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Cycling without plants?
- Thread starter Cornelius
- Start date
roadmaster
Member
Some may worry bout ammonia produced from aquasoil or other soils, but as mentioned,water changes weekly, just like your gonna be doin,should be doin anyway, negates the concern and as also mentioned,,directed by some substrate manf..
Plant's won't be harmed by ammonia leaching with water changes,little chance for algae with modest to large plant mass, nutrient's,and not too much light energy straight away, and the plant's immediately begin to draw from the soil as ammonification begins naturally, or by design of some of the the high dollar susbtrates,potting mixes.(they are supposed to )?
Can't stop it unless major brain fart takes place.
IMHO
Plant's won't be harmed by ammonia leaching with water changes,little chance for algae with modest to large plant mass, nutrient's,and not too much light energy straight away, and the plant's immediately begin to draw from the soil as ammonification begins naturally, or by design of some of the the high dollar susbtrates,potting mixes.(they are supposed to )?
Can't stop it unless major brain fart takes place.
IMHO
Hi all,
It isn't that it isn't possible, a lot of people keep fish with high water quality requirements (like Discus and L46) using bare tanks, microbial filtration and large water changes, however you are balanced on a knife edge and you don't have any wriggle room when things go wrong.
It is all down to probability in the end, I'm a pretty shoddy fish keeper, and I have extended time periods when I can't regularly maintain all the tanks, so I like to avoid single points of failure and have systems which are resilient and stable if conditions change.
<"Heavy planting">, and plants with the <"aerial advantage">, just make tank management easier.
cheers Darrel
Pretty much, if you don't have plants you are obliged to try a <"fishless cycle">, and then rely on microbial filtration within the filter and substrate
It isn't that it isn't possible, a lot of people keep fish with high water quality requirements (like Discus and L46) using bare tanks, microbial filtration and large water changes, however you are balanced on a knife edge and you don't have any wriggle room when things go wrong.
It is all down to probability in the end, I'm a pretty shoddy fish keeper, and I have extended time periods when I can't regularly maintain all the tanks, so I like to avoid single points of failure and have systems which are resilient and stable if conditions change.
<"Heavy planting">, and plants with the <"aerial advantage">, just make tank management easier.
cheers Darrel
Nigel95
Member
This is a common approach done by Xiaozhuang Wong. He is very skilled at growing plants. I am also considering this because I will use high light in my next project. It feels better to have a more stable / matured tank and then do the planting especially with high light. I can't dim my lights only hang it higher but not enough to create a low light environment.
If someone didn't see his site yet I highly recommend it reading. https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/
Basically you just build the hardscape with soil and flood it. Then you let the cycle continue w/o ferts, co2 and light till ammonia and nitrite are 0. When that is done you add the plants.
If someone didn't see his site yet I highly recommend it reading. https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/
Basically you just build the hardscape with soil and flood it. Then you let the cycle continue w/o ferts, co2 and light till ammonia and nitrite are 0. When that is done you add the plants.
Nigel95
Member
This is wat Xiaozhuang Wong said recently on Facebook about this: "If you use ADA aquasoil, delicate plants will melt if your tank is not pre-cycled - just ask anyone that tries growing tissue culture UG. Robust plants will be fine. Cycling the tank with ammonia rich soils before hand is much more stable - in avoiding algae issues, plant melt, other instabilities. People who have never done this think that plant melt or algae is normal - it isn't, it is just poor practice."
So even though it is not the reinvention of the wheel one could state that it's a new kind of tyre that somehow gives the good ol'wheels more grip and control...
I knew there was more behind it when i applied this method!
Thanks Nigel...
My man, my man!!
😀
hehe
zozo
Member
Fo rthe record. 🙂 Utricularia graminifolia is about the most delicate plant in the hobby.. By nature it rather grows as afixed aquatic carnivore in very low EC waters with very little fertilization. Al carnivorus plants take the fixed nitrogen etc. it requires mainly from the decomposition from it's pray it catches, UG catches aquatic micro organism with its utricles. They are known to be extrmely intolerant and sensitive to burn and melt from excessive fertilization. This is also the most obvious reason why almost everybody fails growing this plant long term in combination with other macrophytes in the same tank. The amounts of fertilazation a macrophyte requires to thrive is always to much for UG to survive long term. Regardles the soil used.. Most scapes where UG thrives long term are scapes delicately setup with UG only and maybe in combination with some mosses and or epiphytes.
Knowing this about UG i'm not at all surprised with Xiaozhuang Wong's workaround as described above and why it is necessary. What surpises me, is why he still chooses ADA aquasoil to grow this plant. 🙂
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Nigel95
Member
I've asked him 🙂
He said that he has the patience / time to wait that the soil is cycled.
