• You are viewing the forum as a Guest, please login (you can use your Facebook, Twitter, Google or Microsoft account to login) or register using this link: Log in or Sign Up

Does excess P encourage hair algae?

Hi all,
It seems that even among aquarium plants there are some species that are adapted to nutrient poor conditions, but lack some physiological mechanisms that would protect them from being poisoned by too much nutrients.
I think there definitely will be some, and that they are likely to be plants that aren't commonly produced commercially.

You could look at families to give some idea of whether plants are likely to either not be able to utilise high nutrients, or alternatively be damaged by them. Most of the mosses and ferns might be examples, but families like the Ericaceae, Bromeliads, Orchids and Proteaceae don't have any aquatic members.

It won't be a perfect fit because "hard determinist" has already found that Rotala wallichii and Rotala rotundifolia have different requirements, although they both belong to the same genus.

Families worth investigating would be:
Araceae
Eriocaulaceae
Isoetaceae
Hymenophyllaceae
Lentibulariaceae
Pteridaceae etc.

cheers Darrel
 
I think it would help a lot if we know the water & sediment parameters of these species in their natural habitat. This may give us a right direction of where to look. For example, Taiwanese rivers seems to have rather alkaline pH (7.5 to 8.5), hardness of 7-10°dGH, dissolved oxygen >7 mg/L, 2-10 mg/L NO3, and 0.2-0.3 mg/L PO4 (from natural to highly influenced waters). But I don't know other parameters, and I don't even know if these parameters are common for the R.wallichii's habitat. Also, Taiwan is not the only natural habitat for R.wallichii. But at least, it can direct us to alkaline pH, higher hardness, and lower nutrient levels to begin with. I think there are other aquarium species that may be adapted to some special (narrow) environment conditions, like some Alternanthera species, Pogostemon stellatus, Limnophila aromatica, Utricularia graminifolia (UG), and probably most of the so-called "Advanced" or "Hard" species. Unfortunately, there is probably no hobbyist there these days who would systematically study the specific demands of these species, so that we may know what envinronment is best for them (or what to avoid). The general advice I hear almost everywhere is EI levels of nutrients + high CO2. I don't believe this general advice can be applied to all species, or yield the best possible results. I can grow R.wallichii under EI levels of nutrients, and it gives me probably the highest growth rate, but the plants look terribly, and the growth is deformed. On the other hand, under high hardness, and alkalinity, together with low nutrient levels it gives me definitely the best look, although the growth rate is slower.
 
I think that this is very important piece of knowledge, that is being very much overlooked among hobbyists. It seems that even among aquarium plants there are some species that are adapted to nutrient poor conditions, but lack some physiological mechanisms that would protect them from being poisoned by too much nutrients. Thus, when we try to grow these plants in EI fertilized tanks they do poorly, and it's obviously not any CO2 issue. In some cases the growth rate may be boosted (by higher nutrient levels), but their overall shape is poor and shows many kinds of deformations.

Agree that some plant's have adapted to grow in nutrient poor condition's lest they die.
But something also overlooked by some hobbyist's, is the fact that not everybody using Estimative index struggles with a particular plant.(as you suggest above)
Just because you do, or a dozen do,does not negate those who have no such issues .
I suppose one can argue that some have issues and just don't know it, but one cannot say that all who dose EI have the problem's you are seeing.
Same maybe applies with CO2. Just because one claims that they have high CO2 does not mean it is properly distributed through out the tank or is consistent for everyone.
Could still be an issue depending on a few variables .Cannot say it is obviously NOT a CO2 issue for anyone other than you and your particular tank..
 
I don't negate nor question others success in growing R.wallichii (for example) in their tanks. But I don't have any reliable info about the real conditions present in these tanks. Someone may have success growing R.wallichii when dosing EI levels of nutrient, but to be honest, we know nothing reliable about the real nutrient levels in his tank. It is possible that some nutrients may precipitate in his tank (Fe, PO4), some nutrients may be bound by natural or artificial chelates, thus their actual concentration in water may be very low. Other factors may play role also, which he may not even notice. This is why the controlled experiments are so important.

