Amazon sword help

[jellybean]

Hi all, I need help with an Amazon sword that is in my 100 gallon tank. I've had this plant for a couple of years and it was moved to this tank in May 2023. All has been good with it until the last couple of months. The leaves have begun to turn pale, both old and new.

Tank info:
100 gallons
RO water, remineralized to 3 dKh and 8 dGh
Fertilizer is PPS-Pro using GLA fertilizers
Macros: 500 ml bottle with 29.3 grams of K2SO4, KNO3 32.6 grams, KH2PO4 2.9 grams, MGSO4 20.2 grams. Dose is 10 ml daily.
Micros: 500ml bottle with 28.6 grams of GLA MicroMix (EDTA + DTPA). Not sure how to determine how much of each element I'm dosing but the analysis is : chelated iron - 7.0%, chelated manganese - 2.0%, chelated Zinc - 0.4%, chelated copper - 0.1%, Molybdenum - 0.06%, Boron - 1.3%, EDTA - 42%, DTPA - 14%. Dose is 5 ml daily. [There is also info that states to "expect an increase of 0.05ppm Fe per every 27 milligrams of the Micromix added to a 10 gallon aquarium."]
Lighting is Finnex HLC x4 (30 inches each light.) The light has weird scheduling but it comes on at 6am with 10% of RGBW. That stays the same until it ramps up to 10% RGB and 20% W at noon. Then ramps back down to 10% RGBW at 3pm. Blue only at 6pm then off at 9pm. I'ved used this same schedule for years with these lights on different tanks with success. This tank only had two of these lights for a few months but I added two more (to get more light front to back) a couple of months ago.
No CO2.
Oase Biomaster 650 on one end an an Oase Biomaster 250 on the other end. Plenty of flow. All the plants sway gently. Pre-filters changed weekly.
Pool filter sand substrate. I occasionally add a few Osmocote+ balls around the sword and it usually greens up nicely when I do that but not now.
Mostly low light plants which are all doing well except for the sword.
Weekly 25% (or so) water change. TDS is around 280. I switched from GLA Booster (with the added K+) to just Mg/Ca in an effort to reduce the TDS. It has come down from around 340.
I'm attaching a FTS as well as close-ups of the sword leaves.
Please let me know what info I've forgotten to include!

Thanks!!!

 

[Tim Harrison]

Could be iron deficiency. Or looks like something might be grazing on them. Do you have a plec?

 

[jellybean]

Wow, that's a quick reply. GLA sells a EDTA Chelated Iron 13% and a DTPA at 11%. Which one should I get? Or is there something else instead of the GLA products?

 

[Tim Harrison]

Haha, equally quick response. Taking a closer look at the pics looks like something might be grazing on them, a plec?

 

[jellybean]

No plec. Otos, corys, pearl gouramis, harlequin and lambchop rasboras, a few ramshorn snails, and a few RCS.

 

[Tim Harrison]

Any other plants showing signs of deficiency?

 

[jellybean]

This other small sword. New leaves look good but I keep trimming off the older leaves. Also added a couple of Osmocote+ balls to it a couple of weeks ago.

 

[jellybean]

Frogbit

 

[_Maq_]

RO water, remineralized to 3 dKh and 8 dGh

While I can imagine that increased hardness may be beneficial in some instances, I don't gather why you increase alkalinity to 3 °dKH?

Dose is 10 ml daily.

I suggest not to dose macros and micros (esp. iron) on the same day. Undesired precipitation may occur.

I don't fully understand your fertilization/mineralization but I hope calcium is not missing in the formula. Plus I suspect that you overdose potassium.

 

[jellybean]

I was told by a shrimp keeper that 3 dKH was appropriate for keeping RCS. So that's why I keep it there. I'm completely open to reducing it.

The GLA fertilizer instructions say to dose both macros and micros on the same day but that's something I can certainly ask them about. Thanks for the tip.

I've eliminated the potassium from the mineralization now and just use Ca:Mg at around a 3:1 ratio. At least that's what I think it is.

