DaveWatkin
Member
That's good to know, the one I have mentioned above is garbage. Currently just using the regulator to control.
-
You are viewing the forum as a Guest, please login (you can use your Facebook, Twitter, Google or Microsoft account to login) or register using this link: Log in or Sign Up
CO2 Needle Valve Recommendation . . .
- Thread starter Wookii
- Start date
This is literally the exact information I needed. I am having the same experience with my co2 art needle valve. If you so much as LOOK at it too hard, the bubble rate shifts into ridiculously low or dangerously high levels. It also creeps up and down when nobody's looking, which I find extremely disturbing, considering the time effort and money in that tank.
So, I took your advice and bought this Camozzi one off Co2 Supermarket https://www.co2supermarket.co.uk/precision-camozzi-flow-controller-customiser-p331.html
I went for configuration B-A, hope that's right...!
It arrives tomorrow. I'm sure this will be a great help and all thanks to UKAPS!
(I'm especially pleased about the locking nut feature, so when it's set, it's set...)
I'll report back with my findings for future people in the same situation.
Thanks guys!
So, I took your advice and bought this Camozzi one off Co2 Supermarket https://www.co2supermarket.co.uk/precision-camozzi-flow-controller-customiser-p331.html
I went for configuration B-A, hope that's right...!
It arrives tomorrow. I'm sure this will be a great help and all thanks to UKAPS!
(I'm especially pleased about the locking nut feature, so when it's set, it's set...)
I'll report back with my findings for future people in the same situation.
Thanks guys!
Naturescapes-Rocco
New Member
Did you end up setting this up? How did it work for you? Thanks!
MrClockOff
Member
I ended up using BARSTOCK METERING VALVE. code VM1-BB-6A bought from Home - Cache which is actually the same as VM1-BB-6A : Aalborg
It costed about £100 but it is worth every penny. 3 years in service and no faults so far. Tried Camozzi prior the above one but wasn’t impressed with precision - returned for refund.
It costed about £100 but it is worth every penny. 3 years in service and no faults so far. Tried Camozzi prior the above one but wasn’t impressed with precision - returned for refund.
Interesting thread. I have a CO2 art regulator and also have the issue of fine adjustment. It can also be very temperamental in that i can set a bubble rate which I'm happy with and when its turned off overnight via the solenoid, it comes back on at a very different rate!
Bradders
Member
Does it settle down after 10 mins to the normal rate?
Nope. Very annoying. At times i've set the rate to what i think on one day, come back the next and its either overdoing or barely bubbling at all! I now switch it off and on a few times over a few hours to confirm the rate before i leave it unattended
Bradders
Member
That is annoying - and worrying. I use a dual stage Strideways and its pretty solid.
FrozenShivers
Member
Might be worth contacting CO2Art and seeing if they’ll help out at all.
It has a better needle valve for sure.
MrClockOff
Member
This usually mean you have a leak.
When I was using original needle valve I found that once it warms up from solenoid it releases more gas. Metal expansion from the heat?
Another thumbs up here for Strideways, pretty solid and the needle valve is superior
I have but it was some way out of warantee. They did offer about 20% off one of they new generation regulators but i figured i'll just work with it.
I have bad experience with CO2Art too, just bought Pro-Elite regulator and can't have stable bubble rate from day to day.
I tried to push needle valve knob (no turn!) and it closes CO2 almost completely and sometimes stays at that position, sometimes returns back. video
When I try to pull it (after push) it makes sound and jumps like 1 mm out and bubble rate goes crazy.
Is it normal??? It is loose and just has too much space to travel!
Each time solenoid goes on needle valve "opens" at random point and I have different CO2 bps
First answer from CO2 support:
I want to assure you that everything is okay. Regarding the needle valve, it is designed to be turned to adjust your bubble rate. If you push it with your finger, you are manually forcing the needle to close the CO2 flow, but the needle valve is not meant to be pushed.
I tried to push needle valve knob (no turn!) and it closes CO2 almost completely and sometimes stays at that position, sometimes returns back. video
When I try to pull it (after push) it makes sound and jumps like 1 mm out and bubble rate goes crazy.
Is it normal??? It is loose and just has too much space to travel!
Each time solenoid goes on needle valve "opens" at random point and I have different CO2 bps
First answer from CO2 support:
I want to assure you that everything is okay. Regarding the needle valve, it is designed to be turned to adjust your bubble rate. If you push it with your finger, you are manually forcing the needle to close the CO2 flow, but the needle valve is not meant to be pushed.
Yes ..don't push it ..I have bad experience with CO2Art too, just bought Pro-Elite regulator and can't have stable bubble rate from day to day.
I tried to push needle valve knob (no turn!) and it closes CO2 almost completely and sometimes stays at that position, sometimes returns back. video
When I try to pull it (after push) it makes sound and jumps like 1 mm out and bubble rate goes crazy.