You say, "Just because one claims that they have high CO2 does not mean it is properly distributed through out the tank or is consistent for everyone". But I may say, "Just because one claims that they dose high amount of nutrients does not mean these nutrients are really present in the water". So when someone says he grows R.wallichii under EI method, such statement has a poor information value.
 
Yes, I do.
If you do, then the OP question, "Does P encourage hair algae" should be already answered. No need to discuss various hypothesis. :p

More seriously, for the noobs watching, when a discussion is scientific, then science rules (evidence, consillience, peer review, validity, generalisability etc) apply. But when various ideas are being discussed, then on the internet at least, everyone can offer an opinion. Every opinion will be valid because the concepts will be evidence free-zones. It's not useful to ask for people to conform to scientific rules.

My suggestion/opinion was that Tom grew UG very well in his very high light EI dosed tank. This is just an anecdote, not evidence of anything. :)

Thanks for providing your evidence though. :)
 
If you do, then the OP question, "Does P encourage hair algae" should be already answered.
How is it? I was speaking "off-topic" about the demands of aquarium plants, not about P encouraging hair algae, so how could my comments give OP any relevant answer to his initial question?

When a discussion is scientific, then science rules ... apply. But when various ideas are being discussed, then ... everyone can offer an opinion. Every opinion will be valid because the concepts will be evidence free-zones. It's not useful to ask for people to conform to scientific rules.
Why is it not useful? Is it more useful to give us anecdotal "evidences" over the scientific ones? Either we want to know the truth, or we want just empty talk. What's the use of your statement that "Tom grew UG very well in his very high light EI dosed tank"? Does it tell us anything about the true demands of this plant? No. Will this help someone if he experiences any problems? I doubt it. It tells us only that UG can grow well in one high light EI dosed tank under dozens of other unknown conditions. Tom explains his success by good CO2 management, but gives us only anecdotal evidence, not any scientific one. You can believe it or not. Again, it's based on the belief or luck, not on the real, reliable knowledge. I don't want to question Tom's experiences or anectodal evidences. But scientific evidences (true knowledge) are much more important and desirable for me to produce repeatable, systematic results. Tom may be producing repeatable, systematic results under some (his) specific conditions, which is not surprising. But someone else may experience problems under different conditions. And unless we know the real demands of our plants, we can't produce repeatable, systematic results in all tanks. You believe Tom's explanation so much that you are unable to accept the possibility that other people may experience problems even under perfect CO2 management (in other words, that CO2 management may not be the key element with some plants).

My point was to point out that without knowing the real demands of our plants, our success is dependent mostly on luck. Do we want to grow our plants based on the luck or based on the knowledge (facts)?

Thanks for providing your evidence though.
My evidence and experiment results are published continuously on my website.
 
I don't negate nor question others success in growing R.wallichii (for example) in their tanks. But I don't have any reliable info about the real conditions present in these tanks. Someone may have success growing R.wallichii when dosing EI levels of nutrient, but to be honest, we know nothing reliable about the real nutrient levels in his tank. It is possible that some nutrients may precipitate in his tank (Fe, PO4), some nutrients may be bound by natural or artificial chelates, thus their actual concentration in water may be very low. Other factors may play role also, which he may not even notice. This is why the controlled experiments are so important.

You say, "Just because one claims that they have high CO2 does not mean it is properly distributed through out the tank or is consistent for everyone". But I may say, "Just because one claims that they dose high amount of nutrients does not mean these nutrients are really present in the water". So when someone says he grows R.wallichii under EI method, such statement has a poor information value.

