Consistency Deficiency

[_Maq_]

I'd still be interested to read your speculations, what do you think might be causing the root issues @Hufsa is experiencing?

Generally, based on reading lots of papers, the cause is obvious.
The substrate is always suboxic or anoxic. Plants support their roots by providing oxygen through their aerenchyma. There are basically two reasons why root oxygenation may get insufficient:
(a) lowered O2 content within the water column, or
(b) strongly anoxic conditions around the rhizosphere due to excessive oxygen demand.
Oxygen demand in the substrate is mainly given by the content of organic matter, secondarily by reduced species of N [NH3], Mn [Mn2+], Fe [Fe2+], and S [HS-, H2S].
That's theory. But I don't know what exactly is at play in Hufsa's tank. I'm using similar soft sand, no burrowing snails, and my observations are different: Yes, my Crypts and Buces are in poor state, staying very small, yes, their roots are weaker than expected for Crypts, but no, the roots remain healthy, splendidly white. I've got no answers neither for me nor for Hufsa.

 

[_Maq_]

The rotted bits smelled foul when I took it out of the tank and my nose wasnt even that close.
Ive never experienced roots this black before

Obviously, the roots are struggling in an environment containing too much reduced sulfur - sulfides, incl. highly toxic hydrogen sulfide. The black coating may be iron sulfide, harmless in itself but the sign of H2S presence. (In healthy environment, the root coating should be brown, formed by iron (hydr)oxides and phosphates.)
As a subsidiary measure, I would suggest:
(a) avoiding reduced nitrogen (urea, ammonium) in ferts,
(b) avoiding sulfates in ferts, i.e. replacing MgSO4 with MgCl2 (and CaSO4 with CaCl2).
Reducing reduced nitrogen should lead to reduced nitrification - a major sink of oxygen in upper parts of the substrate. This oxygen should get available for oxidizing reduced sulfur. In short, you can increase redox in your substrate, or - in other words - reduce the oxygen deficit in the substrate. This could possibly help.

 

[Hufsa]

Sorry, no, I did mean what you thought the cause of the rotting roots was?

Ah sorry about the misunderstanding 😊

Are you thinking the sand is compacting too much or something else?

I think (but I dont know for sure) that the sand snails both made sure the sand didn't get too compacted, and that they slowly cycled nutrients from the water column down into the sand.
Basically they slowly diffused both new water, oxygen and all that stuff into the deeper parts of the sand, that normally would not see much "refreshing" because of the fine grain size.
I think the sand snails effect on the function of my sand might have been greater than the average tank because of the very fine grain size (0.1-0.5mm).
I suspect they might not be as critical to have if one has slightly coarser grain sand. (Perhaps somewhere above 0.4mm but thats pure speculation).
I have always had sand snails so I have never had a problem growing plants in sand. But still a lot of people maintain that plants dont grow well in sand.
Perhaps the snails could be a part of this, why it works in some cases and doesnt work in others?

Is this different sand to when you referenced previous 'healthy' roots?

For the most part its the same sand. When I set up the tank years ago I used one with a 0.2–0.7mm grain, I checked the journal just now and I switched to the finest sand of 0.1-0.5mm in Feb 2021 (because the old sand had retained medication in it that was killing new snails). So the current sand has been running for years without any significant problem.

How deep is the sand?

I just checked the sand where the crypt spiralis red came out, its 7 cm to the bottom, which is not particularly deep I feel. The rotting of the roots doesnt seem limited to the deepest parts of the sand, for example the small crypts I pulled up had 80% rotted root mass, but they were only about 2 cm into the sand in total. If Maq is right (referring to previous discussion about circulation in substrates) then in my substrate the "naturally" oxygenated layer may be just milimeters thick, I think we mostly agreed it would be somewhere less than 10mm in total. By "naturally" oxygenated I mean without the aid of sand snails or other burrowing creatures. The sand snails went much deeper than 10mm, and I had hundreds of them.

