Apistogramas died

[nijat11]

Sorry, can you send me the model of the sump or the size of the chambers. (I can then calculate volume of media).

It is custom made, 130*40*45

 

[Bradders]

OK, so I have done some math! (I am so sad!)

WARNING: This is all VERY rough and should be used as a VERY rough guide. It is also subjective for many, so I would use this as data to use or discard.

Just looking at your fish only, you have 78 fish, which equals 169.5 Fish Inches in the aquarium. When you look at the metabolic weight of your fish, you need 540.53 square feet of effective surface area media to ensure very clean and clear water. NOTE: you don't need this amount for ammonia or nitrite only - this is for very clear water and maintaining bacteria levels in the water column effectively - the more the filtration surface area, the cleaner the water. (Of course, this also means the filtration has to be fully mature to ensure that bacteria has developed).

Looking at your sump (and making some very large assumptions!), you have a theoretical max volume of 3,570 cubic inches per chamber—a total of 10,710 cubic inches for all three chambers. The school of thought here is that you need 100 Square Feet of effective media surface area to provide very clean water per 454 grams of fish. Every media has a different effective surface area. i.e. you only need 660 Cubic inches (0.38 cubic feet) of 20PPI foam to get 100 Square Feet of Effective Surface Area. Conversely, you need 4,320 cubic inches (2.5 cubic feet) of Biohome to get 100 Square Feet of Effective Surface Area. Depending on your media loading (and doing some math), you are just below or above the requirement of 540.53 feet/2. NOTE: One sump chamber, which is 100% full of Biohome, does not provide 100 Square Feet of Effective Surface Area. One sump chamber 100% full of foam provides ~540 feet/2 of Effective Surface Area.

As a result of the above, if your aquarium filter media is 60% of the sump's capacity, you might fall shy of matching the right surface area to cope with the fish load. This could mean that your water could contain more bacteria in the water column, which could stress the fish's immune system more.

Since foam and plastic media like K1 and HEL-X 13 have a more effective surface area (even more if you use a moving bed filter), you could increase the capacity by using them in your sump. An example of the difference is seen below, showing that a 60% filter media loading gives you 973.61 Feet/2 of effective surface area - well above your current fish loading requirement. At 100% loading, then you are looking at a whopping 1622 feet/2. You could equate the 100% loading to supporting three times the amount of fish (in bio-load terms, not ethical terms) than you do now!

As I said at the start, not everyone buys into this approach, and it therefore needs to be used as part of your data. However, I used this approach in my aquarium when I found that my fish bio-load was at 115% of the filter capacity, and my water was clear but not really, really clear. I added another filter, and the water is clear, and my fish deaths have slowed significantly. So I have some faith that it helped me go in the right direction to a more stable aquarium.

Hope this helps a little! At least I had some Christmas fun doing some math and equations! 😀

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I added another filter, and the water is clear, and my fish deaths have slowed significantly. So I have some faith that it helped me go in the right direction to a more stable aquarium.

I'm pleased things have improved and <"stability is a good thing">, but I'd guess the second filter isn't actually that important in terms of improved nitrification, although it will have added flow and <"I'd guess that is more important">.

I know views on this vary, but personally I don't want my <"filter to act as a syphon so I'd look on any "improved" mechanical filtration"> (in the filter body) as a negative rather than a positive. Sumps are slightly different, because access is easier, and you can use your sump as a prefilter.

I don't think there is anything wrong with what you have written (and I'd certainly agree about the filter media), but unless <"you supply sufficient dissolved oxygen">, so that its level always exceeds the <"Biochemical Oxygen Demand"> (BOD) of the system, it just <"isn't that relevant">.

You may be interested in the <"Aquarium Science"> web pages <"7. Aquarium Filter Media"> where he has used a similar approach and keeps fish at <"insane stocking levels">.

Because @nijat11 has a sump and planted tank I'm going to say they are probably all right.

As I said at the start, not everyone buys into this approach, and it therefore needs to be used as part of your data.

I've got an analogy for you <"Flow rate.">.

You are invited, at short notice, to a meeting by your IT services. There is only one agenda item, it is "how do you drink a glass of water?"
Right at the start of the meeting you say "I've drunk water, you pick the glass up and swallow the water", and they say "you aren't here to offer any input, you are purely a box ticking exercise" and "We have already identified the most effective process for drinking water, it is to splash it out of the glass with a spoon and then catch the droplets in your mouth".
The meeting starts, but the only discussion is about the optimal shape for glass and spoon.

I think the problem is that most discussions, about media type and amount, are all about the "optimal shape for glass and spoon".

cheers Darrel

 

[Bradders]

I'm pleased things have improved and <"stability is a good thing">, but I'd guess the second filter isn't actually that important in terms of improved nitrification, although it will have added flow and <"I'd guess that is more important">.

I 100% agree with that. There was more than enough filtration for nitrification. In fact, one filter was probably overkill using my Oase 250 on a 100L tank!