Is it normal??? It is loose and just has too much space to travel!
Each time solenoid goes on needle valve "opens" at random point and I have different CO2 bps
First answer from CO2 support:
I want to assure you that everything is okay. Regarding the needle valve, it is designed to be turned to adjust your bubble rate. If you push it with your finger, you are manually forcing the needle to close the CO2 flow, but the needle valve is not meant to be pushed.
Anyways that may be slop in the thread. Pressure pushes it to on side of the land ..your finger the opposite side..
Anyways ..no don't push it.
Nor screw it in tight either. Generally not designed as a shutoff valve.
You want zero bubbles ..solenoid or main valve.
The SMC AS-1000-M5's ( used in line with hose barbs) are highly regarded on my side of the pond.
That said they are no Swagloc, Hoke, or Aalborg. Or whatever equiv you have over here.
I'm trying to remember if I have a Cammozi somewhere.
One thing I did that made me feel better ( since each was under $10US) was run 2 in series.
Seemed to add a bit more " finesse" to the control.
Granted it's odd and not sure there is any real world benefit but....worked for me.
Note though my CO2 usage on that tank was quite low..
Under 1bps.
That said they are no Swagloc, Hoke, or Aalborg. Or whatever equiv you have over here.
I'm trying to remember if I have a Cammozi somewhere.
One thing I did that made me feel better ( since each was under $10US) was run 2 in series.
Seemed to add a bit more " finesse" to the control.
Granted it's odd and not sure there is any real world benefit but....worked for me.
Note though my CO2 usage on that tank was quite low..
Under 1bps.
Aqua sobriquet
Member
That’s an interesting idea. Can you post a picture of your setup for others to see.
Shouldn't it be rock solid, without any space to travel? Now I'm even afraid to take out CO2 cylinder as any vibration can affect floating needle valve.
Such a disappointment for 200€
Also added Camozzi, but to dial in like 3bps, you need to damage it by force closing over it's limits (min flow rate 3L/min) not even talking about fine tuning
Yea it should maybe, there will alway be some slop in threads. ..but pressure keeps it solid I assume..
My SMC 1000's have a teeny tiny bit of play, My Hoke 1315 has apparently zero.
I'd need to check on the Camozzi specs . Seems high to be. Maybe not the right model?
Camozzi is a competitor to SMC .
Last edited:
Marcel G
Member
Most people have trouble understanding it because the laws that govern it are not entirely simple. Anyway, if you want to have good control over the amount of CO2 flowing from the cylinder into your aquarium, you need to focus on two key parameters of the CO2 system: The first (and by far the most important) is the flow coefficient (Cv) of the needle valve. The second (less important) is the outlet pressure after the cylinder (or at the inlet pressure before the needle valve). Both of these parameters determine how finely you will be able to control the gas flow.
The flow coefficient (Cv) basically refers to the diameter of the needle valve orifice combined with the needle parameters (diameter, length and shape). A valve is basically nothing more than a tube into which you insert a narrow needle, thereby plugging the tube. The narrower the tube and the thinner the needle with a longer taper, the finer the gas flow control. Of course, gas pressure also affects the flow, but the diameter of the "tube and needle" (not how hard you blow into the tube) is the determining factor.
I'll give you an example: if you have a Camozzi needle valve (with the tube as a gate => Cv=0.116), at an inlet pressure of 45 psi (3.1 bar), 55 l/min (!) will flow through it when it is fully open, whereas at about half the pressure of 20 psi (1.4 bar) it will "only" be 24.5 l/min. In contrast, the Hoke Micromite valve (with a much narrower tube => Cv=0.0008) will have a maximum flow of only 0.4 l/min at 45 psi. This means that even at maximum pressure, only 0.4 l/min will flow through my Hoke Micromite valve, while at the lowest possible pressure [say 10 psi] you will still have about 30 times more flow (i.e. over 12 l/min) [with your Camozzi valve]. Not to mention, of course, that I can also reduce that pressure, which will get me to even lower values.
Hence, the common valves that are sold (and advertised as "fine" or "precise") are unsuitable for our purposes. Reducing the inlet pressure with a pressure reducing valve on the bottle will reduce this unsuitability somewhat, but certainly not enough to make them suitable.
To further illustrate how unsuitable the commonly sold needle valves (which tend to be included in most commercially sold CO2 kits) are, it should be remembered that 60 bubbles (4 mm in diameter) have a volume of about 2 ml. This means that if your bubble counter shows a flow rate of 60 bpm (= 1 bps), then you have 2 ml of CO2 per minute flowing into your aquarium. So if you have your needle valve completely closed and you want to open it so that only 2 ml of CO2 per minute (= 60 bpm) flows into your aquarium, then the needle valve must be able to do that. A normal needle valve has about 20 marks (ticks) on the knob - that is, 20 tiny turns will make one full turn (= 360°), and a 1 mark turn (= 18°) is the smallest possible turn you will be capable of. Now, logically: if turning the knob of your needle valve is to increase the flow of CO2 by just 2 ml, then one whole turn of the knob will increase your flow by 40 ml (= 20 marks * 2 ml). So to be able to increase the CO2 flow from 0 to 60 bpm, you need a valve that will increase the flow by a maximum (!) of 40 ml per minute (= 0.04 l/min) with one whole turn of the knob.
