Ammonia Time Bomb Carpet

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I've failed to re-find the Koi video that I watched, but this blog post ("Anoxic filtration system"), has much the same information. This is the filter from above:

Anoxic filter with some Water hyacinth ( E. crassipes) floating in it. No aquatic plants are in the Biocenosis baskets themselves, they remain bare. For those that say this is a Veggie filter or Bog filter, this is proof that it is not plant dependent at all. The Biocenosis baskets look like they are covered with a sheet of glass it's so clear.

But this is the pond:


And this is the "anoxic" filter in situ.


There is also a skimmer and bead filter.

It is obviously a successful system, but I'm very dubious of how much of that is to do with the anoxic denitrification,

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
This isn't the video (he says that the plant health has nothing to do with nitrogen) but I'm pretty sure this was the filter he showed. (from <"Anoxic filtration systems">)



cheers Darrel

 

[gabriel.basso]

Wow looks nice...

You see there are a lot of different approaches to filtration, fertilization and so on.. each one has its pro and cons.

Whether this Dr is right or wrong he deserves my respect since he put his hands on and is searching new ways to maintain a closed system.

Hopefully there will always be new experiments so we can evolve and choose which path to follow. Try and error moves the world.




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[dw1305]

Hi all,

Wow looks nice...
You see there are a lot of different approaches to filtration, fertilization and so on.. each one has its pro and cons

Yes, looks great and is definitely successful, stable and resilient. It doesn't really matter how you get there.

The "biocenosis" buckets he has constructed will work for both aerobic nitrification and anaerobic denitrification, this isn't because they have special properties, it is what happens naturally in mature substrates. I like a substrate, and a tank with emergent and floating plants, because these produce the zones of fluctuating REDOX value that he is interested in, and plant/microbe systems (which he has) are much more efficient at biological filtration. It is the plant/microbe filtration that is important, and this can be entirely aerobic (have a look at <bioremediation using Eichornia">), the denitrification bit isn't that important.

This is from the blog in July 2013. This is absolutely what you want from plant growth in a bio-filter, it is the biofilter that is important.

Whether this Dr is right or wrong he deserves my respect since he put his hands on and is searching new ways to maintain a closed system. Hopefully there will always be new experiments so we can evolve and choose which path to follow. Try and error moves the world.

Yes that is pretty much it, it is only by experimentation and record keeping (the scientific method) that allows you to move forward. Scientists are very interested in <"quantifying nitrification and denitrification during waste water treatment in constructed wetlands">.

If you look at <"Anoxic filtration systems"> he says

Each biocenosis basket acts like a giant magnet that attracts ions (positive ions) out of solution; I explain that in my blog. So the nitrogen cycle as you know it and have explained, is not relevant with the Anoxic filter. High oxygen loving bacteria are not its primary reliance; that is only with conventional filtration.

This is just wrong, you can oxidise aqueous NH3 to N2 gas using photoelectrocatalytic oxidation, but this process doesn't. The conversion is still oxygen intensive and he is getting conventional nitrification NH3 > NO2 > NO3, and then uptake by plants and (some) denitrification NO3 > N2 gas.

The difference between ecology (and that is really where we are) and other sciences is that there are lots and lots of variables that interact is a variety of ways.

Whatever he says they aren't really closed systems, he isn't changing much water, but he is topping up with low conductivity water and you can see that in the pond system will have a very considerable amount of evaporation (you have a large gas exchange surface).

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I should also have said that in the ANAMMOX process you don't have full nitrification - NH3(4+) → NO2 → NO3, and the final electron acceptor is nitrite (NO2-). You still need three molecules of oxygen (O2) for every two molecules of ammonium during the initial aerobic partial nitrification.

It occurs naturally, particularly in the shallow seas, and they've used this in sewage treatment, but it works better at higher temperatures and pH, and the ANAMMOX bacteria are very slow growing. It may occur in mature aquarium substrates (I'm not sure any-one has looked) and therefore in the biocenosis buckets as well.

I would be very surprised if it was a significant factor, but I don't know of any research (using N15 labelled NH3) which quantifies this.

The schematic is:

Partial nitrification: 2NH4+ + 3O2 → 2NO2− + 4H+ + 2H2O

Denitrification: NH4+ + NO2− → N2 + 2 H2O + ~15% NO3

cheers Darrel

 

[ScapingScotsman]

Hi all,Yes, looks great and is definitely successful, stable and resilient. It doesn't really matter how you get there.

