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Consistency Deficiency

I bought my first regulator second hand and the same thing happened to me, but I didn't realise for a few weeks and it really screwed with things. It's better to have none for now I agree until that's sorted. I think it was a photo with the needlevalve?

Once I realised the problem I bought a new one from co2art and it's been working great since, definitely call them up because it is essential for it to be stable. I accidentally broke a tiny rubber ring when I set mine up and they were really good at sending a new one asap.
 
Hufsa said:
I dont really understand this part, what was the problem you were having?
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When I say photo I meant problem, autocorrect**

The needlevalve is the knob you twist to adjust the amount of bubbles going into the tank

I had a problem where when I set the co2 to the right level (4 bubbles per second), but then I noticed in the tank the amount of bubbles coming out looked different, and realised the amount of co2 coming out was changing throughout the day - sometimes much more than I set, but usually much less. So the needlevalve wasn't staying in the same place/keeping it at the right level consistently.

I also had a problem that twisting the needlevalve seemed to sometimes make a big difference to the amount of bubbles, and sometimes no difference at all as if it was off. Which actually now I think about it may mean it was something else entirely before it that was making it bad. Either way I realised it was way above my pay grade to try to fix, so I just bought a new one and since then it's been ok.
 
Ah I see, that makes sense. I have two needle valves in this setup, the one that comes with the regulator, which i leave fairly open (not sure if they can be screwed out all the way without coming loose?), and a second needle valve from Camozzi which is supposed to be better quality. And I use only the Camozzi to set the bubble rate.
The Camozzi was from CO2supermarket and they sent it to me wrapped in a very thin layer of bubble wrap just loose in a plastic bag 😳 Hope it hasn't gotten damaged from that.

But the main thing i am concerned about right now is that the working pressure was going down even though it was supposed to remain inside the regulator. So needle valve, solenoid, tank valve were all shut, and working pressure (second dial/gauge) decreased and i need to understand why
 
Hufsa said:
the main thing i am concerned about right now is that the working pressure was going down even though it was supposed to remain inside the regulator. So needle valve, solenoid, tank valve were all shut, and working pressure (second dial/gauge) decreased and i need to understand why
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Feeling your pain @Hufsa

I know just how frustrating this is and no that doesn’t seem right. 🙁

Hopefully they will come back to you soon!

I think holding off for now is a good decision. It should work, as stated, out of the box, without faffing around.

With all my issues, I somewhat doubted myself and thought maybe I was doing something wrong but the replacement did everything it was supposed to, right from the start, and that is what you should expect IMO.
 
Hufsa said:
Checked for a leak again using even soapier water
Click to expand...

I found leaks that slipped past the soap test by using a small amount of Magic Ballon Paste around joints and seals, if I get balloons then I’ve got leaks if not I let the paste dry out then peel off. I still use the paste to seal the end threads on my regulator attachment instead of PTFE gas tape, seals up a slow leak nicely (CO2 makes it foam as it cures).

🙂
 
Working pressure has stayed the same overnight this time, hm.
I believe it was also the same from saturday night to sunday morning, and thats why I tried getting started on sunday.

Told CO2Art it has stayed overnight and asked them what they would advise me to do. Waiting for reply.

If I cant get a steady bubble rate, maybe that will help solidify that there is a problem after all.

I am wondering a little bit about the check valves, if they could be affecting things since I am using so little gas..
When I turned the gas on yesterday there were two very noticeable bumps in gas output when the gas finally got through both check valves.
Could they be a problem for an even bubble count after the initial breakthrough?
I feel like maybe im not explaining it well. Is there any way the amount of gas I am letting through the needle valve is hovering right around the pressure needed to go through the check valves, and therefore the check valves are causing fluctuations?
 
Started up again right before noon, recounting the bubbles every 30 minutes or so to check that its staying the same level.
I set the working pressure to 30 to start with, is this the right level for a reactor @Wookii ?
Working pressure decreased slightly once everything had been running for a bit

12:03
18 bubbles per minute (about 1 bubble every 3.3 seconds)
Working pressure one line below 30

12:32
17 ish bpm (might have been 18)
WP one and a half line below 30

13:07
18 bpm
WP one and a half line below 30 still

The dog really needs a walk, im going to go out with her very quickly and then recount as soon as I come back
 
Hufsa said:
I set the working pressure to 30 to start with, is this the right level for a reactor @Wookii ?
Click to expand...

I have to admit I'm not sure! I've only ever used one with an inline diffuser ahead of a reactor, which does need a working pressure of around 30psi, but if you're running straight into a reactor I'm not sure. The fact that you are getting a consistent bubble rate suggests it must be fine, but @Zeus. or @Hanuman will have a better idea.
 
Not sure I understood all but first thing you do when you get a regulator is make a pressure test of both first and second stage. I won't go through the details as Bettatail has done it in PlantedTank forum. You can trust the procedure, he works in the gas industry. 🙂
www.plantedtank.net

Complete Leak Check, CO2 pressurized system

www.plantedtank.net www.plantedtank.net

Regarding check valves, my experience is that depending the type of check valve, specifically those with membranes you will have fluctuations but since those fluctuations are very rapid and at constant intervals you don't really notice them.
 
