Bigger fish to force schooling

[zozo]

Well the question who told the fish that schooling in numbers is safer stays rather an enigma.. What is it? Is it a hidden genetical intelligence or do they indeed percieve their surrounding and dangers with a consiousness and tell eachother "Lets number up then we seem bigger and have more survival chance". For many years scientists have doubted this and only measured intelligence by brain size and called it just instinct. Performed certain tests and with the results concluded they must be rather stupid. Still if it is instinct it has to come from somewhere. Then there still must be a rather intelligent consious perception of invironment to experimentally learn and make the conclusion this is safer and the other is not.. Isn't it?

I can't get over this with my way of binary thinking connecting dots. Something just doesn't add up here.. It might be pure chance that fish actualy school for a very other reason and there once where also fish not doing that, these are the ones which didn't make it and only the schooling varieties survived the tooth of time till now.

I realy do not know, but i rather believe that humans are so fond about them selfs and their own invention called intelligence and their so called pattent on reasoning in which we like to rule and own the world are much to proud to give something like a tiny fish a reasonable consiousnes.

Read a few biology books for example botanica after all this is a botanic forum.. You find it in all of them no matter what the subject is at least i did and i can give a small anecdote about what very often is writen by scientists i bet you have red some of statements like this too. It is in this case about an author writing a description of a carnivorious plant the Pinguicula. This one catches insects with it's sticky leaves.. Now the author/scientist wrote "This plant grows a very long flower stem because it prevents the polinating insects from getting caught on his leaves." The matter a fact he's actualy making the statement the plants is doing this because of that, so the plant most have an intelligent consious perception of it's surroundings or else it could never have done this in the first place. Now giving a plant this property is rather hillarious, it has no eyes no nose nor ears and not even braintissue. I'm still bafled that a botanist/scientist writes something like this and be serious about it in an informative and educative descritpion about a plant. I'm sorry i realy have no idea and doubt his intelligents and ask myself what school did this poor chap go to.

And if it's true then a fish must be rather one hell of a smart bugger..

Who or what is taking us for a ride here?

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Is it not just some evolution thing? With humans supposedly the reason we don't like high pitched noises is because back in the monkey days they would scream high pitched to warn of predators. It's been tens of thousands of years since any of us were monkeys but rubbing polystyrene together or fingers down a black board still gets my senses working over time even though I'm perfectly conscious that there is no threat to me. I can't see why a similar reaction isn't built into the DNA of any living creature, it's just a healthy defence mechanism.

With respect to fish consciousness, they must have some level of thought power rather than just an eating breeding machine. There are even plants that can sense certain types of insects. I myself have witnessed personally fish that would go about their daily business when my wife and daughter walk past the tank but come up to the corner when I was there, this had to have some level of decision making to know that neither of them are going to feed them and they aren't a source of food.

As for stress, once the larger fish has been introduced for a while and the other fish realise it's not s threat I don't suppose they are any further stressed than say a human crossing the road. You are aware of a potential threat but as long as you maintain a healthy distance and keep an eye on the potential it's no major worry. I recently added two Panda Corys to my RCS tank temporarily until the tank they will end up in is matured, for the first two or three days they scattered when the Pandas were rummaging in the gravel for food, now the shrimp will quite happily sit on their their backs waiting for left over algae flakes. Obviously at some point here the shrimp have decided they are no threat and actually beneficial because they stir up the gravel releasing particles of food. That's conscious decision making and just from a shrimp.

I don't think adding bigger fish is unnecessarily stressing anything, as long as it poses no real threat and in fact imitating the wild as much as possible is healthier for the inhabitants. If the OP hadn't mentioned stress and the question had simply been can I add a pair of Apistos to my tank with the other occupants most would have said yeah they'll be fine.

You have to ask the question, in real life would some apistos chase away smaller fish from their spawning territory to keep their fry safe? Do small shoaling fish get chased about by larger fish? Do these fish live in similar water conditions? If you can say yes to all three then ethically I'm good with that. Soon as it fits in it's mouth and it would have a bite the answer is no. Other than that can't see any harm. Our fish are fat, lazy, prima donnas anyway, won't do them any harm to have to act normal as nature intended.

You wouldn't take trees and ropes out of a monkey enclosure at the Zoo to prevent them possibly injuring themselves. They are there to provide stimulation and stop the monkey getting bored, I see no big difference here.

 

[alto]

I really enjoyed both these posts

If the OP hadn't mentioned stress and the question had simply been can I add a pair of Apistos to my tank with the other occupants most would have said yeah they'll be fine.

This!
The OP used a poor choice of words & suffered for it I suspect ...