The "biocenosis" buckets he has constructed will work for both aerobic nitrification and anaerobic denitrification, this isn't because they have special properties, it is what happens naturally in mature substrates. I like a substrate, and a tank with emergent and floating plants, because these produce the zones of fluctuating REDOX value that he is interested in, and plant/microbe systems (which he has) are much more efficient at biological filtration. It is the plant/microbe filtration that is important, and this can be entirely aerobic (have a look at <bioremediation using Eichornia">), the denitrification bit isn't that important.

This is from the blog in July 2013. This is absolutely what you want from plant growth in a bio-filter, it is the biofilter that is important. View attachment 137399
Yes that is pretty much it, it is only by experimentation and record keeping (the scientific method) that allows you to move forward. Scientists are very interested in <"quantifying nitrification and denitrification during waste water treatment in constructed wetlands">.
If you look at <"Anoxic filtration systems"> he saysThis is just wrong, you can oxidise aqueous NH3 to N2 gas using photoelectrocatalytic oxidation, but this process doesn't. The conversion is still oxygen intensive and he is getting conventional nitrification NH3 > NO2 > NO3, and then uptake by plants and (some) denitrification NO3 > N2 gas.

The difference between ecology (and that is really where we are) and other sciences is that there are lots and lots of variables that interact is a variety of ways.

Whatever he says they aren't really closed systems, he isn't changing much water, but he is topping up with low conductivity water and you can see that in the pond system will have a very considerable amount of evaporation (you have a large gas exchange surface).

cheers Darrel

I've been following some of your content on these bcb baskets and Mr novak Darrel, and couldn't agree more. Reading various videos online, looking at the comments within them, people are raving as if it's a complete miracle. But to me, many planted hobbyists have used 'kitty litter' with laterite under for donkeys, which is effectively the same thing. I cannot grasp his take on why it works so well, when we have media ourselves that attract ions, but also slow moving water through our substrates and, plants doing the filtration also and what not. I'm baffled. He doesn't sound remotely reassuring in his posts so cannot understand the massive following it's accruing?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I've been following some of your content on these bcb baskets and Mr novak Darrel, and couldn't agree more. Reading various videos online, looking at the comments within them, people are raving as if it's a complete miracle.

Unfortunately it doesn't matter what we say, or think, and it <"really, really p*sses me off">.

Personally I realise I've been flippant, at times, about both the <"Duckweed Index"> and <"Cycling">, but they have an <"under-pinning of science"> and there is a valid scientific rationale for why they might work.

In terms of <"Biocensosis Buckets">? I think there are a <"number of reasons"> why they've become popular again. One is just that we live in a <"post truth world">, an <"age of massive disinformation"> where there are many <"alternative facts"> and much deliberate misinformation <"by the purveyors"> of many of <"these products">.

If the majority of the population believes that Jacob Rees-Mogg etc. has their best interests at heart, it is quite a short stretch to believe what Dr Novak says about his <"Biocensosis Buckets"> and if nobody <"calls him out">? It will just carry on happening and we will have ever more <"magic bullets">.

cheers Darrel

 

[_Maq_]

I'm very dubious of how much of that is to do with the anoxic denitrification,

If pH is over 8, ammonia evaporation may be more significant than denitrification. The system seems to be well-oxygenated; I imagine anoxic reactors look differently, to say the least.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

The system seems to be well-oxygenated; I imagine anoxic reactors look differently, to say the least.

They are <"sealed vessels">. This is from "A nitrogen removal system to limit water exchange for recirculating freshwater aquarium using DHS-USB" reactor" where aerobic = down-flow hanging sponge (DHS) & anaerobic = an up-flow sludge blanket (USB)

You get waste water (and aquacuture) reactors where there is either a <"spatial (or temporal) separation"> between the aerobic and anaerobic processes.

If pH is over 8, ammonia evaporation may be more significant than denitrification.

I'm guessing that conventional aerobic microbial nitrification and <"plant uptake and incorporation into proteins"> is the route which all (or nearly all) the fixed nitrogen is taking.

If you post this photo, and then say plants are irrelevant, for me you've lost any form of credibility straight away, for the reasons outlined in <"The scientific background to the "Leaf Colour Chart"">.



cheers Darrel