Thanks for bringing those points up.

 

[John q]

Macros: 500 ml bottle with 29.3 grams of K2SO4, KNO3 32.6 grams, KH2PO4 2.9 grams, MGSO4 20.2 grams. Dose is 10 ml daily.

This is adding daily in ppm. No3 1.06, K 1.4 , Po4 0.11, Mg 0.11.

Micros: 500ml bottle with 28.6 grams of GLA 5ml daily.

Not sure how to determine how much of each element I'm dosing

I think this adds daily 0.0529 ppm Fe, of this 0.0302 is in the form of Edta.
Seems an identical mix to Plant prod micro mix.

Plant-Prod Chelated Micronutrient Fertilizer Mix - Master Plant-Prod Inc.

Plant-Prod Chelated Micronutrient Fertilizer Mix is a water soluble micronutrient mix which can be used as a supplement where deficiencies exist for crops grown in soil or in a regular feeding program for crops grown in artificial and soilless media.

www.plantprod.com

Personally I'd keep dosing the same amount of both micro and macros per week but split the doses into 3 and dose Macro/Micro on alternate days and see if that helps.
So 70ml Macro =3x 23ml daily. Micro 35ml = 3x 11.6ml daily.

 

[MichaelJ]

Hi all, I need help with an Amazon sword that is in my 100 gallon tank. I've had this plant for a couple of years and it was moved to this tank in May 2023. All has been good with it until the last couple of months. The leaves have begun to turn pale, both old and new.

Tank info:
100 gallons
RO water, remineralized to 3 dKh and 8 dGh
Fertilizer is PPS-Pro using GLA fertilizers
Macros: 500 ml bottle with 29.3 grams of K2SO4, KNO3 32.6 grams, KH2PO4 2.9 grams, MGSO4 20.2 grams. Dose is 10 ml daily.
Micros: 500ml bottle with 28.6 grams of GLA MicroMix (EDTA + DTPA). Not sure how to determine how much of each element I'm dosing but the analysis is : chelated iron - 7.0%, chelated manganese - 2.0%, chelated Zinc - 0.4%, chelated copper - 0.1%, Molybdenum - 0.06%, Boron - 1.3%, EDTA - 42%, DTPA - 14%. Dose is 5 ml daily. [There is also info that states to "expect an increase of 0.05ppm Fe per every 27 milligrams of the Micromix added to a 10 gallon aquarium."]
Lighting is Finnex HLC x4 (30 inches each light.) The light has weird scheduling but it comes on at 6am with 10% of RGBW. That stays the same until it ramps up to 10% RGB and 20% W at noon. Then ramps back down to 10% RGBW at 3pm. Blue only at 6pm then off at 9pm. I'ved used this same schedule for years with these lights on different tanks with success. This tank only had two of these lights for a few months but I added two more (to get more light front to back) a couple of months ago.
No CO2.
Oase Biomaster 650 on one end an an Oase Biomaster 250 on the other end. Plenty of flow. All the plants sway gently. Pre-filters changed weekly.
Pool filter sand substrate. I occasionally add a few Osmocote+ balls around the sword and it usually greens up nicely when I do that but not now.
Mostly low light plants which are all doing well except for the sword.
Weekly 25% (or so) water change. TDS is around 280. I switched from GLA Booster (with the added K+) to just Mg/Ca in an effort to reduce the TDS. It has come down from around 340.
I'm attaching a FTS as well as close-ups of the sword leaves.
Please let me know what info I've forgotten to include!

Thanks!!!

Hello @jellybean various variants of Echinodorus is one of the few plants I have had nothing but success with on and off for decades... It's a plant sp. that can grow and thrive under a vast range of water parameters and dosing regimes, hence its firm position in the Easy Category... if not being the King of the Easy Category (?).... However, when first well established under whatever conditions you provide it tend to dislike change, such as abrupt change in water conditions, light etc... so thats going to be my question: what condition did you have in that tank where it came from and what changes did you make to your tank since you moved it?

