Consistency Deficiency

[John q]

4-4,5 hours ramp up time for a 250 liter tank 🤔 Is that "allowed"?

Mine takes 4hrs which probably isn't ideal but if that's what it takes, then that's what it takes.

I'm going to write "takes" just so I can include a post with 5 takes in it 🙄

 

[Garuf]

Kedegang is a meh buce until it settles in and has had 6 or so months, then it seems to glow with the surface shine.

 

[Hufsa]

Im monitoring the drop checker again today and performing a poor mans ph profile, it looks like my injection rate may not suck as much as I was led to believe by the drop checker.
I havent measured the offgassed tank water yet, but tank water before CO2 came on was 6.9, and one hour later it looks to have dropped to about 6.65.
Im using the JBL pH Test 6.0-7.6, it only has color reference dots for .2 increments but I often find the color sits between, or in the case below, more like a quarter below halfway.
Its a colorimetric test, so there is some guesstimation involved, but I think im pretty good at it differentiating the colors, maybe its because I am a woman 😉
I just want to get a feel / idea of how fast its dropping. The roughest outline of the ph curve. So dont come for me 😁

 

[Hufsa]

Work in progress


Looks like it gets most of the drop done in ~ 3 hours

 

[KirstyF]

Been a busy week so just having a catch up here. That’s a monster plant out you’ve got going on. Excited to see how they all go😊

4-4,5 hours ramp up time for a 250 liter tank 🤔 Is that "allowed"?
@KirstyF what do you have?

I’ve got mine down to 3hrs before lights ramp up starts, 3.5hrs before full lights but I am injecting ‘all the bubbles’ (I can’t count them) through 2 needle valves and 2 Yidao reactors. Using IRO 1kg of gas pw to maintain a 0.9 - 1ph drop throughout photoperiod. I have a lot of surface agitation mind, so off-gassing is probably fairly high.

Wouldn’t worry about the long Co2 ramp up time. As @johnq said, if that’s what it takes takes takes!!

The PH pen is IMO a good buy though (once your wallet recovers from ur plant splurge) It will really help to get your set-up optimal and even when not running a full ph profile, I still tend to pop the probe in for a quick check probably 3 or 4 times on a weekend day. Not sure I really need to, but it takes seconds to do and gives my OCD some comfort. 😂

Good luck with all your preciousness’s.

 

[Hufsa]

Picture spam, hopefully you guys will let me know if it becomes too much 😁



The Pangio doriae is probably just going to be called Silver Noodle. He has found himself a lair under this shell with Fissidens fontanus. Now that there is no mesh there, it is a much better place to hang out His nose barbels are very peculiar, they are broad and white colored at the base, I cant tell from the limited pictures online if its supposed to be that way or not. He seems perky so I think it might be ok.


Gratuitous shot of two Otocinclus cocama eating breakfast, on the menu today were bits of TA Aquaculture Brine shrimp sticks.


FTS, I hacked back the Hygrophila polysperma a bit as the flow was causing it to splay out over its baby neighbors and shading like I thought it might.
Stuffed the cuttings into the foreground. #aquascaping
Its already getting pretty rampant, since I turned the gas on it has put out a ton of sideshoots and they're all growing like mad


Ammannia pedicellata 'Golden' - a minute by minute documentary Will it grow? Will it spontaneously combust, burning down the entire building? Stay tuned to find out 😉

 

[Hufsa]

Half the result of todays effort, im not quite done with the photo series of the drop checker, it has yet to return to neutral.
From the "data" I have so far it appears it could be up to 3 hours behind the actual ph curve 😳



Based on my entirely-yeehaw-measurements, it looks like I might be getting the drop in by around 3 hours. But, since liquid tests are pretty inaccurate compared to a ph meter, I will keep it at 4 hours until I can repeat the profile using proper tools.
The first part of the photoperiod is such a critical time for the plants, so I would rather start a bit too early than a bit too late.
It looks like my CO2 off-gasses fairly rapidly once my gas shuts off, so I will shorten the interval between that and the lights ramping down to 1 hour instead of 2.
I found the 6.3, 6.2, 6.3 etc measurement pattern amusing, I have no idea why it came out like that, but given the nature of the testing a 0.1 difference can probably be entirely disregarded.

PS: Dont laugh at my graph I tried my best

 

[Hufsa]

Drop checker photoseries. Im unsure if this has any use, but I took the photos so I will post them here for my records anyway.
I need to keep in mind that the drop checker does not respond "linearly", and some say it responds faster to increases than decreases. It does appear to be the case based on the pictures.



I let my tank water sit out in a shallow container for 24 hours and measured it, but I made a mistake because it will have been a bit colder than my aquarium. The ph read 7.2, which would indicate a 1 point drop, which should not be the case. Does anyone have a suggestion to how I can ensure the sample stays the same temperature? Float it in the tank maybe? But how to keep it from tipping over..?