I think he just likes ada aqua soil and also the ammonia to cycle the filter but has time to cycle the tank w/o plants and have less issues (algae / melting plants)
lol
Meh, UG must be my holy grail...
Currently i experience my biggest success yet: three leaves (yeh, three individual leaves, 3!!) seem to survive buried in my Staurogene repens. They got stuck there during the big UG meltdown and are still there now, three months later, as a silent witness
, 'member berries of my failed attempt(s)...Might be obliged to give up
or to consider a UG only scape by the sounds of the above... 
Angus
Member
UG has never done well for me, i gave up, i think it's not meant to be for me, one guy on facebook with a full carpet said cooler water, low nitrates and phosphates and mature tank media/substrate was his tips.
Definitely makes sense considering my own observations, but i feel like some melt is acceptable, as long as you are not losing more than 5%-10% plant mass, i just like planting from day 1 as a personal preference.
zozo
Member
About every modern aquascaping practice such as prestine clear water, a tank absolutely cleaner than the room it stands in, EI fertilization, fertilized substartes and or occasinaly algicide products are all rather counter productive for growing UG long term. Tho one can expect from an completely submersed planted and photosynthetic aspect with ample CO² some extra fertilization is required. But far less than what a macrophyte needs to thrive planted next to UG. These plants chould be selected very carefully.
Personaly i had best succes with UG in a high tech inveronment growing it semi submersed (affixed aqautic) very shallow like this on a hollow piece of wood at the surface.
Left side is about all UG.
By adding to much ferts in regard to the UG it finaly got completely outcompeted by the Lilaeopsis and other plants. The same DW piece few months later. UG is still in there but finaly completely disappeared.
Also had it at the other side of the tank growing like this, let it find it's own way submersed.. Note the little strains of HC growing out.. 🙂
Close up you see clearly the Utricles on it's rootstrucure that it uses to catch micro-organisme. This is what the plant needs to survive and thrive. Hence bladderwort..
This requires some free space and flow it shouldn't be cramped into the substrate. If it is, it doesn't make sense.
I think i'm correct to assume, there would be growing more utricles if there was more micro-organisme available.
Also this took a few months to get completely outcompeted by HC looking like this. Once full with UG, at this point it was still in there but very little.
All finaly slowly disappeared in about 2 years time, never seen it excessively melt away actualy.
The cause likely was that i used some Glut for a while to fight stag outbrakes and sprayed peroxide around the tank. This also kills off loads of micro-organisme. Than filtering a while over carbon the get clear water, reduces micro-organisme development.
What you realy need is low EC and add loads of leaf litter and let this decompose in the tank. This is what micro-organisme breeds on, it thrives in water rich in humic substances that obviously will be very stained water.
These are all things the modern diorama scaper doesn't want, tho they want to grow UG. Than you realy are in for a challange.. To achieve this..
It is possible but i doubt it this was a long term setup.. It probably completely exploded not so long after this shot and or completely crashed after the first major trim. Dunno.. It seems to be a cosely gaurded very experienced scapers show off secrets. Now and then you see them come and go without much background information. 🙂 I also think this grows on a mesh and not in the substrate.
Personaly i had best succes with UG in a high tech inveronment growing it semi submersed (affixed aqautic) very shallow like this on a hollow piece of wood at the surface.
Left side is about all UG.
By adding to much ferts in regard to the UG it finaly got completely outcompeted by the Lilaeopsis and other plants. The same DW piece few months later. UG is still in there but finaly completely disappeared.
Also had it at the other side of the tank growing like this, let it find it's own way submersed.. Note the little strains of HC growing out.. 🙂
Close up you see clearly the Utricles on it's rootstrucure that it uses to catch micro-organisme. This is what the plant needs to survive and thrive. Hence bladderwort..
This requires some free space and flow it shouldn't be cramped into the substrate. If it is, it doesn't make sense.
I think i'm correct to assume, there would be growing more utricles if there was more micro-organisme available.
Also this took a few months to get completely outcompeted by HC looking like this. Once full with UG, at this point it was still in there but very little.
All finaly slowly disappeared in about 2 years time, never seen it excessively melt away actualy.
The cause likely was that i used some Glut for a while to fight stag outbrakes and sprayed peroxide around the tank. This also kills off loads of micro-organisme. Than filtering a while over carbon the get clear water, reduces micro-organisme development.
What you realy need is low EC and add loads of leaf litter and let this decompose in the tank. This is what micro-organisme breeds on, it thrives in water rich in humic substances that obviously will be very stained water.
These are all things the modern diorama scaper doesn't want, tho they want to grow UG. Than you realy are in for a challange.. To achieve this..
It is possible but i doubt it this was a long term setup.. It probably completely exploded not so long after this shot and or completely crashed after the first major trim. Dunno.. It seems to be a cosely gaurded very experienced scapers show off secrets. Now and then you see them come and go without much background information. 🙂 I also think this grows on a mesh and not in the substrate.