Now look at the graphs for each valve in my article and tell me which valves meet this condition.
A hint:
PS: The resulting values of this flow rate depend of course [as I mentioned] also on the inlet pressure, but this can only reduce (or increase) these values by tens of percent, not by an order of magnitude. So if, for example, a Camozzi needle valve [at 90 psi inlet pressure] will increase your CO2 flow by 6.5 liters per minute at one full turn of the knob, at half that pressure [45 psi] it will only drop to 3.25 liters per minute (which will still be several orders of magnitude more than you need, though ... as you need only about 40 millilitres per minute).
The flow coefficient (Cv) basically refers to the diameter of the needle valve orifice combined with the needle parameters (diameter, length and shape). A valve is basically nothing more than a tube into which you insert a narrow needle, thereby plugging the tube. The narrower the tube and the thinner the needle with a longer taper, the finer the gas flow control. Of course, gas pressure also affects the flow, but the diameter of the "tube and needle" (not how hard you blow into the tube) is the determining factor.
I'll give you an example: if you have a Camozzi needle valve (with the tube as a gate => Cv=0.116), at an inlet pressure of 45 psi (3.1 bar), 55 l/min (!) will flow through it when it is fully open, whereas at about half the pressure of 20 psi (1.4 bar) it will "only" be 24.5 l/min. In contrast, the Hoke Micromite valve (with a much narrower tube => Cv=0.0008) will have a maximum flow of only 0.4 l/min at 45 psi. This means that even at maximum pressure, only 0.4 l/min will flow through my Hoke Micromite valve, while at the lowest possible pressure [say 10 psi] you will still have about 30 times more flow (i.e. over 12 l/min) [with your Camozzi valve]. Not to mention, of course, that I can also reduce that pressure, which will get me to even lower values.
Hence, the common valves that are sold (and advertised as "fine" or "precise") are unsuitable for our purposes. Reducing the inlet pressure with a pressure reducing valve on the bottle will reduce this unsuitability somewhat, but certainly not enough to make them suitable.
To further illustrate how unsuitable the commonly sold needle valves (which tend to be included in most commercially sold CO2 kits) are, it should be remembered that 60 bubbles (4 mm in diameter) have a volume of about 2 ml. This means that if your bubble counter shows a flow rate of 60 bpm (= 1 bps), then you have 2 ml of CO2 per minute flowing into your aquarium. So if you have your needle valve completely closed and you want to open it so that only 2 ml of CO2 per minute (= 60 bpm) flows into your aquarium, then the needle valve must be able to do that. A normal needle valve has about 20 marks (ticks) on the knob - that is, 20 tiny turns will make one full turn (= 360°), and a 1 mark turn (= 18°) is the smallest possible turn you will be capable of. Now, logically: if turning the knob of your needle valve is to increase the flow of CO2 by just 2 ml, then one whole turn of the knob will increase your flow by 40 ml (= 20 marks * 2 ml). So to be able to increase the CO2 flow from 0 to 60 bpm, you need a valve that will increase the flow by a maximum (!) of 40 ml per minute (= 0.04 l/min) with one whole turn of the knob.
Now look at the graphs for each valve in my article and tell me which valves meet this condition.
A hint:
- The Camozzi needle valve will give you not 40 millilitres but 6.5 litres (!) per minute of CO2 after one 360° turn of the knob. This means that even if you could only turn the knob a hundredth of a millimetre, you still wouldn't be able to set the flow rate that low.
- Similarly, the SMC AS1000 needle valve will increase your CO2 flow by about 1.2 litres (!) per minute (or 1,200 ml/min) after one 360° turn of the knob.
- In contrast, one full turn of the knob on the Hoke Milli-mite 1300 needle valve will increase your flow by much less than 40 ml/minute (= 0.04 l/min), so this valve is suitable. And even better (i.e. more suitable) is the Hoke Micromite 1600, where one 360° turn of the knob will increase your CO2 flow by about 3 ml per minute (= 0.003 l/min).
PS: The resulting values of this flow rate depend of course [as I mentioned] also on the inlet pressure, but this can only reduce (or increase) these values by tens of percent, not by an order of magnitude. So if, for example, a Camozzi needle valve [at 90 psi inlet pressure] will increase your CO2 flow by 6.5 liters per minute at one full turn of the knob, at half that pressure [45 psi] it will only drop to 3.25 liters per minute (which will still be several orders of magnitude more than you need, though ... as you need only about 40 millilitres per minute).
Last edited:
