even 10 dKH. It just makes things a bit easier at the lower levels, and also opens the door to a wider variety of plants.

I will say that at very high dKH levels, say 15 plus, there is a noticeable difference. I once had source water from a well that we very high in dKH, and things were a bit of a struggle and the number of plants that would thrive at that level was limited.

As to "EI" levels there has never been any "official" EI levels. It is more of a concept than a strict regiment. It also morphs a bit over time. You may remember years ago that EI recommended 5 ppm Fe from micros weekly. A group of us discussed this with Barr years ago and agreed to lower it to 2 ppm Fe on the on line calculators. Then later that was reduced to under 1 ppm. So these things evolve over time.

 

[Zeus.]

Not 100% sure what source I used and a little busy renovating house ATM. But will keep thinking and doing the occasional search. Probably on an old thread 🙄.

As to "EI" levels there has never been any "official" EI levels. It is more of a concept than a strict regiment.

Agree 100%.

On reflection a 5.0kH does seem a little high IMO also. Nobody has ever call us on it, so its @Wookii to blame/thank 👊/😚.

We could also revise the kH figure on the next release if we can have a general consensus what would be suitable
maybe

 

[Zeus.]

Was just thinking about kH and EI dosing and any modification to kH levels should really be done at WC only ie as a Remineralising Agent.
As if it is dosed three times a week the kH will change over the week and so will the tanks pH which if using a pH controller for CO2 levels will results in an unstable [CO2] over the week !!!
So

would be better IMO

 

[GreggZ]

Agree 100%.

On reflection a 5.0kH does seem a little high IMO also. Nobody has ever call us on it, so its @Wookii to blame/thank 👊/😚.

We could also revise the kH figure on the next release if we can have a general consensus what would be suitable

I can only speak for myself but I don't think dKH needs to be addressed in the EI calculator. Most people will do fine with whatever their source water is unless it's extremely high. And then it's not a matter of dosing but perhaps going to RO.

For those blessed with nice soft low dKH soft water there is really no need to bump it up. They should enjoy their good fortune.

Funny thing is that is was a discussion exactly like this that resulted in my leaving (kicked out!) of Plantedtank.net. The mod there is of the old mindset that low dKH tanks will all suffer from a pH crash and speaking of low/no dKH tanks is strictly verboten!

Things do change over time. The Dupla method was once state of the art. I don't know of too many people with heating cables in their substrate these days.

 

[GreggZ]

Was just thinking about kH and EI dosing and any modification to kH levels should really be done at WC only ie as a Remineralising Agent.
As if it is dosed three times a week the kH will change over the week and so will the tanks pH which if using a pH controller for CO2 levels will results in an unstable [CO2] over the week !!!
So
View attachment 190301
would be better IMO

This is a very good point. Whatever your dKH level is it's better to have it stable. As you said particularly with the use of a pH controller.

Another point is that if you are adding K2CO3 or KHCO3 it's best to dose that into a holding tank if possible. When you dose those compounds into a tank there is a temporary large pH spike. I've seen pH rise to 11 or 12 immediately after a dose. It takes 12 to 24 hours for that to stabilize. Some sensitive livestock could be adversely affected with such a sudden rise.

 

[Hanuman]

On reflection a 5.0kH does seem a little high IMO also. Nobody has ever call us on it, so its @Wookii to blame/thank 👊/😚.

Was just thinking about kH and EI dosing and any modification to kH levels should really be done at WC only ie as a Remineralising Agent.
As if it is dosed three times a week the kH will change over the week and so will the tanks pH which if using a pH controller for CO2 levels will results in an unstable [CO2] over the week !!!

can only speak for myself but I don't think dKH needs to be addressed in the EI calculator.

We could also argue that Ca and Mg have no business being part of EI. They are remineralizers, perhaps more Ca than Mg. But I think that removing dKH wouldn't be a bad idea though.

 

[_Maq_]

...the now debunked belief that low KH could lead to pH crashes.

A debunked belief? I still believe water with low KH is prone to pH volatility. Well, "believe" is not the correct word. I just experience it routinely. Is there anything I'm missing here?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I still believe water with low KH is prone to pH volatility

It is, as you approach pure H2O pH becomes <"more and more unstable">, due to the ratio (and log10) nature of the pH scale. This happens <"in nature">, as well as in the aquarium.

