Cycling - Soft acidic water

[Joelhill84]

Hi guys,

This is my first post here, I’m relatively new to the hobby, I’ve had a 30 liter nano tank with shrimp in the past. I’m trying to do a fishless cycle. I added 2ppm ammonia 7 days ago and it hasn’t gone down yet, after some research I think I worked out why..

My tap water parameters are:

pH: 6.6
KH and GH both less than 1

Tank parameters:

pH: less than 6
KH: less than 1
GH: 2

I’ve read that such a low pH can stall a cycle and stop the bacteria from forming.

I can’t test the ph actual reading in my tank because I don’t have a low range test kit and couldn’t find one in store.

I am running co2 which I’ve read can lower the pH by 1 point, I also have a piece of driftwood, corbo root, dragon stone and slate in the tank.

I noticed that the co2 drop checker also does not change back to blue when co2 is off, but read that the drop checker fluid is essentially pH water, could this be affected by it being such a low pH?

My main question is how can I cycle my tank? The pH is very low from tap water, I’ve read that I can add crushed coral to my filter, I have an Oase bio master 350, and this will raise the pH to allow a cycle, but once it has cycled and pH drops again, will the bacteria still be there or die off again? I only plan to keep some snails, neocaridina and possibly chilli rasboras in the future

My apologies for such a long post but I’m struggling to find definitive information elsewhere online.

Thank you

 

[hypnogogia]

You have very soft water, so it will ch age ph very easily with addition of CO2. I don’t believe your problem is with the low ph though.

Is the tank planted up? If not, plant it and then wait for it to cycle. There’s no need to add ammonia. Best just to let things happen by themselves, and be patient.

 

[Joelhill84]

Yeah I have planted it with
Hornwort
Java fern
Anubias nana
Rotala blood red
Monte Carlo (trying to make a carpet)
Christmas moss
Riccia fluitans

If I’m not adding ammonia and letting it drop to 0 how do I know when it is cycled?

Should I do a water change to remove the ammonia that I’ve added?

Thanks

 

[CRS Fan]

I have a similar dilemma in Vancouver (almost 0 GH/KH and a total TDS of 10-15 ppm). I’ve used SeaChem Equilibrium to buffer up my water as a result. I’ve also used SeaChem Stability as a bacterial booster. I would suggest pre-dissolving the Equilibrium before adding it to the tank as it can burn plants if it lands directly on them. Using both these products should help with bacterial activity and PH swings. As mentioned above, CO2 addition with a low GH/KH will cause PH swings and possibly a PH crash.

JMHO.

Stuart

 

[hypnogogia]

You’ll need to do daily water changes for at least the first week, dropping down to twice weekly after perhaps two weeks for the next two weeks. You’ll get some brown algae called diatoms, and the water changes will keep these under control. They will eventually disappear. (I’m setting up a new low tech and they went after 5 weeks). Once they’ve gone and your plants have started growing, you should be ready to introduce a few critters. Don’t get too obsessive about testing. You’ll naturally get an ammonia spike, which will then start reducing as nitrite starts developing.

There are a few threads about cycling, and @dw1305 can explain the science behind it.

 

[Joelhill84]

So if I remove all the ammonia through water changes that I’ve added, and let the soil naturally release ammonia that will let bacteria multiply then after a few weeks it should be cycled? I’m sorry for all the questions, Im struggling to find simple information that helps my situation.

Would you mind posting links to the threads that would give me information that would help me?

I don’t want to do it wrong and then add shrimp and have them die off straight away

Time is not a concern to me because I enjoy just having the aquarium with plants until I know it’s safe to add life

 

[Simon Cole]

@MichaelJ provided answers on how to remineralise a 27 litre tank <here>. I'm in the same boat as you, but I found that post rather useful. Snails are rarely adapted to soft water.

 

[Maf 2500]

Think of the process as seasoning the tank rather than cycling it. Let the plants, substrate, filter etc mature by themselves and in a few weeks it will be ready for fish and shrimps. If you have the type of aquasoil that releases ammonia in the early stage (it sounds like you do) just keep changing water regularly to remove it.

The assemblage of beneficial micro-organisms that can inhabit filters and substrates of aquariums is more diverse than previously thought and many can thrive at low KH and pH. Just create stable conditions and they will arrive in time. No ammonia addition required.

Would you mind posting links to the threads that would give me information that would help me?