Im glad you asked about this, because it made me remember something from Christel Kasselmann's book (if anyone reading this hasnt purchased it yet, you really should. I keep coming back to it for new insights).
Im reluctant to share too much from the book because I think we need to financially support the author if we enjoy this information.
But she says the size of the grains and pore volume plays an important role in the aeration and water circulation within the soil.
"A large pore volume guarantees good aeration which in turn is also supported by living organisms existing within the soil, for example, dog periwinkles in aquariums."
Ive tried googling dog periwinkles and I couldnt quite figure out what this means, but periwinkle is a type of snail, so im assuming its referring to some kind of snail.
I also looked up pore volume to be sure I understood it correctly, it seems to be a term related to Porosity. For simplicity's sake im gonna think of it as the space between the grains.

Generally, based on reading lots of papers, the cause is obvious.
The substrate is always suboxic or anoxic. Plants support their roots by providing oxygen through their aerenchyma.
... I'm using similar soft sand, no burrowing snails, and my observations are different: Yes, my Crypts and Buces are in poor state, staying very small, yes, their roots are weaker than expected for Crypts, but no, the roots remain healthy, splendidly white. I've got no answers neither for me nor for Hufsa.

She says "conditions in natural locations can be transferred only in a limited way to the aquarium..".
In aquariums there is a much lower ratio of water to substrate, and "there are far fewer soil organisms in the aquarium providing good aeration".
She also mentions sufficient current lacking in the substrate, its not entirely clear to me what kind of current we are talking about there.
You should take note of this @_Maq_ , on the topic of anaerobic soils, she says amongst other things;
"It has to be emphatically stressed that most aquatic plants cannot prosper in such an extreme milieu".
I think your crypts and buces are trying to tell you something.

There is more in the book, on substrate makeup, a little bit on snails, and more on other aspects, but I really encourage you all to purchase the book and read it yourself

Can you not Chuck in some Malaysian trumpet snails for the time being if it’s a wait for the other species? They do a great job at turning everything over and keeping stuff clean.

I could, there are a few reasons I havent though. The current sand has been subjected to a few treatments with "No Planaria". This stuff is one of the medications I had used years before, that resulted in the old sand being uninhabitable for snails well beyond the treatment periods. I ended up replacing the old sand entirely and the problem with snail survival was immediately fixed. I dont know for sure that "No Planaria" was the only cause of this, but it was one of the medications used.
I am therefore a little leery of the current sand, and I am planning to add just two or three sand snails to the main tank to begin with, to see if they are still able to live in it. If they arent then I will need to replace the sand regardless of plant roots.
Im super sick and tired of dealing with sickness and medications in the main tank and all its various really annoying and/or costly effects, which is why the new livestock additions are observing strict quarantine in the kitchen, so that I never have to repeat all of this with the main tank again, because its getting a bit old at this point
Another reason which is more cosmetic is that it would be very hard to remove all the regular malaysian snails once I get "the fancy kind", and I would prefer to have just the Thiara snails in there 😅

 

[Wookii]

Ah sorry about the misunderstanding 😊

I think (but I dont know for sure) that the sand snails both made sure the sand didn't get too compacted, and that they slowly cycled nutrients from the water column down into the sand.
Basically they slowly diffused both new water, oxygen and all that stuff into the deeper parts of the sand, that normally would not see much "refreshing" because of the fine grain size.
I think the sand snails effect on the function of my sand might have been greater than the average tank because of the very fine grain size (0.1-0.5mm).
I suspect they might not be as critical to have if one has slightly coarser grain sand. (Perhaps somewhere above 0.4mm but thats pure speculation).
I have always had sand snails so I have never had a problem growing plants in sand. But still a lot of people maintain that plants dont grow well in sand.
Perhaps the snails could be a part of this, why it works in some cases and doesnt work in others?


For the most part its the same sand. When I set up the tank years ago I used one with a 0.2–0.7mm grain, I checked the journal just now and I switched to the finest sand of 0.1-0.5mm in Feb 2021 (because the old sand had retained medication in it that was killing new snails). So the current sand has been running for years without any significant problem.


I just checked the sand where the crypt spiralis red came out, its 7 cm to the bottom, which is not particularly deep I feel. The rotting of the roots doesnt seem limited to the deepest parts of the sand, for example the small crypts I pulled up had 80% rotted root mass, but they were only about 2 cm into the sand in total. If Maq is right (referring to previous discussion about circulation in substrates) then in my substrate the "naturally" oxygenated layer may be just milimeters thick, I think we mostly agreed it would be somewhere less than 10mm in total. By "naturally" oxygenated I mean without the aid of sand snails or other burrowing creatures. The sand snails went much deeper than 10mm, and I had hundreds of them.

Im glad you asked about this, because it made me remember something from Christel Kasselmann's book (if anyone reading this hasnt purchased it yet, you really should. I keep coming back to it for new insights).
Im reluctant to share too much from the book because I think we need to financially support the author if we enjoy this information.
But she says the size of the grains and pore volume plays an important role in the aeration and water circulation within the soil.
"A large pore volume guarantees good aeration which in turn is also supported by living organisms existing within the soil, for example, dog periwinkles in aquariums."
Ive tried googling dog periwinkles and I couldnt quite figure out what this means, but periwinkle is a type of snail, so im assuming its referring to some kind of snail.
I also looked up pore volume to be sure I understood it correctly, it seems to be a term related to Porosity. For simplicity's sake im gonna think of it as the space between the grains.


She says "conditions in natural locations can be transferred only in a limited way to the aquarium..".
In aquariums there is a much lower ratio of water to substrate, and "there are far fewer soil organisms in the aquarium providing good aeration".
She also mentions sufficient current lacking in the substrate, its not entirely clear to me what kind of current we are talking about there.
You should take note of this @_Maq_ , on the topic of anaerobic soils, she says amongst other things;
"It has to be emphatically stressed that most aquatic plants cannot prosper in such an extreme milieu".
I think your crypts and buces are trying to tell you something.

There is more in the book, on substrate makeup, a little bit on snails, and more on other aspects, but I really encourage you all to purchase the book and read it yourself


I could, there are a few reasons I havent though. The current sand has been subjected to a few treatments with "No Planaria". This stuff is one of the medications I had used years before, that resulted in the old sand being uninhabitable for snails well beyond the treatment periods. I ended up replacing the old sand entirely and the problem with snail survival was immediately fixed. I dont know for sure that "No Planaria" was the only cause of this, but it was one of the medications used.
I am therefore a little leery of the current sand, and I am planning to add just two or three sand snails to the main tank to begin with, to see if they are still able to live in it. If they arent then I will need to replace the sand regardless of plant roots.
Im super sick and tired of dealing with sickness and medications in the main tank and all its various really annoying and/or costly effects, which is why the new livestock additions are observing strict quarantine in the kitchen, so that I never have to repeat all of this with the main tank again, because its getting a bit old at this point
Another reason which is more cosmetic is that it would be very hard to remove all the regular malaysian snails once I get "the fancy kind", and I would prefer to have just the Thiara snails in there 😅

Hmm, its a bit of a quandary. No Planaria is the best way of getting rid of Planaria which seem to be an infrequent visitor in my tanks, yet it seems some sort of sand burrowing snail might be the only way to keep the substrate healthy when using finer sand. eSHa NDX might be an alternative, but I can't find a definitive answer if its definitely safe for burrowing snails.

To clarify my own interest in this is that I experienced something similar when I broke down my last tank before we moved house. In the centre of the sand area was a black slightly stinky patch below the surface, and some of the crypts had black mushy roots as you have described. As I'm about to set up a new tank with a 60-70mm deep sand layer, I'm keen to avoid the same thing.

 

[Hufsa]

Hmm, its a bit of a quandary. No Planaria is the best way of getting rid of Planaria which seem to be an infrequent visitor in my tanks, yet it seems some sort of sand burrowing snail might be the only way to keep the substrate healthy when using finer sand. eSHa NDX might be an alternative, but I can't find a definitive answer if its definitely safe for burrowing snails.

Ive dosed Levamisole (active ingredient of Ndx) and Praziquantel as a combo on multiple occasions over the years.
Im 80% sure my small snails did fine with these treatments, I think I would remember if they all died off every time (but I will look into my old notebooks further to check for you). The snail issue with Levamisole appears to be on big pet snails like elephant, apple and nerite snails. "Pest" snails and MTS might be fine. Fenbendazole and Flubendazole will kill most snails though.
The reason I had to dose "No Planaria" this last time was because I had a strain of Scutariella that appeared resistant to Prazi.

Why are the planaria reappearing in your tank though? Are they getting reintroduced through new additions or your other tanks, or is your medication not actually killing them all?

To clarify my own interest in this is that I experienced something similar when I broke down my last tank before we moved house. In the centre of the sand area was a black slightly stinky patch below the surface, and some of the crypts had black mushy roots as you have described.

Oh thats interesting 🤔 I seem to remember you use "silver sand" correct? It is very fine grain sand indeed..

As I'm about to set up a new tank with a 60-70mm deep sand layer, I'm keen to avoid the same thing.

If I were you and I didn't want to wait for the conclusion to the "sand saga" then id go for some coarser sand. Filter sand for instance frequently comes in 0.4-0.8mm grade which should be a better option for plant growth while still being ok for livestock.

 

[Wookii]

Why are the planaria reappearing in your tank though? Are they getting reintroduced through new additions or your other tanks, or is your medication not actually killing them all?

Not sure - possibly because I was using Panacur before, as a single dose, which doesn't seem quite as effective as the Genchem No Planaria triple dose I've used recently, so maybe I wasn't killing 100% of them - I guess only one individual needs to make it. Also possibly carelessness on my part transferring plants between treated and untreated tanks, or possibly also from new plants from external sources. Take your pick, but all ultimately user error! 😅😂

Oh thats interesting 🤔 I seem to remember you use "silver sand" correct? It is very fine grain sand indeed..

Yep, Unipac Silver sand, which is supposed to be 0.3-0.4mm.

If I were you and I didn't want to wait for the conclusion to the "sand saga" then id go for some coarser sand. Filter sand for instance frequently comes in 0.4-0.8mm grade which should be a better option for plant growth while still being ok for livestock.

The thing is, aesthetically I don't really like the coarser sands - I have some Unipac Aquarium Silica sand in my holding tank, which is coarser at 0.8-1.0mm - though only as a thin decorative layer, not plantable depth, and it just doesn't look nearly as good.

Also, I already have 6 x 20Kg bags of the chosen sand sitting in the garage, which is the Hugo Kamashi Natural Sand, acquired with a large special offer discount. It's not quite as fine as the Silver sand, but still a lot finer than the Silica sand.

I think burrowing snails and no longer using the No Planaria are going to have to be part of my plan, and I'll play it by ear. Interestingly though, Ramshorns seem to be largely unaffected by the No Planaria, so maybe there is a burrowing snail that is resistant too?

 

[_Maq_]

You should take note of this @_Maq_ , on the topic of anaerobic soils, she says amongst other things;
"It has to be emphatically stressed that most aquatic plants cannot prosper in such an extreme milieu".
I think your crypts and buces are trying to tell you something.

Ms. Kasselmann's book seems too expensive to me, though I'd like to read it. Does it exist in pdf form? (Much preferred because I don't have to wear glasses.😀)
Well, the issue of an/aerobiosis of the substrate seems to be ... unresolved, let's say? I don't agree with your quotations from K.

Argument 1: One of the distinct, never missing features of water/wetland plants - which is at the same time completely missing in terrestrial plants - is aerenchyma. Why do water/wetland plants need to push oxygen to their roots if anoxic/suboxic conditions present "an extreme milieu"? Doesn't the presence of aerenchyma suggest that such conditions are, in fact, a norm?

Argument 2: The topic of porosity is misleading because it relates to flowing water. Generally, there is no flow in the sediment. A mass flow - unlike diffusion - requires an external force. In most cases, that force is gravitation. What is forcing porewater to move, and in which direction? Water above, water below, impermeable bottom and sides of the tank... why and where to move? That's for water, but not for dissolved species, because they move following concentration gradient. As long as there's more oxygen in the water column than in the substrate, oxygen is diffusing downward. Not flowing! Diffusing. How deep? Well, that depends on the number of little creatures who want to breathe oxygen. Pore throat radius plays a role, but by orders of magnitude different from the one when we speak about mass flow.

Argument 3: The mass flow of any liquid is hindered by viscosity. Denser liquids require more force to move at the same speed - compare water and honey, par example. When the water flows above a solid, let's say glass bottom of an aquarium, so called diffusion boundary layer appears. Imagine the water molecules like cubes. They don't move relative to one another, there's no friction among them. But at the bottom, their movement is hindered by the solid matter of the bottom. The lowest layer of cubes hardly moves. The next layer is hindered by the lower layer, but a bit less, because the lower layer is a bit moving, albeit slowly. And so on and so on. Diffusion boundary layer (DBL) refers to zone, where diffusive move in vertical direction is faster than mass flow in horizontal direction. Upon normal conditions - water flowing by centimeters per second - DBL is roughly 0.5 millimeter thick. Mind you - it's above the bottom, above the sediment!
Of course, if there's a sand or gravel instead of glass bottom there, turbulent microflows appear. These do not change the situation substantially, they only make the DBL uneven - higher or lower, thicker or thinner. The principle remains the same - the only force making mass move beneath the diffusion boundary layer is diffusion.

😎

 

[Hufsa]

Based on my experience with my Czech colleagues, I take for granted that most of you will not believe me and keep on fancying how "oxygenated" their substrate is. The more so that respected experts like Ms. Kasselmann support such a stance. Well, it's up to you. Our hobby shall survive in any case.😎

I like your whole post except this last bit, it is unnecessary of you to include it even if you think so silently.
As for Kasselmann, if nothing else then right now it looks like she grows better cryptocorynes than both of us, so I think it would be wise to not dismiss her so quickly, eh? 😉
Supported by our understanding of science or not, sometimes things dont fit together in real life the way we expect them to based on theory. Im not saying the science is wrong, but us humans are flawed creatures and frequently misinterpret or miss aspects that contribute to the very complex total picture we are seeing. In such cases isnt it smarter to look to someone who has a lot of practical experience and success with the thing we are trying to achieve? (Like improved growth of crypts).
You sit on a fairly high horse Maq, but if you truly want to do better with crypts for instance, might it not be more productive to open your mind to new aspects and information, rather than cling to the methods you currently use, that will never give new results if you never change any of the variables?

In the book, measurements of oxygenation in the native substrates are written about. I think you would be interested in it 🙂

 

[LondonDragon]

My best guess right now for causes of my BBA is fluctuations in flow, CO2 and organic waste.
I hope my understanding of BBA will expand in the future if/when I can get to a point where it is fairly minimal. Long time readers of the journal will know ive had BBA and non-slimy green thread algae as constant companions even in low tech.

I went into a 8-10 week period of my CO2 run out, did not realize my fert bottle had emptied for some time, and down to water changes once every 2-3 weeks rather than weekly, and had BBA for the first time in 3 years!

 

[_Maq_]

she grows better cryptocorynes than both of us

In terms of redox potential, +100 mV is considered a value where hardly any oxygen is present. Still, a positive number.
I think the difference is within the suboxic/anoxic range. Let's say, if in a rhizosphere of a given Cryptocoryne the redox is 0 mV, there's no oxygen there, but relatively few oxygen is enough to keep the roots and their rhizosphere healthy. But if the redox decreases to -300 mV, not only reduced nitrogen, manganese and iron are there, but also reduced sulfur (sulfides) - and that's very bad. Given plant gets unable to press enough oxygen through aerenchyma to protect its roots and they blacken and die-off.

I'm trying to explain that I do not dismiss in the least the possibility that my/our problems with Crypts have something to do with the redox status of our substrates. Yet it would be wrong to reduce the question to simple "oxygenated/not oxygenated".

In fact, as you may recall, my sand has created a crust, probably stuck by biofilm, and I seriously consider what to do about it and what does it mean. The question of my dwarfed Crypts may or may not relate to that. Please, have a look at my Crypts in "experiment 23b": There's different sand there, bigger grains (1.4-2.0 mm), and look what my Crypts look like there, no matter how I feed them. They have been there more than half a year and don't grow bigger no matter what. Adding to that, I had the same difficulties with Crypts and Buces for years - upon very different conditions, in much coarser substrates, some of them fashionable "porous" ones, etc. It's a real mystery, that.

 

[_Maq_]

Any news, @Hufsa ? How's your new chapter in life going? Hope your health is fine?

if you truly want to do better with crypts for instance, might it not be more productive to open your mind to new aspects and information, rather than cling to the methods you currently use, that will never give new results if you never change any of the variables?

I've ordered burrowing snails - Melanoides tuberculatus. Eager to see if THIS would make a difference.

 

[Hufsa]

Any news, @Hufsa ? How's your new chapter in life going? Hope your health is fine?

All is well 😁 Been slowly working on reactor and plumbing preparation, and had some time off from aquarium for easter 😊
I have spent most of that time thinking about sand, but eh you cant win em all 😉

I've ordered burrowing snails - Melanoides tuberculatus. Eager to see if THIS would make a difference.

Nice! Im really looking forward to hearing if they make a difference for you! I trawled through some old posts on the norwegian forum and the posts all reference needing sand snails in fine sand if you want more than a centimeter or two of sand thickness.

Some of the posts also seem to indicate that dense sand will appear to be good on its own for a while, but then it will take a turn and the plants will start to struggle more and more. I thought that was interesting.

 

[_Maq_]

dense sand will appear to be good on its own for a while, but then it will take a turn and the plants will start to struggle more and more

It is interesting, indeed.
(I'm planning two more tanks, with sandy substrate again, but the size of grains will be definitely larger than 1.0 mm. In summer, perhaps...)

 

[Hufsa]

The thing is, aesthetically I don't really like the coarser sands - I have some Unipac Aquarium Silica sand in my holding tank, which is coarser at 0.8-1.0mm - though only as a thin decorative layer, not plantable depth, and it just doesn't look nearly as good.

Also, I already have 6 x 20Kg bags of the chosen sand sitting in the garage, which is the Hugo Kamashi Natural Sand, acquired with a large special offer discount. It's not quite as fine as the Silver sand, but still a lot finer than the Silica sand.

I think I started writing a whole big reply to this (you inadvertently opened a can of worms with sand aesthetics 😅) but I got distracted by something (probably a squirrel) and never finished the reply. Cant find the text now, probably for the best 🤷‍♀️
In short the look of coarser sands are a big issue for me as well. Its really hard to go back once you get used to the smooth color of very fine sand.

For example this is the same sand type as my current sand, but a coarser grade (0.7-1.2).
I dont like the look at all, and I also found it much less nice to plant into, it didnt grip as well and felt more damaging to the plant.

I think burrowing snails and no longer using the No Planaria are going to have to be part of my plan, and I'll play it by ear. Interestingly though, Ramshorns seem to be largely unaffected by the No Planaria, so maybe there is a burrowing snail that is resistant too?

I think burrowing snails are gonna be the real MVP for my tank as well, I just dont see any way I will be able to have ~1.0 mm grain sand. This fine sand I have worked ok before, so technically it should be okay again if I just get the snail population back in. Going to a slightly coarser grain size would mostly be to play it a bit safer and possibly to make the rooted plants do better than they were before.
I suspect the bougie Thiara snails are more sensitive than regular malaysian trumpet snails, based on their reactions to stuff in my tank. But I dont have any MTS or plans to test that further.


Ive been trying to find a good slightly coarser replacement sand, its been quite difficult on account of how difficult I am as a person apparently 😵
I thought I needed to find a quartz/silica sand with a very minimal amount of colored stones to minimize the speckled look of coarser grains.
But when I did find such a sand it turns out that will look almost pure white under bright tank lights, and might not be what I wanted after all



Ive sampled a few different glacier/lake/river sands from around the area and found a pretty nice warm-brown hued river sand.
Its not exactly uniform in color but the amount of colored stones is high enough that it mellows out the speckled look overall, I think my eyes could get used to it.
A bonus of using a "wild caught" sand like this would be access to perfectly matching decorative stones and scatter gravel to my hearts content 🤭
I need to perform some testing on its chemical stability first to make sure it doesnt contain much soluble minerals though.



My tank continues running on the Tropica dose. The frogbit is decently happy, not turning out pale new leaves but the old leaves are deteriorating pretty rapidly. It might be grabbing most of the iron and manganese though, because the other plants in the tank does not share its feelings towards Tropica and they are looking much more pale.
The Pogostemon helferi is growing new pale leaves and the Tonina has turned some of its tips 90 degrees sideways in displeasure.
The low tech tank is much the same, the frogbit there doesnt have new pale leaves, but the other plants (that are also growing emersed) look pale, especially the Tonina which is very pale in the tips.
Im not going to discontinue the fertilizer quite yet, but im wondering if I need to supplement it with something like a Fe&Mn mixture to see if things could be improved a bit.
Ill see about grabbing some plant pics soon 😊

 

[xZaiox]

My tank continues running on the Tropica dose. The frogbit is decently happy, not turning out pale new leaves but the old leaves are deteriorating pretty rapidly. It might be grabbing most of the iron and manganese though, because the other plants in the tank does not share its feelings towards Tropica and they are looking much more pale.

Ehhh, this was my experience with Tropica's ferts as well. I wanted it to work, but the chlorosis became very noticeably worse, and quite quickly too. It makes me wonder if maybe their chelator of HEEDTA is not as suitable for tanks with higher pH? Based on how little @plantnoobdude managed to get away with dosing his low pH lean tanks, I would imagine that Tropica would work very very well for him. I unfortunately just didn't have the same experience.

I swapped back to dosing iron in EDDHSA and my plants are happier again now, although not perfect yet.

 

[_Maq_]

A bonus of using a "wild caught" sand like this would be access to perfectly matching decorative stones and scatter gravel to my hearts content

THAT. That is what I'm planning to do for my next tank - a tank for display, no experiments I promise

I need to perform some testing on its chemical stability first to make sure it doesnt contain much soluble minerals though.

Looks like rich in iron, maybe manganese.

 

[Hufsa]

Ehhh, this was my experience with Tropica's ferts as well. I wanted it to work, but the chlorosis became very noticeably worse, and quite quickly too. It makes me wonder if maybe their chelator of HEEDTA is not as suitable for tanks with higher pH? Based on how little @plantnoobdude managed to get away with dosing his low pH lean tanks, I would imagine that Tropica would work very very well for him. I unfortunately just didn't have the same experience.

I swapped back to dosing iron in EDDHSA and my plants are happier again now, although not perfect yet.

Yeah to be honest so far I dont understand why Tropica ferts are held in such unusually high esteem by some. They dont seem to work "out of the box" in nearly enough tanks to me 😕
Right now I dont want to change it because of the convenience factor, but I do need to do something about the chlorosis sooner rather than later.

THAT. That is what I'm planning to do for my next tank - a tank for display, no experiments I promise

I would love to see your vision of ideal beauty Maq 😉
We shall critique it with the same gentle silk-like touch you use to critique everyone elses taste with 😇

Looks like rich in iron, maybe manganese.

The brown hue gives me pause as well, unless you are primarily looking at the more glimmery pieces?
It will need extensive testing for sure, I am especially interested to see how it handles acid.

But my energy is a bit limited again and I need to focus on the two areas my tank needs the most, which is neither sand nor ferts right now.

The most pressing issue right now is actually the flow, although the CO2 injection is a close second. The Ultramax canister continues getting more and more pitiful, spitting out more bubbles each day. I dont think its pushing nearly as much flow through as it used to do, so the bottom spray bar is not driving the flow around the tank like it should. I can tell that the back areas of the tank are not getting as much flow as they are supposed to have, theres a collection of detritus and a general lack of current apparent when I have my hands in there.
Im gonna redo the plumbing so that the Overcompensator-5000 drives both spray bars, and then the Ultramax can be dealt with later. (I would prefer to set fire to it and throw it out the window but im open to suggestions).
Im seizing the opportunity to finally FINALLY get rid of the grey pipes in the tank, but of course life is always trying to throw obstacles my way. The black replacement pipes arrived, they look good.
Then I got stuck on the black fittings. They are too tight, so the pipes cant be inserted all the way. Ive tried heating them up with a heat gun, but im experiencing a horizontal hairline crack in every piece I try to heat.
Im not sure but perhaps they are being heated up too quickly. Im contemplating prebaking the pieces lightly in the oven to make sure the core of the plastic is evenly warmed before heating the rest with the heat gun. I hope the fumes from the plastic will melt my brain a bit and ease my passage through this frustrating world.
The hairline cracks are quite faint and cant be pulled apart by hand, im not sure if they hold water 100%, the pieces I need at the moment will be submerged, but I would greatly prefer not to permanently ruin all these black fittings because of poor technique or something like that.
Im gonna try to get some more progress on it today, but when youre already a bit tired its easy to get discouraged when things arent working.

 

[Courtneybst]

Yeah to be honest so far I dont understand why Tropica ferts are held in such unusually high esteem by some. They dont seem to work "out of the box" in nearly enough tanks to me 😕
Right now I dont want to change it because of the convenience factor, but I do need to do something about the chlorosis sooner rather than later.

I'm intrigued about what your potential solutions are. Will you try something else or alter your dosage?

I'm using Tropica Specialised in one of my tanks for the first time (first time in freshwater anyway), and I'm having lackluster plant growth/health. Even on floating plants...

Could be just coincidence and something else is at play, but I couldn't help being intrigued that you are also having troubles.

 

[Hufsa]

I'm intrigued about what your potential solutions are. Will you try something else or alter your dosage?

Off the cuff plan: Spike Fe and Mn dosing with a separate solution (or two). Chelated might be best I think.

If that doesnt do it then its back to custom ferts for me probably, I think one of my issues with premade ferts is that few of them contain serious iron chelates, at least I had trouble finding any with DTPA when I looked a while back.

Im a bit reluctant to increase the dosage overall.
The green thread algae has not been deterred by lean Tropica dosing, for whatever thats worth. (Im not basing my fertilizer addition around algae, but I think some might still be curious about the status of this).
The quickly fading old leaves of the frogbit could indicate support of an increase, but im concerned about how "hot" the Tropica nitrogen source is.
I overdosed the quarantine tank (before fish arrived) and accidentally created a pretty significant nitrite spike. In other words it was enough to overwhelm the matured sand, mature filter media and masses of plants I had in the tank. Luckily I caught this in time, and I havent had any troubles since. But the quarantine tank is now only getting one pump every other day. Not ideal for the plants in there having issues, but im not risking a spike for the fish, plants be damned. Having a less hot fertilizer to increase the dose in there would be nice.

Im not sure a general increase will be enough to overcome iron/manganese issues fully either way.

I'm using Tropica Specialised in one of my tanks for the first time (first time in freshwater anyway), and I'm having lackluster plant growth/health. Even on floating plants...

Can you share pics of the lackluster-ness?

 

[xZaiox]

I overdosed the quarantine tank (before fish arrived) and accidentally created a pretty significant nitrite spike. In other words it was enough to overwhelm the matured sand, mature filter media and masses of plants I had in the tank.

I would hypothesise that this wouldn't be a consistent effect. If you have a low stocking, or otherwise low amount of ammonia production in the tank, then the bacterial load won't be particularly high, so sudden spikes in ammonia will take the bacteria a little while to catch up, but once their levels have proliferated, they should be able to handle the excess on the regular.

I've overdosed Tropica's ammonium based fert in my tank with no issues, but my tank is fairly heavily stocked with fish already, so I'm guessing that the bacteria in my tank is just in greater numbers already. That being said, it also seems perhaps unnecessary to dose more if the plants aren't consuming it in time...