Best LED

[jaypeecee]

...if they could swap out the white LED's they use for combination RGB chips (like those used by ADA, Chihiros, ONF etc) and keep the other red and blue chips they use to broaden the peaks in the red, green and blue sections of the spectrum, they could be onto a winner.

Hi @Wookii

Thanks for the feedback.

One of the reasons I'm drawn to the LEDAquaristik lighting is their choice of LEDs emitting at 450nm and 660nm, which correspond to the peak responses of chlorophyll b and chlorophyll a, respectively. Plus, they do show the resulting spectra for these products. Alas, they don't provide PPF* figures. By contrast, I seem to remember that most Chihiros freshwater lighting in the red emits at 630nm. I suspect that many aquarium lighting manufacturers focus (pun intended!) on lighting aesthetics whilst compromising on healthy growth. And, there's also the potential for some wavelengths to promote Cyanobacteria (aka BGA) and BBA.

*PPF = Photosynthetic Photon Flux

JPC

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi @oreo57

Good to be in touch with you again.

Adjustment of channels 1 - 4 should be able to increase the overall score above 78 - no? And it may increase CRI. BTW, where did you get hold of Spectrum Adviser? Is it a Waveform Lighting tool? It looks pretty good.

JPC

 

[Wookii]

Hi @Wookii

Thanks for the feedback.

One of the reasons I'm drawn to the LEDAquaristik lighting is their choice of LEDs emitting at 450nm and 660nm, which correspond to the peak responses of chlorophyll b and chlorophyll a, respectively. Plus, they do show the resulting spectra for these products. Alas, they don't provide PPF* figures. By contrast, I seem to remember that most Chihiros freshwater lighting in the red emits at 630nm. I suspect that many aquarium lighting manufacturers focus (pun intended!) on lighting aesthetics whilst compromising on healthy growth. And, there's also the potential for some wavelengths to promote Cyanobacteria (aka BGA) and BBA.

*PPF = Photosynthetic Photon Flux

JPC

I'm aware you have no doubt researched this at length John, and ultimately people have to pick a light that is right for them, but my understanding is that, as long as a light provides red and blue light of some sort in sufficient quantities, the precise centre frequency of the spectral peaks is largely irrelevant.

This can be seen easily by the successful plant growth achieved across such a huge variety of light fittings, and lighting types, used in this forum alone. I don't believe any light of sufficient output will compromise plant growth in any way - output being equal, it really does just come down to the aesthetics created by the light, the user features available with it, and of course budget.

Also, if you do feel the exact spectral output is important, if you look at @oreo57's post above on the LEDAquaristik lights, the output at 630nm appear to be only slightly less than that at 660nm in any case - presumably due to the majority of the output coming from the white LED's.

As for the algae, I've been using these RBG LED based lights for some time now, and I've only had a tiny patch of BGA once in amongst some moss where the flow was almost zero. I have had BBA, but for me it was clearly more closely linked to other factors like filter maintenance, which once rectified eliminated the BBA largely permanently. I think with both algae types, there are other factors which have a much larger influence on their prevalence than any possible effect of the spectral output of the light.

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi @Wookii

Rather than reply to each of the points you have made, if you're interested, I would refer you to an expert in the field of plant lighting - Dr Bruce Bugbee. Although his focus (there's that pun again!) seems to be horticultural lighting, I can't see why most of what he says wouldn't also apply to aquarium plants. I have made numerous references to the following video elsewhere on UKAPS but here it is again for convenience:




Listen out for comments he makes such as 'blue light shrinks plants'.

Light spectrum isn't just about growth and aesthetics. It has been demonstrated that there is a phenomenon known as the photoreduction of iron. Wavelengths below 520nm (blue/violet) can release free iron from a type of chelated iron. I'll quote from Diana Walstad's Ecology of the Planted Aquarium:

"Algae grew well under normal light with chelated iron as the only iron source, but when light wavelengths below 520nm were filtered out, the same algae became iron deficient and would not grow". Of course, we couldn't remove all light at wavelengths below 520nm as plants also utilize this part of the spectrum. I guess it's a question of finding the right balance.

It's interesting stuff and relevant to our tanks.

JPC

 

[Wookii]

It's interesting stuff and relevant to our tanks.

JPC

It is very interesting stuff I agree, I'm a tech geek with most of this kind of stuff too, almost to a fault. It would be interesting to see what, if any, difference the inclusion of a greater output in the far red region would make. Given far reds are filtered out quite rapidly by water, it may be that aquatics plants have adapted such that they don't have the same growth response to an increase in it.

However, I would still maintain that the relevance might be limited to the average hobbyist who is able to grow algae free plants under most-any type of light, and who perhaps might not be as interested in single digit percentage changes to production yields or a small change in overall plant width, as they are in the quality of the colour rendition of their aquarium.

