Calling 'Old School' CO2 practitioners

[Polly]

Have been struggling to transition plants and grow them so that they look healthy for the last year, and have thrown in the towel.
Was using liquid carbon but it seemed to be annoying my Peacock Gudgeon, they'd swim around shaking their heads and flicking for an hour after it was added (via the filter to ensure it was added slowly). So I've stopped using it. Very happy Peacock Gudgeon is the result.
Tried lowering the light level and going no liquid carbon but plants were suffering and that was on 25%.

So I started thinking about my CO2 experiment back in the early 2000s with an inverted 70ml dessert cup, a balloon, and a 2L bottle of cheap lemonade for the CO2, which was successful but unsustainable long term, and found my way to this thread < Old school co2 method.>
which is really encouraging - thanks guys !

I don't want to go high light, high energy, just boost the plants enough that they look healthy, grow, and stop melting. So after a few days repeating the CO2 + balloon method, I bit the bullet and bought the Ista CO2 starter kit with the bell chamber. Plants are doing a lot better, and the fish seem much happier too.

However, I'd like to not be spending so much on the cost of replacement cans.

Having looked at what's feasible locally, I think a refillable Sodastream canister would be the way to go, but not sure of the fitting I'd need for the top. I'm thinking really basic - a valve to turn on/off the CO2, and an attachment for the CO2 tubing to fill the Bell.

Is this even feasible ? Everything I've seen online is geared towards CO2 injection with/without a Solenoid. But if I'm filling a bell once a day, I don’t really need that. I've also got no spare electricity point for a Solenoid.

So .. does anyone have any advice/ideas please ?
I'm completely new to this idea. 3 weeks ago I was filling a cup via balloon from a lemonade bottle ! 😆

If you got this far, thanks for reading, and for any thoughts you might want to share
Polly

 

[G H Nelson]

Hi @Polly
The journals could be of interest.

Eclectic Mini Tank!

Hi Folks Set-up a little grow on tank with bits and pieces of equipment I had lying around the house. Inception: 10th March 2023 Tank Size: 30cm x 20cm x 17cm. Tank volume: 10 Litres. Substrate: DOOA Tropical River Soil. Water: RO/Tapwater.....90%/10%. Hardscape: Lignite 5 Small pieces sourced...

www.ukaps.org

Dennerle Scapers Tank 35 Litre "The Red Ring"

Hi Everyone I decided to set-up a Planted Tank in the kitchen! Water Hard Tap-water Aquarium. Dennerle Scapers Tank 35 Litre. Width 400 mm Depth 320 mm Height 280 mm Lighting. AZOO Flex - Mini Nano Led Black. Changed to ONE Flat Nano on the 1st Jan 2021. Co2 Equipment. CO2 Stainless 1 Litre...

www.ukaps.org

I have been using the Citric Acid/Bicarbonate Soda Cylinders for a few years now...not any major issues with them.
I don't use a Solenoid with the regulator.....I run them 24/7 with a low bubble rate.

Here are a few useful tips!
A wide-necked funnel is handy for adding the CA/BS mix.
A long wooden dowel or piece of wooden rod for stirring the dry mix in the cylinder is also useful to help dislodge the remnants.

I've been tweaking the mix ratio of the ingredients Bicarbonate Soda/Citric Acid.....2/1.
This seems to stop the residue from crystalizing in the bottom of the cylinder after the reaction has stopped.
Which makes the waste easier to remove.

The water that is added, I put in the fridge to lower the temperature.....this reduces the reaction time of the two ingredients, which is pretty quick.
Although the outlay might be a tad expensive, it has its benefits.
You have some control over the bubble rate.
The ingredients are easily purchased.
It looks better than the usual plastic bottles and other Bio Sets available.

They can be purchased on eBay/Amazon.
Amazon product ASIN B0B7QXC6DChoggie

 

[hax47]

I believe this fits the definition of "old school": I've been dosing my aquarium with CO2 using homemade soda (made from tap water with SodaStream) for a few months, and it appears to be effective with some added iron uptake benefits. You can find details in my journal. It's a simple and foolproof method. However, determining the amount of soda to add might require a bit of calculation or measurement, but it's not overly challenging.

Providing CO2 is just one aspect of maintaining an aquarium, you should not think about it as a boost or the ultimate solution to all problems. It's likely necessary to address other components of your system as well.

 

[G H Nelson]

I believe this fits the definition of "old school": I've been dosing my aquarium with CO2 using homemade soda (made from tap water with SodaStream) for a few months, and it appears to be effective with some added iron uptake benefits. You can find details in my journal. It's a simple and foolproof method. However, determining the amount of soda to add might require a bit of calculation or measurement, but it's not overly challenging.

Providing CO2 is just one aspect of maintaining an aquarium, you should not think about it as a boost or the ultimate solution to all problems. It's likely necessary to address other components of your system as well.

CO2 is another form of fertilization in my opinion!
You add salts for the benefit of plant health.

 

[The Miniaturist]

I'm still using the bell & small co2 cannisters. I have looked at other forms of adding co2 but I have very limited space round my tank & as it's small (57l) one filling of the bell a day is sufficient.
I'm not sure whether it makes a significant difference other than increasing the growth rate of stems slightly compared with the other two tanks, I have to trim the plants more & the leaves are larger.
For me, getting the fertilizer regime right (or more likely not!) has more impact on plant health & growth, as well as overall tank maintenance. I do grow mainly 'easy' category plants with the odd more difficult one thrown in to see how it gets on under low light.

 

[Polly]

Hi everyone and thank you all for your replies.

G H Nelson - I was all set to get a 1L CO2 generator, but when ordered on ebay before Christmas with a UK seller, the seller accepted the sale then cancelled it ! Meanwhile I've watched them relist several times and keep raising the price, which is off-putting to say the least ! So I thought perhaps it would just be too much hassle to even get one into the uk. As my Aquarium is 110L, I also feel that a generator would need to be larger, but have no room for a 2L. I really don't want to be mixing up for CO2 on a weekly basis. I've also found injecting CO2 into the bell once a day from a canister very convenient.

Hax47, I did try dosing a tank with carbonated water, but it was a 2L bottle of spring water. the problem there being that the water off-gasses and each dose contains progressively less CO2 so needs to be adjusted. My experiment didn't last long as there's no guarantee that each bottle of spring water contains exactly the same amount of CO2 between brands. I think for me, your method would prove to be a little too complicated.
I'm really interested in your use of undergravel filters. Until 20 years ago I used them exclusively and grew beautiful planted aquaria. Then was seduced by the new-fangled powerheads and external filters. I’ve been considering returning to them for the last year or so. I need another aquarium to start up with one. The main thing stopping me has been the lack of really quiet air pumps.
Which leads me to my thoughts on air pumps/air driven under-gravels. I have been questioning whether part of the reason I was able to grow beautiful plants in undergravel aquariums was that the fine air bubbles of the air-stones in the uplift tubes were dissolving co2 into the water continually. CO2 being more readily dissolved in water than oxygen. And given the following,

CO2
250-400ppm Normal background concentration in outdoor ambient air
400-1,000ppm Concentrations typical of occupied indoor spaces with good air exchange What are safe levels of CO and CO2 in rooms? | Kane International Limited

it’s likely that the amount dissolving into the water could actually be useful ! I aim to experiment with this hopefully in the coming year, but that depends on how much spare time I have.

G H Nelson - I agree, CO2 is just another nutrient. It also is the element that allows plants to create carbohydrate and grow, otherwise they become stunted and in my experience, melt. So for this aquarium, I think it may be what’s missing.

The Miniaturist – It’s good to hear you’re still getting good results with the bell. I’m just happy the plants have stopped melting. I was adding ferts, but still most of the plants were really struggling. Now they are looking healthy. I’m not really into faster growth, but being unable to transition new plants was becoming expensive ! I never had this trouble in the days when all aquarium plants were grown immersed. Just floated them for a day or two to recover from shipping and then planted. But maybe there was more CO2 courtesy of my air-driven undergravel filters ?
Are you using the Insta 12g canisters? Or the smaller 16g canisters? which could work out much cheaper since they can be bought much more cheaply on amazon etc.

.

 

[Polly]

Hi G H Nelson,

Having run the numbers again and read and reread the explanations by confused squid on reddit, I think this is probably the least complicated way to go. At least the whole thing comes as a kit and I could get a good few months of use from one reaction at my present rate, or even a little higher by running the bubbles into my present CO2 Bell chamber. One thing that concerns me - how 'nasty' is the remaining liquid after however long you use it for? Does it go mouldy? - so many questions !

 

[jaisol]

Older fire extinguishers are available very cheap, £5 - £10,(2-5kg) and they should last quiet some time. Once they are 10 years old they have to be disposed of and that costs money. At my works, if they are partially used, low pressure (not in green area) , or simply near the 10 year mark we get new ones. Ebay usually has people from time to time listing them, failing that pub supply companies, welding supply shops also sell CO2 bottles, however much more expensive than old fire extinguishers.
To fill a small bottle or balloon from a fire Ex may be tricky without a regulator as they tend to turn full on quickly and blast it out, but aliexpress sells adapters / regulators(valves) £30 that screw into uk fire Ex (its an odd ball screw thread - I can't remember but google uk fire Ex screw thread). As for buying 6g / 12g cartridges LOL.

As for making noxious liquids gases, if its carbonates & water or acid then it will simply fizz and when it stops you start again (chemical reaction). The other way is beer / wine (fermentation, yeast, sugar, water, flavorings to suite) in my opinion there is no waste, the gas is used, and the liquid is used ( avoid drinking the yellow dreggs at the bottom).

 

[The Miniaturist]

Hi @Polly,
I'm using the 12g ista/Tropica/Colombo cans of co2, whichever I can find as they are all the same. The full-on huge red fire extinguisher set up didn't appeal, too complicated & expensive, I just wanted to see if I could give the plants a little boost!
I have also looked at the bio reactors but was concerned about leaking bottles & decided on my small tank the cans of gas were adequate.
Have you seen the Tropica bio co2 system? The kit has everything you need including a diffuser, JBL also produce a similar system with a diffuser instead of the bell.

 

[G H Nelson]

Hi G H Nelson,

Having run the numbers again and read and reread the explanations by confused squid on reddit, I think this is probably the least complicated way to go. At least the whole thing comes as a kit and I could get a good few months of use from one reaction at my present rate, or even a little higher by running the bubbles into my present CO2 Bell chamber. One thing that concerns me - how 'nasty' is the remaining liquid after however long you use it for? Does it go mouldy? - so many questions !

Hi Polly
You don't really need Co2 for certain plants species but it helps to bring out the best in all plants!
The exhausted mixture can either be a liquid or liquid and crystals depending on the mixture ratios.
You get similar liquid remnants in Bio Sets from JBL etc!
It doesn't go mouldy as its in a sealed cylinder.

 

[Bradders]

Hi @Polly,
Have you seen the Tropica bio co2 system? The kit has everything you need including a diffuser, JBL also produce a similar system with a diffuser instead of the bell.

Wow! That system seems incredible! How is the output rate of C02 controlled in that system?

 

[G H Nelson]

Wow! That system seems incredible! How is the output rate of C02 controlled in that system?

The output isn't controllable!

 

[hax47]

I also started with bottled spring water first and had the same experience. Now I use sodastream equipment to prepare fresh soda every day. I use up all I prepared, but if I weren't, I would top up the bottle the next day and saturate it with CO2. One sodastream CO2 bottle lasts about 20 days for me, but I have 1000+ liter aquariums plus we also drink soda occasionally.
About the UGF... I have most of the aquariums in my bedroom, so I use powerheads which are silent enough. You don't need to turn the whole aquarium bottom into a filter, in one of my aquariums the filter is underneath the back part of the aquarium, in the front part I have pot soil covered with gravel and sand. The filtering in heavily planted aquariums is sometimes overrated anyway.

Confusingly, the ppm concentrations of CO2 in the air and water are different units. In air, it literally means parts (number of particles) per million (particles). In water, it means mg/l. So comparing the two is like comparing miles to gallons.... To make it more complicated, even if we used the same units, it is not the concentrations that determine the direction and the rate of diffusion of gases between air and water. It is the partial pressure of gases. With the indoor CO2 partial pressures, you will have an equilibrium somewhere around 1-3 mg/l water CO2 concentrations. Equilibrium is where there is no CO2 partial pressures in the air and water are equal.

I do not have many years of experience, but I have never had aquarium CO2 levels below the equilibrium, meaning that increased aeration would always mean CO2 loss from my tanks. So CO2 production rate (by plants, critters, and bacteria) in my tanks is higher than the rate of photosynthesis. I suppose one would need a massive plant mass and intensive lighting to bring the water CO2 below the equilibrium. And the indoor CO2 is probably not stable either... During the summer, when the doors and windows are more likely to be left open, and when the kids and dogs spend more time outdoors, the equilibrium is more likely to be closer to 1 mg/l, than during the winter. 3 mg/l might be enough, but I have doubts that ~1 mg/l combined with strong lighting makes a sustainable aquarium. But again, I do not have much experience with such a setup. Anyway, I can't find reports with aquarium CO2 levels below equilibrium. Measuring the aquarium's CO2 levels and comparing it to equilibrium is not often a habit of the aquarists though...