I noticed your light is very reddish....(color temperature is always hard to judge from a picture as it relies heavily on the white balance applied by the camera). I wonder if your tank is getting enough energy in the blue end (higher energy) of the spectrum. This might be one of the rare incidences where I would recommend tweaking the light temperature (ie. add more blue).

One other question: What is your pH?

I was told by a shrimp keeper that 3 dKH was appropriate for keeping RCS. So that's why I keep it there. I'm completely open to reducing it.

Shrimps do not care about dKH ... I successfully keep everything from Cherry, Bamboo, Tiger and recently Tangerine at 0.5 dKH and ~4.5 dGH (~4:1 Ca:Mg ratio). Besides a reasonable amount of Calcium and Magnesium, the key with most dwarf shrimps is to maintain a low EC (TDS) around 150-300 us/cm (75-150 ppm TDS) - the values are not cut in stone as long as they are stable and not excessive. If you start reducing dKH/dGH do so slowly over the course of a few weeks - abrupt changes are generally a bad thing for our aquatic livestock, plants and microbial communities.

Randomly:

Your frogbit looks okay to me btw,

Also added a couple of Osmocote+ balls to it a couple of weeks ago.

Based on your fertilizer description above, that just seems unnecessary to me. Osmocote contains Ammonium Nitrate and although its released slowly (depending on pH and other factors) I don't think it's ever necessary to force-feed your plants by the roots with that stuff in a low-tech tank. I have used it a couple of times and didn't really appreciate much of a positive effect. Mature healthy substrate, moderate or lean water column dosing and good flow and oxygenation is all you need in a low-tech tank.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[jellybean]

Thanks @MichaelJ for your thoughts and questions.

what condition did you have in that tank where it came from and what changes did you make to your tank since you moved it?

The sword did really well after moving it in May. It’s really been growing and beautiful. I looked back at my notes and I first mentioned yellow leaves on it in late November. The week prior I had switched from GLA Booster back to the recipe I had used previously. I got it from another planted tank forum (supposed to be a Salty Shrimp Bee Shrimp clone.). I just used the Ca/Mg from the recipe and left out the Mg and micro mix that it calls for and that I had used before. Trying to lower the TDS. Maybe that’s when all this started?? Maybe the Mg/micros were helpful for some reason? The TDS was 372 (!) on 11/20 and has now fallen to 295. Too fast? Kh and Gh have been stable the whole time. I have an unopened bag of APT Sky that I could use if using something off the shelf would be helpful.

I noticed your light is very reddish....(color temperature is always hard to judge from a picture as it relies heavily on the white balance applied by the camera). I wonder if your tank is getting enough energy in the blue (higher energy) of the spectrum. This might be one of the rare incidences where I would recommend tweaking the light temperature (ie. add more blue).

Yes, you’re right. It is very red. I forgot to mention that I had increased the red last week. Green and blue are still at 10% but I bumped red to 40%. I was toying with the idea that I liked the look better having no idea it might be contributing to the problems with the sword. I can easily bump the red down or just increase the blue. What do you suggest?

Shrimps do not care about dKH ... I successfully keep everything from Cherry, Bamboo, Tiger and recently Tangerine at 0.5 dKH and ~4.5 dGH (~4:1 Ca:Mg ratio)

Noted. I will start decreasing that slowly also. I use Potassium Bicarbonate, btw. Just in case that’s important.

One other question: What is your pH?

6.8 using an API test kit.

And no more Osmocote. Thanks for that. I was just concerned that something specific was happening with the sword since everything else is ok.

Thanks so much for your help.

 

[jellybean]

Duplicate post deleted. Sorry.

 

[MichaelJ]

Thanks @MichaelJ for your thoughts and questions.