 

[Wookii]

Drop checker photoseries. Im unsure if this has any use, but I took the photos so I will post them here for my records anyway.
I need to keep in mind that the drop checker does not respond "linearly", and some say it responds faster to increases than decreases. It does appear to be the case based on the pictures.

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I let my tank water sit out in a shallow container for 24 hours and measured it, but I made a mistake because it will have been a bit colder than my aquarium. The ph read 7.2, which would indicate a 1 point drop, which should not be the case. Does anyone have a suggestion to how I can ensure the sample stays the same temperature? Float it in the tank maybe? But how to keep it from tipping over..?

You’ve got too little solution in that drop checker @Hufsa - the less you put in it, the larger the air gap, and the longer it will take to react.

 

[Hufsa]

You’ve got too little solution in that drop checker @Hufsa - the less you put in it, the larger the air gap, and the longer it will take to react.

Ah! Is that how it works?

I think I heard decreasing the amount of fluid in the drop checker can make it respond a bit faster, so I will try emptying out about half and see what happens, unless anyone objects.

I wrote this a few posts ago and didnt hear any protests, so I went for it.
So the actual like distance the gas has to travel to get from one surface to the other matters the most?
I could have sworn ive seen people say not to overfill the drop checkers, especially those classic round glass ones. I thought that made the surface area to volume ratio poorer, and therefore made the gas exchange + color change slower.

I thought this first drop checker has the right amount of fluid, the liquid sits at the widest part of the bubble so the surface is fairly large.


However I have seen some who fill them up like this:

I thought this one was wrong, but technically it has a shorter distance from surface to surface?

I dont mean to be argumentative, I just really like understanding how things work

 

[Wookii]

I wrote this a few posts ago and didnt hear any protests, so I went for it.

Sorry, I missed that one.

So the actual like distance the gas has to travel to get from one surface to the other matters the most?

No, it’s not the distance, it’s the volume. Basically what happens is the CO2 off gasses from the tank water, and into the air space in the drop checker. It keeps doing that until the amount of CO2 in the airspace is at an equilibrium level with the tank water.

As the CO2 levels build up in the airspace, some is absorbed into the indicator solution until that too contains a level of CO2 that is in equilibrium with the airspace. The CO2 solution being a pH indicator fluid then changes colour as the pH drops from the resulting CO2 content.

As such, the larger the air gap (volume of air) in the drop checker, the longer it takes to reach CO2 equilibrium with the tank water, and the longer the indicator solution will take to change colour.

I could have sworn ive seen people say not to overfill the drop checkers

That might apply to those glass ones, as you say, to maximise surface area. But that’s why I don’t think they are very good, because the air gap is unnecessarily large - especially when you consider that CO2 is heavier than air and so has to work it’s way right around the scroll of glass.

The ideal ofcourse would be a gas permeable membrane, which would give the fastest reaction time, but we don’t have that yet. The JBL ones you have, can have a really small air-gap, for the fastest possible reaction time, and a white background for much easier colour reading than glass ones.

 

[Hufsa]

I see, thanks for that explanation, Im with you now
So would the ideal drop checker (aside from membrane ones) have a very small air gap volume AND a fairly small liquid volume? Because of this:

As the CO2 levels build up in the airspace, some is absorbed into the indicator solution until that too contains a level of CO2 that is in equilibrium with the airspace.

Higher volume of indicator solution should technically take longer to equilibriate with the airspace?
As for the JBL one, I might then theoretically be able to change the liquid color faster by having less of it, but the benefit could be cancelled out by the larger air space we get?

 

[Wookii]

So would the ideal drop checker (aside from membrane ones) have a very small air gap volume AND a fairly small liquid volume?

I guess so yes - maximising surface area of the indicator liquid also helps of course - but you need to be able to still read it, and not have the liquid escape into the tank. I think the JBL design is about the best you can reasonably expect, in an easy to service product.

As for the JBL one, I might then theoretically be able to change the liquid color faster by having less of it, but the benefit could be cancelled out by the larger air space we get?

I would say so yes - I think CO2 absorbs into liquid easier than it is off gassed, so a smaller air gap and a larger liquid volume, is better than a larger air gap and smaller liquid volume (surface area remaining consistent) if you have to choose between the two.

 

[KirstyF]

Float it in the tank maybe? But how to keep it from tipping over..?

I’ve floated my samples before but it was much easier as I just used a wide necked bottle and clamped the top between two of the glass lids.

Maybe an elastic band around a bottle, attached to a sucker cup?

 

[Hufsa]

Today im going to do a normal sunday water change (50%), trying to get back into the regular rythm. Gonna wait until the lights go out so I dont disturb the photoperiod 🙂

I also need to whip up another batch of ferts, I can see my dosing containers are running low.
Im not going to make the batch last super long, I can see dosing changes in the horizon for my tank, two months ought to do.
For now I will avoid rocking the boat too much, and go for 2/3 EI and my usual DTPA Fe + APFUK traces.
When the tank is more stable and I have grown out my plants a bit, I want to try gradually replacing some of the KNO3 with Urea, and maybe doing custom traces.