@dw1305 is the man with the links, hopefully he will be around in the morning to supply you with plenty of reading material!

Time is not a concern to me because I enjoy just having the aquarium with plants until I know it’s safe to add life

A very sensible attitude. To be willing to show patience is half the battle.

As mentioned above you will have to add some calcium and magnesium to the naturally soft water if you want to keep snails successfully. Possibly the same for shrimp, depending on species.

 

[AlecF]

When you feel you want to add shrimps just add another month's wait, and by that time it will have cycled. As everyone says, it just takes time and happens naturally. As beginners we always feel it's a rush to get to the bit where we add living things. That time also lets you do more reading.

 

[Little]

Just to reinforce what everyone is saying….
It’s hard to get clear answers because there is a thriving industry selling aquarium products like test kits and start up products.

The truth is nature will sort itself out if you give it a little time. When your plants are growing well it means your tank is ready for livestock.
This is normally a month or so. If you have trouble, it normally means maintenance is not on point or your level of light and fertiliser is not quite right.

Here is a guide I wrote that may be useful for you: A Little Guide to Planted Aquariums - For Beginners

 

[bazz]

pH: less than 6
KH: less than 1
GH: 2

Tap water to die for.
Another option for you is to add approximately 1.25g CaSO4 and1g MgSO4 to 15l (50%) of water change water giving you 4 dGH. 0.3g KHCO3 will give you an increase of 0.5 dKH (or thereabouts) on top of your very low tap water KH, all of which is pretty much ideal for Caridina. Ramshorn snails will tolerate these conditions especially with additional Calcium (Mineral Tabs, blanched Nettle and Spinach leaves etc, (shrimp will also benefit from this)). I had one Military Helmet Snail which survived intact for over 3 1/2 years in these parameters, although I slowly lost 9 others over time.
Just another spin for you. If I had tap water like that I would not want to waste the fortune, unless of course you have your heart set hard water livestock.
Cheers!

 

[bazz]

As mentioned above, CO2 addition with a low GH/KH will cause PH swings and possibly a PH crash.

While I fully agree that low KH will cause pH swings, I'm not so sure about a pH crash or even a detrimental swing. My last (and current) aquarium ran for over 3 1/2 years with 0.3-0.5 dKH with no problems at all and other's are running at 0 dKH with CO2 and without any problems. Large frequent water changes (50%+) go hand in hand with this method. GH has little to no significant impact on pH directly.
Has anyone categorically suffered pH crash?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Welcome to UKAPS.

Tap water to die for.

Pretty much. The reason is that it is very easy <"to add compounds to water">, but very difficult to remove them.

My main question is how can I cycle my tank?

It’s hard to get clear answers because there is a thriving industry selling aquarium products like test kits and start up products.
The truth is nature will sort itself out if you give it a little time. When your plants are growing well it means your tank is ready for livestock.

If I’m not adding ammonia and letting it drop to 0 how do I know when it is cycled?

Just <"plant it and wait">, once the plants have grown in it is "cycled". Have a look at <"Using Amano Shrimps to get rid of Bio Slug Wood Snot">.

Should I do a water change to remove the ammonia that I’ve added?

Yes, you never need more ammonia (NH3) than you will have when the tank is stocked and running.

I’ve read that such a low pH can stall a cycle and stop the bacteria from forming.

Would you mind posting links to the threads that would give me information that would help me?

Linked below, but low dKH and pH isn't actually a problem.

Time is not a concern to me because I enjoy just having the aquarium with plants until I know it’s safe to add life

Time is your friend. The traditional view of cycling, that it is performed by a few specialised bacteria, that require high ammonia loadings and carbonate hardness, isn't right. It was a best guess based upon the nitrifying bacteria that could be both isolated from sewage sludge and successfully cultured in vitro, but we now know these bacteria (Nitrosomonas, Nitrobacter etc) don't occur in aquarium filters. We've talked with <"Dr Tim Hovanec">, who did some of this original research, have look at <"Dark start or straight to planting?">

The reason we know this is because scientists have isolated the genes that code for ammonia and nitrite oxidation and we've talked to some of them <"Correspondence with Dr Ryan Newton - School of Freshwater Sciences, University of Wisconsin—Milwaukee"> & <"Correspondence with the Neufeld lab. University of Waterloo">.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I’ve used SeaChem Equilibrium to buffer up my water as a result.

We have a thread <"Seachem method of potassium dosing">.

I’ve also used SeaChem Stability as a bacterial booster.