 

[jaypeecee]

However, I would still maintain that the relevance might be limited to the average hobbyist who is able to grow algae free plants under most-any type of light, and who perhaps might not be as interested in single digit percentage changes to production yields or a small change in overall plant width, as they are in the quality of the colour rendition of their aquarium.

Hi @Wookii

You may well be right! My point is quite simply that colour rendition alone should not be the only consideration when choosing aquarium lighting. I have tried to show that other factors may need to be considered. Simple as that.

JPC

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

My point is quite simply that colour rendition alone should not be the only consideration when choosing aquarium lighting

You used to be able to buy entirely blue LED arrays for terrestrial plants. I don't know if any-one has tried one as an aquarium light?

cheers Darrel

 

[oreo57]

Hi @oreo57

Good to be in touch with you again.

Adjustment of channels 1 - 4 should be able to increase the overall score above 78 - no? And it may increase CRI. BTW, where did you get hold of Spectrum Adviser? Is it a Waveform Lighting tool? It looks pretty good.

JPC

Well if you are referring to the generated spectrum its sort if complicated.
First need a decent spectrum.
Then you digitize it.
Then clean the data
Then import it into Spectra

SPECTRA

SPECTRA can perform the optical simulation of many required for coral breeding. SPECTRAはサンゴ飼育に必要な多くの光学シミュレーションを行う事が可能です。

spectra.1023world.net

Doesn't work in android afaict

As to dimming.. dropping the blue channel should improve color rendering though only a guess.
Would have to import each channel spectrum and adjust it.

WebPlotDigitizer
Notepad++

 

[oreo57]

It is very interesting stuff I agree, I'm a tech geek with most of this kind of stuff too, almost to a fault. It would be interesting to see what, if any, difference the inclusion of a greater output in the far red region would make. Given far reds are filtered out quite rapidly by water, it may be that aquatics plants have adapted such that they don't have the same growth response to an increase in it.

However, I would still maintain that the relevance might be limited to the average hobbyist who is able to grow algae free plants under most-any type of light, and who perhaps might not be as interested in single digit percentage changes to production yields or a small change in overall plant width, as they are in the quality of the colour rendition of their aquarium.

Best fight against algae is a clean tank w fast growing plants.
Algae can only germinate w free ammonium.
Can't use nitrate nitrogen ect

No germination..no algae.

 

[jaypeecee]

Algae can only germinate w free ammonium.

Hi @oreo57

I've been looking into this very topic recently but I can't find any definitive evidence in support of what you have stated above. Do you have any research papers on this? I'd greatly appreciate being pointed to such research.

JPC

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi @oreo57

Although not a scientific research paper, the following article supports what you were saying:

Nitrate (NO3) and phosphate (PO4) don’t cause algae. Ammonia does!! - Aquarium-fertilizer.com

aquarium-fertilizer.com

JPC

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi Everyone,

In order to kill off algae spores in the water column, the use of UV-C sterilization is worth considering. I used this as part of my battle against cyanobacteria when I discussed it here in post #58:

Cyanobacteria Identification - At Last!

It’s believed to be erythromycin Hi @becks In that case, my understanding is that it wouldn't be considered legal in the UK as it's an antibiotic. JPC

www.ukaps.org

JPC

 

[rebel]

The only Kessil lighting that I saw 'in the flesh' used tie wraps to tidy up the supply wiring - and these tie wraps were on full view. It looked a mess.

This is what I mean. Some of these manufacturers are trolling the users. 🙂 Imagine paying hundreds to get a light that's loud and ugly!!!

 

[rebel]

The AI Prime pulls ahead in all three areas; bags of output even with the warm white LED's turned off completely, fully integrated app control, and whisper quiet fan.

Agree with this. The only wean point is the that 90 degree arm which can sometimes wobble (maybe they fixed it in the newer versions).

Good to hear that the output is good as this was one of my hangups about it.

 

[oreo57]

Hi @oreo57

Although not a scientific research paper, the following article supports what you were saying:

Nitrate (NO3) and phosphate (PO4) don’t cause algae. Ammonia does!! - Aquarium-fertilizer.com

aquarium-fertilizer.com

JPC

Thanks. After you posted it I started questioning my own statement though at the time seemed valid.
I need to check into this more but it doesn't change the observations of clean tanks/ healthy fast growing plants means less algae no matter the light spectrum.

 

[rebel]

Nitrate (NO3) and phosphate (PO4) don’t cause algae. Ammonia does!! - Aquarium-fertilizer.com

aquarium-fertilizer.com

This ammonia hypothesis is 'proven in the hobby' is it not? I thought there was countless conversations about it in the 90s or maybe 2000s in the Barr report forum. EI would somewhat support this also right with huge doses of nitrates etc?

 

[oreo57]

This ammonia hypothesis is 'proven in the hobby' is it not? I thought there was countless conversations about it in the 90s or maybe 2000s in the Barr report forum. EI would somewhat support this also right with huge doses of nitrates etc?

It's pretty common..