I can tell my tank is still out of balance, the water appears slightly cloudy, it has been like this for a bit. It smells a bit stronger of the tank than it usually does too. There also looks to be a slight biofilm (that is not algae) on the glass, I can see the snails making slight tracks where they have gone. I have not scraped the glass because of this, I think the tank can use all the beneficial archaea/bacteria it has at the moment. The Eheim canister is due for a "clean", but I think I should do it gently. Hopefully as long as I just "keep a steady hand on the steering wheel" and avoid doing all sorts of maneuvers, the tank will find its way to balance again with the help of the plants. The algae appears to have decreased a little bit, maybe? Im not seeing quite as large bands of diatoms on the edges of plant leaves. I have trimmed off a lot of old algae infested growth, but the Buces still have some leaves with BBA, I dont want to remove more of those until the plants get a few new ones to rely on.




The Crypt we assume is Queen Vandom recently put out a new leaf, its much greener than its old ones so the plant looks to be recovering, although slowly. Its probably doing a fair amount of root growth as well.






Assumed Silver Queen has one leaf made in my tank and another on the way, Im hoping to see some better color and a pattern appearing eventually.


The Striolatas got a bit offended with all the disturbance lately, so their latest leaves didnt develop to full size. I see the Mini one has another on the way though.


Myriophyllum Guyana is one I can tell has grown a bit, I wish everything was much faster, I keep checking every 10 minutes but all the plants have still not made it to the surface of the tank They should hurry up I am very impatient.




My old Ammannia crassicaulis is a bit confused, a few stems look ok, a few have stunted and the one that was the dominant stem is super confused and has curled up all its leaves. Its ok little plant, you will figure it out.


Ludwigia sp. Marilia showing some yellow tones on the new growth. Ill be happy if it will turn yellow for me, we have a lot of narrow leaved yellow plants but not a lot of round yellow so I quite like the look of it.


Pantanal and Cuba looks so different, I dont know why.. Maybe they came from different nurseries?


This shot is always a pain, I have to angle the phone on the glass and it just distorts everything.


I think my Super Red looks a little pale 🤔 Not sure what thats about.

Lastly the plants in the basket are making their way out of the water. I will find a better solution for them once they have some more emersed growth.

 

[plantnoobdude]

looks super good. The ammania looks decent as well, those mosses(plural form??) and crypts are to die for!!!
any noticable difference with co2? as for the cuba and pantanal, maybe the humidity inside the tc cups was different?

 

[Hufsa]

any noticable difference with co2?

Some yeah, polysperma is going wild, sending out shoots on every node, it never did that before. Every buce is putting out a new leaf, they're going out at record speeds. My bolbitis and javaferns are pearling a lot a few hours after light comes on, my entire watercolumn is covered with tiny tiny oxygen bubbles too, I think the ones in the column are mainly coming from the polysperma, and just get whisked away before they can build up.
I think the plants are still in the process of reprogramming their enzymes and whatnot, they probably had them running "at max" for 2-3ppm CO2 before, and now suddenly they have access to ~20ppm and they have to redo everything. New lighting level as well. I heard it can take 1-2 weeks to do, I started the gas at the 17th, but they havent had 20ppm since that date. So theres probably 1,5 - 2 weeks more until they are adjusted better.

My otos are much happier, but I think it is because the kuhli loaches are keeping them company. They got very reclusive when the corys disappeared, but now they are out and about again like old times.

A weird change is that my trumpet snails are crawling on the glass, especially at night.
If this was a fish tank I would be highly highly alarmed. But since I have so many plants and the watercolumn is literally full of oxygen bubbles in the day I am not quite as alarmed, but still concerned.
Maybe they are taking offense to the ph? But why at night? 🤔

 

[Konsa]

Hi there.
Lovely update.
Glad things are working out for you even if its not as fast as you wish 😉
Do not worry about the snails.If you are talking about the Malaysian trumpets they do come up during the night.They have always done this in my tanks regardless of them being low or high tech its just part of their normal behaviour.I used this as my advantage to reduce population if needed picking them out from the sides early in morning before lights on.
Regards Konstantin

 

[Hufsa]

Ive kept fish (and trumpet snails) for something like 15 years now, ive never seen them do this before in my tanks
I only know that in fishkeeping circles, if your MTS go to the top at night something is really wrong

 

[Konsa]

Hi
Yes I see how critters going towards the surface can be a sign of sth worrying in the tank.But
mine never went to the top really. They do come on the sides even if it was close to substrate level only and Im sure not all of them as population was huge.
I guess benefits of forums is you can come across different experiences someone else has had .I do have observed this behaviour and heard others sharing it when someone asked how to reduce booming population of MTS usually someone will come and say to pick them out early morning from sides 😉
Im really surprised you haven't come across this before.
Regards Konstantin