 

[Bradders]

The output isn't controllable!

Hmmmm. Is that something I need to be very wary of?!

 

[Andy Pierce]

I use a "middle ground" of disposable 600g CO2 tanks you can order online from a welding supply store (Clarke CO2 Gas Cylinder (600g) - Machine Mart - Machine Mart). You will also need a regulator that fits these disposable tanks (Gas Regulator for Throwaway Gas Cylinders with 2 Gauges). That gets you most of the way there. Add in a needle valve and a diffuser stone and you're good to go. A solenoid is optional - you can run CO2 24/7 if you like. I've always been intimidated by fire extinguishers and for my small setup the disposable CO2 lasts at least 3 months.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I also started with bottled spring water first and had the same experience.

@Mick.Dk <"discusses this"> when he is talking about looking after the Tropica stand at Aquarium conventions etc.

even if we used the same units, it is not the concentrations that determine the direction and the rate of diffusion of gases between air and water. It is the partial pressure of gases. With the indoor CO2 partial pressures, you will have an equilibrium somewhere around 1-3 mg/l water CO2 concentrations. Equilibrium is where there is no CO2 partial pressures in the air and water are equal.

There is some discussion of this in <"Is CO2 really worth it??">.

cheers Darrel

 

[hax47]

Equilibrium is where there is no CO2 partial pressures in the air and water are equal.

What I meant here is, that equilibrium is when CO2 partial pressures in the air and water are equal.

 

[Polly]

Hi@Jaisol – Thanks for the suggestion but I’m not even considering Fire Extinguishers, two reasons – I don’t have the space for one, and the nearest place I can get a refill is an 80+ mile round trip ! So it’s a non starter really for me.

Hi @The Miniaturist – like you I just want to give the plants a little boost. Nothing dramatic, but it’s nice that they’ve stopped melting at last. You know you’re in trouble when supposedly ‘easy’ plants melt before they can acclimatise. I bought a pack of 3 Ista canisters, and having seen the difference just 120ml/day has made, I’d like to continue. But I hate that the cans are disposable, it seems so wasteful and also not exactly economical.
I’ve seen the Bio system, but I’m not going down that route. I used to make wine, and had two 1 gallon demijohns explode at 3am one summer during a sudden heatwave. The mess took days to clean up, it got everywhere, and it was weeks/months before the smell completely disappeared. Luckily it wasn’t in our living room, and no livestock were involved. I really can’t contemplate using something that has such potential for disaster, even if it doesn’t explode.

Hi @hoggie - Thank you ! That was a major worry for me, but I guess that the CO2 would prevent bacterial growth and moulds, and then it all gets rinsed with hot water. I should have anticipated that really.
I’m seeing the difference even a very small amount of passive CO2 makes, so it would definitely be worth the effort.

Hi @ Andy Pierce – As I said, I’m not looking for disposable canisters, and a 600g canister would be too big in the cupboard once the regulator etc was added. I like the idea though. Using my 150ml Ista/Tropica Bell Chamber, I’d get about 5 ½ years of CO2 out of it !

Hi @Darrel Thanks for that. I’d read them as part of my research, but always good to be reminded of them, and you reminded me to save the links .

 

[PARAGUAY]

When l joined UKAPS ,I read loads of mainly George Farmer articles in PFK about CO2 and eventually bought a DD disposable bottle 600g set ,replacing bottles easy with Halfords ,eventually with EI fertiliser system the results were good ,too good a bucket of cuttings and 50% water changes every week
But with soft water l know l have the best for plants,but the right plants l think easy plants With no pressurised CO2 at the moment and still do large W/C at least 40% weekly and use a AIO fertiliser with all essential nutrients,if you have hard water you have less background CO2 so any system of CO2 will help

 

[Little]

I’m new but just purchased a nano co2 set for size reasons. They also sell a soda stream adaptor for it so you can refill them to avoid disposable cans. You can have a very slow bubble count or use it to fill the bell.
The downside for you are twofold.
1. It’s very expensive compared to what you’re currently using.
2. It has an electric switch and you mentioned you have no spare socket near so it would require an extension cable.

Site is co2 supermarket. I have a journal if you want to see how the co2 system looks.