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Angus
Member
Nice post zozo.
G
Guest
Guest
I guess when you have a nutrient rich substrate like ADA AS cycling without plants makes sense.
I've experienced the melt and diatomaceous algae myself planting in new AS before the tank was cycled.
Second time around the soil was reused and therefore probably not anywhere near as nutrient rich - I didn't get any of the above...could have been coincidence, but I doubt it.
I've experienced the melt and diatomaceous algae myself planting in new AS before the tank was cycled.
Second time around the soil was reused and therefore probably not anywhere near as nutrient rich - I didn't get any of the above...could have been coincidence, but I doubt it.
About every modern aquascaping practice such as prestine clear water, a tank absolutely cleaner than the room it stands in, EI fertilization, fertilized substartes and or occasinaly algicide products are all rather counter productive for growing UG long term. Tho one can expect from an completely submersed planted and photosynthetic aspect with ample CO² some extra fertilization is required. But far less than what a macrophyte needs to thrive planted next to UG. These plants chould be selected very carefully.
Personaly i had best succes with UG in a high tech inveronment growing it semi submersed (affixed aqautic) very shallow like this on a hollow piece of wood at the surface.
Left side is about all UG.
By adding to much ferts in regard to the UG it finaly got completely outcompeted by the Lilaeopsis and other plants. The same DW piece few months later. UG is still in there but finaly completely disappeared.
Also had it at the other side of the tank growing like this, let it find it's own way submersed.. Note the little strains of HC growing out.. 🙂
Close up you see clearly the Utricles on it's rootstrucure that it uses to catch micro-organisme. This is what the plant needs to survive and thrive. Hence bladderwort..
This requires some free space and flow it shouldn't be cramped into the substrate. If it is, it doesn't make sense.
I think i'm correct to assume, there would be growing more utricles if there was more micro-organisme available.
Also this took a few months to get completely outcompeted by HC looking like this. Once full with UG, at this point it was still in there but very little.
All finaly slowly disappeared in about 2 years time, never seen it excessively melt away actualy.
The cause likely was that i used some Glut for a while to fight stag outbrakes and sprayed peroxide around the tank. This also kills off loads of micro-organisme. Than filtering a while over carbon the get clear water, reduces micro-organisme development.
What you realy need is low EC and add loads of leaf litter and let this decompose in the tank. This is what micro-organisme breeds on, it thrives in water rich in humic substances that obviously will be very stained water.
These are all things the modern diorama scaper doesn't want, tho they want to grow UG. Than you realy are in for a challange.. To achieve this..
It is possible but i doubt it this was a long term setup.. It probably completely exploded not so long after this shot and or completely crashed after the first major trim. Dunno.. It seems to be a cosely gaurded very experienced scapers show off secrets. Now and then you see them come and go without much background information. 🙂 I also think this grows on a mesh and not in the substrate.
Thanks for your great reply!
Nice information and sweet pictures of your experiments! Looks really nice.
And yes: that last picture with the carpet of UG is the stuff that my dreams are made of... 😉
But you might be right that those are mostly short term setups...
Food for thoughts anyhow!
Cheers
zozo
Member
Thank you all for your likes.. 🙂 I'm also not so sure about internets trust worthyness. The most trust worthy threads if actualy not all UG carpet attemps failed. And i wouldn't be surprised if a scape like last pic is setup with knowing the plant, how to propperly dry start it. Then at the best time fill the tank, take pics.. Show it off, grab the kudos. And the thread ends because it's down hill from there.. 🙂 I don't say all, but the majority might be. Because there extremely little recources to find on trimming UG submersed.. 99% never gets to that stadium.Thanks for your great reply!
Nice information and sweet pictures of your experiments! Looks really nice.
And yes: that last picture with the carpet of UG is the stuff that my dreams are made of... 😉
But you might be right that those are mostly short term setups...
Food for thoughts anyhow!
Cheers
The keep dreaming scenario..
zozo
Member
Here is one of the last attemps i know of, totlay forgot about it and didn't check how it went. Started end (nov/dec) 2015 dry starting UG.. Did a pretty good job actualy, had a nice carpet.. But swapped the UG for hairgras in april 2016, that's 4 months into the process because of the difficulty keeping it nice and clean.
http://www.aquascapingworld.com/threads/mystical-mountains-journal.9578/
As said, it explodes at one time, because it doesn't want to cramped into the substrate it can't live like that. It grows itself out off it.. 🙂
http://www.aquascapingworld.com/threads/mystical-mountains-journal.9578/
As said, it explodes at one time, because it doesn't want to cramped into the substrate it can't live like that. It grows itself out off it.. 🙂