It almost certainly won't help and you definitely don't need it.

Has anyone categorically suffered pH crash?

Possibly in the past, when I didn't change any water and <"old tank syndrome"> was a thing - <"Lean dosing pros and cons">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Connswater]

If I had tap water like that

I'd be jumping for joy, which at my age is probably not advisable, but then with tap water like that, a nice restorative cup of not too strong black tea is a wonderful colour and taste. I think I would also be filling black tubs to have a go at breeding a huge range of tetras and catfish, the electricity bill might be an issue.

 

[aaron.c]

Hey! I was just about to start a thread on a very similar theme, so perhaps this is useful to people here, instead of another post on the same subject

I am in the middle of cycling my tank via a dark start method. Our tap water has a very low PH, about 6.4, both GH and KH are less than 1. They sample changes colour with the first drop of the reagent.

I am observing that with my Tropica Aquarium Soil buffering the water, that the cycle will stall within a day or so of changing the water. If I change the water and dose with bicarb and Seachem equilibrium to raise PH, GH and KH. This seems to restart the cycle until it drops again. I am led to believe that low KH will stall the cycle as the bacteria need the minerals, and the actual bacteria growth is also stripping the KH out.

This is all fine, I can deal with adding powders to get the cycle finished. My concern is that what happens when the cycle is finished? My tap water will still be super soft, I can dose with bicarb or a comparable booster, but the substrate is going to keep buffering the values down right?

I don't really want to get in a complicated dosing regime if I don't need to.

 

[CRS Fan]

I was sharing my experience with my tanks at home. I have not run into problems as a result of using these 2 products. I don’t work for SeaChem, but have used these products faithfully for many years now. I’ve had several friends run into PH crashes in high bio load tanks, and buffering was the key to not having ongoing challenges. I was sharing my experience.

Respectfully,

Stuart

 

[hypnogogia]

I have not run into problems as a result of using these 2 products.

Of course they can be used, but Equilibrium is expensive and does nothing that can't be achieved with using individual salts at a fraction of the cost. As to bacterial boosters, these will also not cause a problem, but do they add value?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

that the cycle will stall within a day or so of changing the water. If I change the water and dose with bicarb and Seachem equilibrium to raise PH, GH and KH. This seems to restart the cycle until it drops again. I am led to believe that low KH will stall the cycle as the bacteria need the minerals, and the actual bacteria growth is also stripping the KH out.

Honestly you can just ignore all of that. You don't need to change your water chemistry and "cycling" will still occur. It is the "Field of Dreams" scenario, if you have water, plants and a substrate and "they will come". If you are seeing changes in the ammonia level, it is almost certainly to do with measurement (and the pH mediated change from NH4+ to NH3) and not to do with actual levels. Have a look at <"What is the “Duckweed Index” all about?">

Dr Ryan Newton talks about about the microbes that occur in aquarium filters, and where they come from, in <"Correspondence with Dr Ryan Newton - School of Freshwater Sciences, University of Wisconsin—Milwaukee">.

All nitrifying organisms need a source of dissolved inorganic carbon, but the requirements of the COMAMMOX Nitrospira and Ammonia Oxidising Archaea (AOA) that actually occur in aquarium filters are very low.

Basically we now know that there are assemblages of nitrifying microbes in all situations where ammonia is available. This is a lake with acidic water and high ammonia levels <"Comammox Nitrospira and Ammonia-Oxidizing Archaea Are Dominant Ammonia Oxidizers in Sediments of an Acid Mine Lake Containing High Ammonium Concentrations - PMC"> & an Archaea paper <"Nitrification and beyond: metabolic versatility of ammonia oxidising archaea - The ISME Journal">

Sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) isn't ideal for a planted tank because of the sodium (Na+) ions, if you do want to add a source of dKH, potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3) would be better. You could add both dGH (calcium (Ca++)) and dKH (bi)carbonate (2HCO3-) with slow release <"Oyster Shell Chick Grit">.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I’ve had several friends run into PH crashes in high bio load tanks, and buffering was the key to not having ongoing challenges.

It is different if you don't have a reasonable biomass of plants. Plants are the thing that makes the real difference. Have a look at <"Bio Media for Planted Tanks.">.

don’t work for SeaChem, but have used these products faithfully for many years now.

It isn't SeaChem's products that I have a particular problem with, it is <"their advertising"> and the <"price gouging">.

cheers Darrel