I know views on this vary, but personally I don't want my <"filter to act as a syphon so I'd look on any "improved" mechanical filtration"> (in the filter body) as a negative rather than a positive. Sumps are slightly different, because access is easier, and you can use your sump as a prefilter.

I think I understand what you are saying, and therefore I think I agree. My Oase has a pre-filter which is basically the only thing that I clean. Yes, that pre-filter is in the actual unit, but it protects the HEL-X and Foams in the main chamber from being touched for months or, sometimes, years. i.e. the less that is disturbed, the better.

I don't think there is anything wrong with what you have written (and I'd certainly agree about the filter media), but unless <"you supply sufficient dissolved oxygen">, so that its level always exceeds the <"Biochemical Oxygen Demand"> (BOD) of the system, it just <"isn't that relevant">.

Yes, the filter media has been a bit of a learning curve for me. I was very surprised at the difference between the different types! In terms of your point about DO supply, can you elaborate so I can understand/learn? I think you are saying that you need enough dissolved oxygen to pass over the filter media so that it can 'feed' the bacteria. Is that what you are saying?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

in terms of your point about DO supply, can you elaborate so I can understand/learn? I think you are saying that you need enough dissolved oxygen to pass over the filter media so that it can 'feed' the bacteria. Is that what you are saying?

Exactly that, it is just a matter of priorities.

I think of it like "Emergency First Aid", there is no point in putting a plaster on the cut on the casualties leg, if they have a huge wound on their torso that you are ignoring for the moment. Dissolved oxygen is always the parameter you need to triage first.

I've had the <"good fortune"> to visit <"a lot of wastewater works"> and they aren't too bothered about the TAN content of the effluent, they are <"just interested in oxygen">. Have a look at <"Will fishless cycling harm plants?">.

This is the <"activated sludge process">.



cheers Darrel

 

[_Maq_]

I've read though this thread, and to the topic - Apistogrammas died - I'd stick to general rule: Apistogrammas are sensitive fish. It's no shame to be less than successful with them. To succeed, you must not underestimate anything. At best, keep them alone in pairs, soft acidic water, well-oxygenated, with minimum organic pollution. And always, always right after acquiring them do treat them with recommended deworming medicaments.

 

[Conort2]

I've read though this thread, and to the topic - Apistogrammas died - I'd stick to general rule: Apistogrammas are sensitive fish. It's no shame to be less than successful with them. To succeed, you must not underestimate anything. At best, keep them alone in pairs, soft acidic water, well-oxygenated, with minimum organic pollution. And always, always right after acquiring them do treat them with recommended deworming medicaments.

I agree with @_Maq_ theres a high chance they could just be from a poor source. If all your other fish are ok I’d try not to worry too much about it. No one likes losing fish but unfortunately it does happen sometimes.

Cheers

 

[Bradders]

To succeed, you must not underestimate anything.

Yep, I agree with that. My focus was quite insular, but as you and @dw1305 say, this is a multi-faceted hobby!

 

[Guest]

I’d say this is a bit bizarre. It definitely wouldn’t be under feeding, and I don’t think it will be a higher amount of bacteria in water column due to insufficient filtration (due to a lot of plant growth). I don’t think it’s due directly to flow either as there would be areas of the tank that they could avoid it. I don’t think it’s internal parasites as for all the fish to die so suddenly with eachother seems odd, internal parasites often have other signs.

I have thoughts:

New flow caused fish to congregate which caused stress and or fighting. Resulting in death.

The new pump was not clean, so it introduced something weaker fish were unable to survive.

Either way, seems like you’re over this now. I know “flow is king” but for fish, it rarely is.

 

[Bradders]

I know “flow is king” but for fish, it rarely is.

I have this struggle as well. I have pretty good flow through my aquarium, but actually, that is to the detriment of fish comfort. i.e. its probably okay for plants, but it is a bit strong for the fish.

Never really seem to be able to settle on an equilibrium where all my plants are gently swaying in the flow without a guppy getting pushed across when entering that flow!

 

[nijat11]

So after all of this discussion.
I`m going to try pair of german blue rams from another store.
Lets see how it will go.

 

[nijat11]

So, I got pair of GBR three weeks ago from another shop. I raised temp to 25, and so far seems they are doing fine.
I will post you on progress.

 

[nijat11]

Update. It is been more than months since I have purchased 2 german blue rams and so far they are doing great, very active, eating good and good coloration.
So my assumption by the time when I lost my apistos I had some kind bacterial infection, I cant think anything else what could cause their death.

 

[nijat11]

Off topic, wild apistos capturing

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

wild apistos capturing

Nice. Those are all? Mikrogeophagus ramirezi.

cheers Darrel

 

[simon_the_plant_nerd]

I had terrible luck with my rams. Have since acquired two gold rams who are doing really well touch wood.

 

[nijat11]

Again, one of apistos died, so probanly the other one will die within couple of weeks