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

I'm all for fish welfare and creating the best conditions I can but not to the point of them not having a life. I see fish chasing each other and the interactions between the different species as part of its life.

I think that's the point of nature aquarium, warts and all.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Is it not just some evolution thing? With humans supposedly the reason we don't like high pitched noises is because back in the monkey days they would scream high pitched to warn of predators. It's been tens of thousands of years since any of us were monkeys but rubbing polystyrene together or fingers down a black board still gets my senses working over time even though I'm perfectly conscious that there is no threat to me. I can't see why a similar reaction isn't built into the DNA of any living creature, it's just a healthy defence mechanism.

I think that is right. You have innate behaviour in all animals. This is from <"Jerry Coyne's web site">.

It isn't only an aversion to high pitch noises we share with Chimps (and other primates), it is <"blood groups"> (A, B, O, Rhesus factors etc.). Other genes will be "conserved" from a much earlier ancestor, like the <"HOX genes we share"> with Drosophila (Fruit Flies) etc.

If small fish that have a genetic disposition to shoal (and avoid open spaces) pass on more of their genes to the next generation then, over time, natural selection will mean that the population of small fish will have more fish that exhibit shoaling behaviour and avoid open spaces.

If a new predator then arrives that avoids open spaces and is particularly adept at catching shoaling fish, then natural selection (the new predator) will begin to select for fish that like open spaces and avoid aggregations of fish.

Over evolutionary time a range of selective pressures will define behaviour.

cheers Darrel

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

I guess that goes for anything with a flight or fight mechanism including humans Darrel. If you’re on your own and there's a threat there's a high probability that you will be the victim, stand with two other people and you reduce that risk to 1 in 3 and so on and so forth. Over time animals have evolved to play the numbers game. Some fish have body shapes or markings so the predator can't take work out which end is the head confusing it into not knowing which way it will dart or markings that help it blend into its back ground. these are long term evolution probably taking thousands if not millions of years of mutation. The simplest quickest evolutionary defence mechanism is to be part of a group.

 

[zozo]

Some fish have body shapes or markings so the predator can't take work out which end is the head confusing it into not knowing which way it will dart or markings that help it blend into its back ground. these are long term evolution probably taking thousands if not millions of years of mutation.

This statement in particular is where i fall off my chair and is completely out of my grasp.. Even if it has millions of years evolution, fast or slow then still it must be a rather very intelligent process making that decision to grow in a deceptive form or color the fool a predator.. The most striking animals on this planet when it comes to that are among other the Phyllium Giganteum.. Behavior ok this i can grasp, but looks not so very much.

In the end for me i rather believe it's just a nice theory to give some more intrigue to the story, since no human ever witnesed any form of evolution like this, we are much to short on this planet for that. If it is not just chance and incidentaly fooling predators there must be something in animals and maybe even plants going on of which we are very reluctand to give credit to for what ever reason.

Nominalism??

We are smashing flies for hundreds of thousends of years and still they didn't grow a helmet..

 

[Derek113]

How great it would be to see a fly wearing a hard hat with a tin of pepper spray!

I watched a documentary about killer whales killing great white sharks. This is a great example of animal evolution. It now means sharks will have to find ways of avoiding orcas.

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

We are smashing flies for hundreds of thousends of years and still they didn't grow a helmet..

Haha, I think even evolution would struggle to grow a helmet. Although it's not that far from the truth. Is a snail a slug wearing a helmet? Sort of and that's what evolution is about. Darwins theory, although a theory is pretty much accepted as being correct by almost everyone except religious people. It's only theory because unlike religion, science everything is a theory because it could all change with some further evidence. I heard the other day that drinking hot coffee can cause cancer. A theory with little evidence to support it. Whereas Darwins theory has unlimited amounts of evidence to support it. Still a theory though because theoretically next week God could turn up and it all be wrong.

I think Darwins book "origin of species" is actually available has a free download on ebook readers and worth a read. It's not that the fish is aware of any of the changes and somehow makes any changes it's just a pure chance genetic mutation that works out to be beneficial.

since no human ever witnesed any form of evolution like this, we are much to short on this planet for that.

We witness evolution and genetic mutation every single day, its just doesn't matter that much. For instance you hear of people with 3 nipples, webbed feet Strawberry Marks etc. They are all mutations of some Gene. All the various Discus strains all mutations. You can even do it yourself if you lived long enough, see a fish with something weird about it that makes it different like an extra long dorsal fin. Separate that fish from the rest and constantly in breed it over time with it own close family members selected for having long fins and eventually all the young will look like that.

When you add energy to proteins and amino acids random cells are created and these cells mutate into various life forms Now in the case of our fish with the eye on the other end of the body, obviously it's not an eye it's just a marking that looks like an eye and the fish isn't even aware its got it. One day a fish was born and it had a random marking on its body that looked a bit like an eye (Genetic Mutation). This fish was swimming about with other fish when a predator turns up and makes an attack, the predator misses the fish with the marking because it thought it was going in the other direction but gets one of the other fish. The fish with the marking is living long enough to have offspring the other isn't. The fish with the marking gives birth to fish that look just like it with a similar marking because they look like their mother. The above repeats over and over for thousands of years and in fact the more the marking looks like an eye the better chance that fish stands and voila, over time we end up with a species of fish that looks like it has an eye at both ends as a defence mechanism.

In the case of Humans it doesn't really matter. In effect we don't evolve because we adapt our surroundings to us. The brain evolved to the point where we made things work. If someone was born with three legs and could run at 60MPH that mutation wouldn't create dominant new species even though they could out run predators or catch fast moving prey better because we have Cars and supermarkets It would just be a medical complaint.

 

[zozo]

I do understand some parts of evolution and far from religious since i long ago converted myself to an agnost.. I just can't know.

Now in the case of our fish with the eye on the other end of the body, obviously it's not an eye it's just a marking that looks like an eye and the fish isn't even aware its got it. One day a fish was born and it had a random marking on its body that looked a bit like an eye (Genetic Mutation).

In your previous reply it didn't realy implement this view, no pun intended both statements contradict eachother. As in about every ordanary book or every ordenary documentary about evolution it is stated evolution does this because of that.. They give more credit to evolution than to the animal in question. F.e example they show people in asia working in the jungle with a mask on the back of their head with eyes painted on it to fool a tiger. And a few frames later they show that famous butterfly with 2 markings on its wings looking like a pair of eyes. And it's stated the same way as you did in the previous post, in a way that evolution did this for this particular reason.. IHMO this is nothing more than adding intrigue to the story and there for it ceases to be science.

Why is it stated like that and what the hell do they want to make us believe. And this tiny (esoteric) detail makes me think that many books and especialy those (David Attenborough) television documentaries are not scripted by scientists but rather by salesman.

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Not sure what you mean mate. At what point are they contradictory? There's actually two points and both are valid. There's two things going on and they're not mutually exclusive. The brain is evolving as well as the physical appearance.
All living creatures were born with a basic set of instructions embedded in them which guarantees a better chance of survival. Part of those are the flight and fight policy, humans have the same thing. We have a reward and survival mechanism which make us find food, breed and stay alive. The physical attributes we're stuck with, how we use them I down t instinct. The flight or fight part is a part of of brain isn't very good at making logical decisions because It doesn't have time to make those decisions, on 99% of times we will do exactly what we did the last time we were in a similar situation if that worked. Sometimes it works out sometimes not.
In th case of a schooling fish the physical attributes that have evolved are body shape for fast moving, colour to blend or all looking th same or bright colours to look poisonous. Then the fish has its instincts, if last time there was a predator the fish survived an attack by mingling with other similar fish its brain will have made the connection that doing so can save its life.
From then on that what the fish will do without using up to much brain power. It's a combination of physical attributes an brain power. When both are in sync at works these are the species that pass on their blood line and eveolves in that direction.

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

By the way, that was posted from phone with a massive raging red wine hangover so apologies for all the spelling mistakes Can't seem to find the edit button, sometimes it's their and sometimes not. Not sure why.

 

[zozo]

By the way, that was posted from phone with a massive raging red wine hangover so apologies for all the spelling mistakes Can't seem to find the edit button, sometimes it's their and sometimes not. Not sure why.

Lol, never mind, it's a bit the same for me, without a wine hangover.. My english actualy the hangover and actualy isn't good enough to mingle into discussions like this.. Often when done posting i realize i maybe didn't use the correct words to say what i mean.. And after reading it again i guess maybe by far i didn't say what i think i've said.. And may well be what i realy said didn't make any sence at all..

Excuse me for that.. I never should have tried it in the first place..

It remembers me of one day in spain.. I also do speak some spanish and that day in spain i met a lovely girl and thought/tried to say something nice to her.. She bursted out in laughter and walked away. Till today a actualy still do not know what i realy said.. The feeling it gave me, i actualy don't want to know..

 

[herezor]

I dont think fish have fear or emotions in that sense as zozo says.

I agree completely. The size of the brain of a fish is just enough for their instincts and that is all. No room for emotions or fear or love...They do not recognize their own being as a fish. They are just little machines whose purpose is to contribute to the entropy increase of the environment as all living creatures do

This!
The OP used a poor choice of words & suffered for it I suspect ...

, the OP chose the exact words he wanted to use to generate what he has generated...

And a few frames later they show that famous butterfly with 2 markings on its wings looking like a pair of eyes

This is simply chance. That effect was what worked. The other butterflies with other markings were eaten so their genes coding for those markings did not survive. That particular pattern may have an effect on predators we do not know for sure. Remember that we see the visible spectrum, but other animals see UV etc...

Anyway, what I intended with this post was to check if there was people thinking that fish have emotions, feelings or even fear. I am a believer that most simple animals do not. I am not talking about elephants, monkeys, etc. Mice, fish, daphnia, shrimp... those animals have a brain that contains only a few neurons just to control their physical needs (breath, heart pump, muscle contraction, etc) and very very very very few to control their senses for survival (smell, sight, etc). So, to those people who say "would you like to be kept in a tank full of dirt, well, sure not and fish neither" must think twice that comparison as it is a big nonsense.

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

It remembers me of one day in spain.. I also do speak some spanish and that day in spain i met a lovely girl and thought/tried to say something nice to her.. She bursted out in laughter and walked away. Till today a actualy still do not know what i realy said.. The feeling it gave me, i actualy don't want to know..

Haha, no worries brother. Reminds me of a similar situation with my neighbour, she's Polish and lived in the South of England before moving up North where there's a strong regional dialect often hard to understand even for English people. Round our way we call a little girl a "La'rl Lass" She has a young daughter with white hair and friendly people in the street would comment saying "what a lovely la'rl lass." She came back from the town centre one day totally distraught thinking people had been stopping her in the street and saying she had a lovely ass

I'm into a bit of amateur psychology, humans although they think are unpredictable are actually quite predictable creatures. The flight and fight mechanism is something all living creatures share. There was an experiment where 6 people were put in a room and given information about a bomb that has been planted and three terrorist groups were suspected. They all had to agree on who to retaliate against and given some evidence but had to respond quickly. Even though all evidence pointed to not being the group they picked 5 out of the 6 people still picked that group. They all went with a terrorist group that they knew had done this before. The mechanism doesn't have time to process the information so it reverts to what happened last time and how that panned out. Same with fish, at some point the fish has instinctively merged with a group which saved it's bacon one day and it quickly learned schooling is a good way of protecting itself. Lions and big cats etc will make the same decision, they will look for a straggler so they can focus their attack. It's harder to focus on a potential victim when there are loads of them running about in front of you. The stragglers get picked off and don't pass their poor instinct on to their young. Without doubt animals will make other judgements involving thought process. For instance when a lion has made a kill possible prey will quite happily ignore the lions because they know they are not hungry.

This is similar to my shrimp, first reaction is get away then after they've had time to digest the information they now think it's good to hang around the corys.

 

[zozo]

I give you credit and respect for choosing the word believe..
Be carefull with that, as history already thaught us, believe can be a dangerous phenomenon.

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Anyway, what I intended with this post was to check if there was people thinking that fish have emotions, feelings or even fear

That's a hard one to get with one brush stroke. What is fear? To us we can describe that emotion, connect it with a reason and make a word that people can empathise with. Basically though its just a reaction in the brain and maybe the stomach giving you a feeling of impending doom. I'm sure fish must have some physical reaction going on inside their tiny brains that triggers a response otherwise I'm not sure how the fish would translate a bad situation into forcing a physical reaction to it.

Pain is another one, pain can be switched off as we often do with paracetamol etc. The underlying cause is still there just the receptors in the brain aren't getting the message. I feel sure that fear and pain are two things built into a fish DNA otherwise it would have no trigger to defend or save itself.

Don't know about love, what about shrimp pining, running round looking for their partners after you move some out or Discus partnering for life? It's complicated I guess. Fish not looking their best or discoloured when they are not in favourable conditions. That's not the fishes way of telling us, it's the fishes way of displaying an emotion that it's not happy then we interpret that.

It's hard to weigh up what ranges of emotions fish can deal with. I'm sure they have a few physical triggers that are the equivalent of human ones just they don't mean the same as they do to us. They say being in love has the same physical effects as having flu just we interpret that physical "feeling" depending on our situation.

 

[alto]

It's extremely difficult to measure intelligence in animals - look at older study models vs much newer techniques ...
Fish easily recognise/respond to different colors, they recognise related/unrelated fish within a group, have preferred "friends" within a group, recognize/distinguish between humans ...

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

I don't think we give them as much credit as they deserve. Even the simplest of creatures is a very complex thing.

 

[herezor]

I don't think we give them as much credit as they deserve. Even the simplest of creatures is a very complex thing.

I am very much on the opposite side. I think we give them much more credit than they deserve. They are just fish. They have my credit because they have been on Earth millions of years before us, but that is all