You may say whatever you wish, but it does not help other's,nor does it make you right without question.
If one adopt's a dosing scheme (any scheme), then they know what amount's of nutrient's they are adding and that are present in the water at the time they dosed them along with those that may come naturally to the system (fish waste,fish food's)
Now if one ask's.. can can they dose less or more and achieve their desired result's ? Yes/maybe no.
Plenty of evidence that this is so.
EI method is a good place to begin, for it is unlikely for one to see deficiencies at the outset of planting their tank as a result.
This get's one closer to being able to provide for plant's while maybe substituting,reducing,increasing nutrient 's, for their water condition's or plant's as needed.
This is more difficult to do if the plant's are dying from the get go due to deficiencies.IMHO
EI method was/is not carved in stone as Dr. Barr has said many, many, times, but is hugely successful for many who have adopted it and then went on to post some of the photo's of tank's in the photo gallery here,and on other forum's I visit.(many adopt EI dosing scheme)
I'll float my stick with the method that produces the best result's for me, which is modified version of EI for my low tech affair's however unscientific it may be to the geek's with the horned rim glasses, and pocket protector's, that appear all too often with no useful number's as to what might be too much or too little in the way of providing nutrient's ,but are all too quick to declare that EI method is the boogey man.
Without number's..all one can say is the sky is high,and the Ocean deep.
It is just too simple for them and an irritant, that so many seem to be able to have good to great success with very little science involved ,which leaves them feeling irrelevant to seething at times as evidenced by their disdain for EI and it's creator (though they often deny it).
Humorous to me ,but little help to new comer's seeking an easy way to provide for their plant's while exploring the scientific aspect's, and anomaly's at their leisure.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tim
...to the geek's with the horned rim glasses, and pocket protector's, that appear all too often with no useful number's as to what might be too much or too little in the way of providing nutrient's ,but are all too quick to declare that EI method is the boogey man.
Roadmaster, you seem to be really blinded by a hatred towards me or people who are EI-restrained. Whatever I say, you interpret as EI-criticism or Tom-criticism (which is downright wrong). I am not attacking EI or Tom. I do some growth experiments with aquarium plants. I use different nutrient concentration in each tank. I don't care if in one tank the nutrient concentration is close to EI levels or not. I use 2, 4, 8, 16, and 32 ppm NO3 + other nutrients in my experiments. I don't want to describe all the parameters here, as this post is clearly off-topic, but I want to say/explain something to you (although I doubt it has any positive impact on your hatred/blindness). As I said, my goal is to find out the true demands of aquarium plants - at least the ones I decided to study. Some of them grow really good even under very high nutrient levels (32 ppm NO3), others seem to be harmed by higher nutrient levels. For example, R.wallichii grew well under 2 ppm NO3, but under higher nutrient levels it showed a deformed growth. I don't know what nutrient is causing this demage, but I try to find it out. Also, the plant showed obvious improvement when I increased the total hardness. Now its growth is quite good, and it has a nice red coloration. Also, under higher nutrient levels it's loosing its red color, and becomes green. These are some of my observations so far. My concern is to gather some serious information that can help us to know its demands, so that we can have systematic success in growing it. I don't care if you hate me or are trying to put down my sincere effort to find something out, and share it with the ones who want to listen. You were the troll who provoked me so much with your hatered and perverted twisting and misinterpreting my words, that I finally decided to delete all my posts on plantedtank.net (http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...-promote-algae-growth-toxic-aquatic-life.html + the one about the growth experiment), which earned me a lifetime ban. This is your work, this is what you do with people whom you hate. Also, you are the main reason why I don't share my experiment results publically anymore, but only to registered users on my website.
 
Last edited:
I ain't blind nor do I hate anyone or anything, except Beet's.:what:
I interpret what I read with sincerity, and attempt to speak my truth as I know it.
Cannot speak to how other's might interpret what has been written by me or you.They shall have to speak their truth.
 
How is it? I was speaking "off-topic" about the demands of aquarium plants, not about P encouraging hair algae, so how could my comments give OP any relevant answer to his initial question?


Why is it not useful? Is it more useful to give us anecdotal "evidences" over the scientific ones? Either we want to know the truth, or we want just empty talk. What's the use of your statement that "Tom grew UG very well in his very high light EI dosed tank"? Does it tell us anything about the true demands of this plant? No. Will this help someone if he experiences any problems? I doubt it. It tells us only that UG can grow well in one high light EI dosed tank under dozens of other unknown conditions. Tom explains his success by good CO2 management, but gives us only anecdotal evidence, not any scientific one. You can believe it or not. Again, it's based on the belief or luck, not on the real, reliable knowledge. I don't want to question Tom's experiences or anectodal evidences. But scientific evidences (true knowledge) are much more important and desirable for me to produce repeatable, systematic results. Tom may be producing repeatable, systematic results under some (his) specific conditions, which is not surprising. But someone else may experience problems under different conditions. And unless we know the real demands of our plants, we can't produce repeatable, systematic results in all tanks. You believe Tom's explanation so much that you are unable to accept the possibility that other people may experience problems even under perfect CO2 management (in other words, that CO2 management may not be the key element with some plants).

My point was to point out that without knowing the real demands of our plants, our success is dependent mostly on luck. Do we want to grow our plants based on the luck or based on the knowledge (facts)?


My evidence and experiment results are published continuously on my website.
Hiya HD, is your evidence peer reviewed? Otherwise it's just your personal anecdotes. Same as my comments. At least with my comments, I declare they are anecdotes. Both our comments are useless in a scientific discussion.

Anecdotes are really useful in the hobby. For example, since Tom ( or Harry) has grown UG in a high nutrient environment means that someone else can also try. Again, this would useless as scientific knowledge. But it's useful for the hobby.

I am really keen to see your anecdotes though; that's because I am charitable and curious. Others won't be so kind to you. Remember you are communicating with humans...treat them like you would apwant to be treated.
 
Hiya HD, is your evidence peer reviewed? Otherwise it's just your personal anecdotes. Same as my comments.
My results are not peer reviewed. But are you serious about that every result that did not passed through peer review process has exactly the same value as your anecdotal statements? Is there really no difference between the value of any data? If so, than what is your measure to judge information? Feelings? Belief? Blue eyes of the one who utters them? PhD degree? Number of posts in the forum or "guru" status? Is there no difference between subjective observation with poor supportive data vs. well documented controlled experiment? And do you think it is a good idea to talk down any effort to do some systematic work (experiments) like you and roadmaster do? Don't you really want to know something, or your only goal is to put down everyone who doesn't share your world's view?
 
My results are not peer reviewed. But are you serious about that every result that did not passed through peer review process has exactly the same value as your anecdotal statements? Is there really no difference between the value of any data? If so, than what is your measure to judge information? Feelings? Belief? Blue eyes of the one who utters them? PhD degree? Number of posts in the forum or "guru" status? Is there no difference between subjective observation with poor supportive data vs. well documented controlled experiment? And do you think it is a good idea to talk down any effort to do some systematic work (experiments) like you and roadmaster do? Don't you really want to know something, or your only goal is to put down everyone who doesn't share your world's view?
Actually you ask a good question. There are different quality data and deductions. Science doesn't tell us how much data is required before we elevate a hypothesis to an established theory. But certainly consilliece would be a requirement.

Since I haven't seen your data, I would assume it's an anecdote. Don't care whether you have phd or three of them.

Share you data so that others can replicate them. That's how science works. While I am curious about the science, I am more interested about growing nice plants.
 
Share you data so that others can replicate them. That's how science works.
Because of trolls like roadmaster I decided to share not any data publically anymore (I share them with people in my country only/mainly), because I don't want people like him to have access to them. Maybe one day I change my mind, but now I am too disappointed by such people and their hatred.

PS: I apologize the OP for this off-topic discussion.
 
Pffft!
 
Because of trolls like roadmaster I decided to share not any data publically anymore (I share them with people in my country only/mainly), because I don't want people like him to have access to them. Maybe one day I change my mind, but now I am too disappointed by such people and their hatred.

PS: I apologize the OP for this off-topic discussion.
In that case, many thanks for your anecdotes.

Rock on with P and algae dudes.
 
Back
Top