I think more the point would be that <"changes in pH"> aren't <"necessarily damaging to fish">.

cheers Darrel

 

[_Maq_]

View attachment 190299

Guys, I don't want to disturb your - obviously dedicated - EI party, however there are also different worlds around.
Firstly, dosing 30 ppm NO3 is insane in itself. But IF I ever had that much nitrate in my tank (and no ammonia), I would dose 4.7 ppm K, 14.7 ppm Mg, and 48.5 ppm Ca. There's way too much potassium there. I don't know what CO2 injection can do, but I'd expect a serious case of Mg and Ca deficiency. Plants prefer potassium to magnesium and calcium because in natural waters, potassium is usually in short supply.

 

[_Maq_]

I think more the point would be that <"changes in pH"> aren't <"necessarily damaging to fish">.

... neither to plants. At first, I sometimes panicked when my pH dropped half a point, but practice taught me that it does little harm.

 

[plantnoobdude]

Guys, I don't want to disturb your - obviously dedicated - EI party, however there are also different worlds around.
Firstly, dosing 30 ppm NO3 is insane in itself. But IF I ever had that much nitrate in my tank (and no ammonia), I would dose 4.7 ppm K, 14.7 ppm Mg, and 48.5 ppm Ca. There's way too much potassium there. I don't know what CO2 injection can do, but I'd expect a serious case of Mg and Ca deficiency. Plants prefer potassium to magnesium and calcium because in natural waters, potassium is usually in short supply.

Your theoretical K level is aligned with marschner in Terms of N:K, coincidence?

 

[_Maq_]

Your theoretical K level is aligned with marschner in Terms of N:K, coincidence?

It's Marschner, indeed. But not for Mg and Ca, they must be in much higher supply than what would apply if only consumption were taken into account.

 

[Wookii]

A debunked belief? I still believe water with low KH is prone to pH volatility. Well, "believe" is not the correct word. I just experience it routinely. Is there anything I'm missing here?

Yes Marcel, you’re missing the point that that pH fluctuations don’t matter.

 

[_Maq_]

Yes Marcel

I'm not Marcel. I think I know who you mean, I know him personally, but it's not me.

 

[GreggZ]

A debunked belief? I still believe water with low KH is prone to pH volatility. Well, "believe" is not the correct word. I just experience it routinely. Is there anything I'm missing here?

Many if not most of the best planted tanks in the hobby run very, very little to no dKH. I've been running my tank for years at zero dKH for years now.

The pH is very stable other than when I drop it via CO2 injection. If tanks experience a pH crash it's almost always related to poor maintenance.

Here's a good article about low pH tanks. My tank is pictured there when I was running 1 dKH.

2hr Aquarist Low pH Tanks

But if you are a disciple of Marcel's then I am guessing there is little we will agree on and I am pretty sure I know where this is going. It almost always ends the same way.

 

[Hanuman]

Guys, I don't want to disturb your - obviously dedicated - EI party, however there are also different worlds around.

Fist of all that sounds ironic. Second of all there is no party here nor are we promoting any EI regime. We are merely commenting on some technical feature on the calculator that should either stay or go. Granted it's starting to go off topic.

Firstly, dosing 30 ppm NO3 is insane in itself. But IF I ever had that much nitrate in my tank (and no ammonia), I would dose 4.7 ppm K, 14.7 ppm Mg, and 48.5 ppm Ca. There's way too much potassium there. I don't know what CO2 injection can do, but I'd expect a serious case of Mg and Ca deficiency. Plants prefer potassium to magnesium and calcium because in natural waters, potassium is usually in short supply.

It's not, even if that sounds monstrous to you. Here , this is what I am dosing and my tank is running smoothly with no hiccups. No Algea, co PH crush no shenanigans of any sort even with dKH close to 0 or at 0.

A debunked belief? I still believe water with low KH is prone to pH volatility. Well, "believe" is not the correct word. I just experience it routinely. Is there anything I'm missing here?

Not sure what you are doing, but I have been using RO water for the past 2 years and never have I experienced a crash and so has anyone I know using RO water and not adding any carbonates to the tank. Maybe if you are running a bare tank with no substrate and basically no hardscape, perhaps that would happen. If you are experiencing those crashes then you should be experiencing them daily pretty violently and your fish would probably be dead by now.

Your theoretical K level is aligned with marschner in Terms of N:K, coincidence?

It's Marschner, indeed. But not for Mg and Ca, they must be in much higher supply than what would apply if only consumption were taken into account.

This seems to be taking yet another unnecessary road turn. Perhaps we should keep in line with the OP?