Algae is NOT caused by "excess" nitrates and phosphates. Otherwise many aquarists such as myself would have an algae farm when they dose 60+ppm of nitrate per week and dose 15+ppm phosphate per week. Plants do not "outcompete" algae as algae is one of the most primitive organisms around. They need very little nutrient quantities to survive and grow. Limiting nutrients will hurt your plants more than the algae. The only nutrient that "causes" algae is ammonia because it allows the spores to become adults. That is why dosing urea or ammonium nitrate might be risky in the planted aquarium, as a straight source of ammonia in a high enough quantity may spark an algae bloom since there is enough ammonia available to allow the algae spores to become adults.

Note: I am not stating that light "causes" algae. This is because aquatic plants can be grown in the strongest source of light (direct sunlight) without algae, so it goes to show that if you have high enough CO2 and balanced/sufficient fertilizer levels, you won't have an issue with algae even with super strong light sources.

Algae Management and Algae Myths in the Planted Aquarium

Algae management is often one of the most difficult and irritating aspects of the planted aquarium hobby. Without the right management, it is easy for algae blooms to get out of hand, which often leads to a ruined aesthetic and algae-smothered...

www.fishlore.com

Do 'excess nutrients' trigger algae?​

Algae requires nutrients to grow, so the idea that if you have large amounts of nutrients in the water, algae will bloom more easily is an intuitive leap to take. This depends on the type of nutrient in question - not all elements have the same impact on the ecosystem. Not all 'nutrients' are equal so to say. For example, having 100ppm (parts per million) of Calcium or Potassium has no impact on algae present/absence in tanks, but having even small ammonia spikes can trigger algae - thus having a cycled tank with matured bio-filter is helpful.There is generally little argument against these observations among aquatic plant growers.


Folks wonder more about the role of Nitrates, Phosphates, Iron - does excess dosing of these elements cause algae ?


Both algae and plants will grow faster if there are plentiful nutrients in the water. Algae are microscopic and have much lower nutrient requirements to survive compared to aquatic plants. If plants don't do well because they are starving, it will lead to deteriorating old growth. The organic proteins released by deteriorating leaves trigger algae spores that feed off these substances. This is why it is common to see algae attaching to older growth and plants that are not growing well. The opposite is also true; healthy plants are extremely algae resistant. Filling up a tank full of healthy plants is the easiest way to get a good head start in planted tank algae control.

Do excess nutrients trigger algae growth in a planted tank?

Do excess nitrates and phosphates cause algae in a planted aquarium? Is excess nutrients the main cause of algae issues ? This page explores in which situations in which excess nutrients are likely to cause problems and see which cases in which they do not.

www.2hraquarist.com

Personally, when I've had bad BBA outbreaks the one very noticeable factor is .. none on new leaves, none left on dead leaves, healthy bba growth on intermediate leaves i.e probably getting senile and leaky..
I wouldn't rule out a "chain of events" say.. bacteria on the older leaves then BBA.

Mr. Barr "backing off" on ammonia..

Why does ammonium and ammonia cause algae?

www.plantedtank.net

 

[Wookii]

Best fight against algae is a clean tank w fast growing plants.
Algae can only germinate w free ammonium.
Can't use nitrate nitrogen ect

No germination..no algae.

Agree for the most part - healthy growing plants seem to trump algae every time - though I'm yet to see a full and credible explanation of why that is the case.

Every tank must have free ammonium at some level, and I imagine algae spores must require only a miniscule amount of it, given algae can grow in RO water on a window sill in direct sunlight. So I'm not sure free ammonium is the complete answer to algae, or the lack thereof.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

This ammonia hypothesis is 'proven in the hobby' is it not?

Algae can only germinate w free ammonium.

I think the problem really lies with the term "algae" and imagining that there is one trigger for a grouping of organisms <"that covers every form of photosynthetic organism">.

If you look at the phylogeny of the photosynthetic organisms you can see that the <"Green Algae and Higher Plants form a clade"> and are much more closely related to one another than they are to any of the other photosynthetic organisms. One reason we know that the Green Algae, Mosses, Ferns and Flowering Plants are closely related is that they share the same photosynthetic pathways and basic physiology.

There is also <"ecology to take into account">, in the same way that some plants are <"turned up to eleven plants"> so are some "algae" that are associated with <"low nutrient conditions">.

cheers Darrel

 

[oreo57]

Agree for the most part - healthy growing plants seem to trump algae every time - though I'm yet to see a full and credible explanation of why that is the case.

Every tank must have free ammonium at some level, and I imagine algae spores must require only a So I'm not sure free ammonium is the complete answer to algae, or the lack thereof.

Agree for the most part - healthy growing plants seem to trump algae every time - though I'm yet to see a full and credible explanation of why that is the case.

given algae can grow in RO water on a window sill in direct sunlight. So I'm not sure free ammonium is the complete answer to algae, or the lack thereof.

Dust...🙂
You can't make chlorophyll without N.
No it isn't the complete answer. Nothing is ever simple.