Realized I forgot to mention about needle valves. If you really want precision then you need to go high end. All these cheap needle valves are basically pretty much crap and can be the source of fluctuations. True quality needle valves can be expensive but they will delivery a constant flow rate and last you a life time. Regulators themselves can also be the source of gas fluctuations.
 
Unfortunately I cannot afford to spend more on the CO2 system than I already have, hopefully ~medium-crap level needle valve will work ok enough for my needs. My system wont be running on the bleeding edge of things which I hope will make it a bit more forgiving.
 
Hrm.
I was dumb and impatient yesterday so I skipped straight to step 2 of Hanumans link since thats where I suspected the problem is.

Step 2.
continue from step one if success, now you have 800 psi of co2 isolated in the first stage chamber.
A. needle valve open.
B. Solenoid valve power off(shut).
C. Turn the regulator handle clockwise to charge the second stage chamber, fill to the regulator default outlet maximum.
D. Turn the regulator handle counter clockwise(completely loose).
E. Release the CO2 in the first stage chamber by turning loose the regulator-Tank connection screw(make sure the co2 tank is closed before you do this).
Now you have CO2 isolated in the second stage chamber.
F. Wait for 5-10 minutes(to ease the second stage diaphragm elastic issue, psi may drop right after the regulator handle turn loose, then it will stay), record the LP gauge psi reading.
G. Wait for 6 hours, if the change of new psi reading is within 1/8+ difference of original reading, go to step 3
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I left it overnight, so more than 6 hours, closer to 12. The pressure drop was from 64 to 54 psi, which I feel like is a lot but is technically within 1/8 (or 12.5%) drop.
Im not happy with this result, doesnt it mean that there is a leak, its just not a big leak?

I should have started at step 1 to be thorough, so I have done that now.
I just want this thing to work out of the box, this isnt what I wanted to spend time doing 😕
I have half a mind to just ask CO2Art to send me a new one and Ill send this one back and then they can deal with it, but I dont know if they will agree to that..
 
Hufsa said:
I left it overnight, so more than 6 hours, closer to 12. The pressure drop was from 64 to 54 psi, which I feel like is a lot but is technically within 1/8 (or 12.5%) drop.
Im not happy with this result, doesnt it mean that there is a leak, its just not a big leak?
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It's close to impossible to have 100% seal. Some leak is expected. Make sure everything is sealed properly and try again.

Hufsa said:
I should have started at step 1 to be thorough, so I have done that now.
I just want this thing to work out of the box, this isnt what I wanted to spend time doing 😕
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Yes well that's what happens with sub par hardware. CO2Art regulators are in my opinion in the low end quality spectrum. Not the worst but certainly not above average. I have one myself. Always saw flow fluctuations with that regulator. Between morning and evening flow rates would be 1 to 2 bubbles appart. I didn't bother because that's the nature of sub par regulators and needle valves. I don't even call that a needle valve. It's a nail.

Hufsa said:
I have half a mind to just ask CO2Art to send me a new one and Ill send this one back and then they can deal with it, but I dont know if they will agree to that..
Click to expand...
You could do that but keep in mind what I said above. Keep your expectations low.
 
Hufsa said:
12:03
18 bubbles per minute (about 1 bubble every 3.3 seconds)
Working pressure one line below 30

12:32
17 ish bpm (might have been 18)
WP one and a half line below 30

13:07
18 bpm
WP one and a half line below 30 still
Click to expand...
Rest of the bubble monitoring from yesterday:

14:01 17 bpm WP same as before
14:40 17 bpm WP same
15:37 17 bpm WP same
16:12 17 bpm WP same
17:07 17 bpm WP same
18:01 17 bpm WP same
19:02 17 + 1/2 bpm WP same
Shut CO2 off after this.

So it held the bubble rate fairly steady. Some of the 17 readings were close to 17 and a half but not quite enough to count as it. I should also take into account imperfections in human timing ability but doing it over 60 seconds at least gives you a sort of average bubble per second count with slightly less impact from inaccuracies around the first and last bubble.

Could a fluctuation of +/-1 bubble per minute be that bad? It sounds ok to me and my gut feeling says my consistency deficiency causes much greater fluctuations for my fish tank than this, but I am not qualified to have a strong opinion on this stuff.
Another thought I had is that the ability to maintain a decent-ish (disclaimer) bubble rate might be a separate thing from a small leak just letting CO2 out of the system constantly. It helps to hear that a 100% seal is close to impossible, I just need to feel confident that most of it is going into my tank and not someplace else.

Argh im so torn. Part of me wants to just roll with it, and another part is not feeling ok about the inconsistent testing and wants more investigations. None of the parts are particularly keen to start taking things apart and cleaning and taping and whatnot.
 
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