The sword did really well after moving it in May. It’s really been growing and beautiful. I looked back at my notes and I first mentioned yellow leaves on it in late November. The week prior I had switched from GLA Booster back to the recipe I had used previously. I got it from another planted tank forum (supposed to be a Salty Shrimp Bee Shrimp clone.). I just used the Ca/Mg from the recipe and left out the Mg and micro mix that it calls for and that I had used before. Trying to lower the TDS. Maybe that’s when all this started??

Yes, bar any serious leaching of minerals from your hardscape or substrate, the reason why your TDS is creeping is (partly) because of your dosing regime as far as I can tell. You are running a low-tech tank. You really do not need much fertilizer of any kind in such a tank - your plant mass is not that high either relative to the size of your tank.

What you should consider - and this is an approach that works for many of us especially with low-tech tanks - is to simplify and streamline your dosing and remineralization regime.

After water change just add the Calcium and Magnesium to your RO water (targeting the WC amount) you think your tank will eventually be good at sustaining - given that you're keeping shrimps, Ca in the 20-30 ppm range and Mg in the 6-9 ppm range will suffice (and provide enough Ca and Mg for your plants). This will yield a dGH somewhere between 4 and 6. If you wish to raise the KH in your WC water to say 0.6 dKH just add 1 grams of CaCO3 to your 25 gallons of WC water (95 L) which will give you 4 ppm of additional Ca (far below the solubility limit).

As an example of remineralization targeting the weekly WC water:

WC amount 25 US Gallon (~95 L):

CaSO4 targeting 20 ppm of Ca, add 8 grams (yields 2.8 dGH)
MgSO4 targeting 7 ppm of Mg, add 7 grams (yields 1.7 dGH)
CaCO3 targeting 0.6 dKH add 1 gram (adds 4 ppm of Ca yields 0.6 dKH/dGH)

Total Ca: 24 ppm
Total dGH ~5

Next, just add the NPK components (dry salts) to your WC water targeting the NPK needs of the tank for the duration between WC's - also known as front loading.

The current salts you are using will provide way too much potassium, so you may want to revise that.

Weekly Fertilizer example:

Say 1.5 ppm N (7 ppm of NO3) , 0.25 ppm P (0.6 ppm of PO4), 1.5 ppm K. For a moderately planted low tech tank this should suffice - I target quite a bit less in my own two much more densely planted low-tech tanks with a very similar mix of easy plants.

378 Liter (100 US Gallon) weekly:

Mg(NO3) targeting 1.5 ppm N, add 5 grams.
KH2PO4 targeting 0.25 ppm P, add ~0.5 gram.
KHCO3 targeting 1 ppm of K, add 1 grams. (yields 1.4 ppm K with the addition of the KH2PO4 above ...)

Finally, add some traces (only) targeting the whole tank volume say 0.1 ppm of Fe after the WC and perhaps once again mid week if needed - I.e if your pH is elevated.

Thats it!

Cheers,
Michael

 

[_Maq_]

@jellybean, I strongly back @MichaelJ's advice. I would do the same, almost exactly.
I only want to add that Ca : Mg ratio is not that all important. It is overdosing potassium which may be harmful. There should not be more potassium than magnesium in the water, broadly speaking. (An ideal ratio is close to K : Mg : Ca = 1 : 3 : 10, and K : NO3 = 1 : 5. Surprising as these ratios may be, they work. Generally, people hugely overdose potassium.)

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Or looks like something might be grazing on them. Do you have a plec?

I'd be <"really, really surprised"> if that wasn't grazing by <"a Loricariid catfish">.

No plec. Otos

Do you <"feed your Otocinclus"> any green vegetables? French Beans, Zucchini, Capsicum pepper, Cucumber etc. If you don't? I'd start and I'd expect that will stop happening.

Frogbit

Plant health looks fine. That one looks like it might be <"Limnobium spongia">, which isn't a species I've grown.

The week prior I had switched from GLA Booster back to the recipe I had used previously. I got it from another planted tank forum (supposed to be a Salty Shrimp Bee Shrimp clone.). I just used the Ca/Mg from the recipe and left out the Mg and micro mix that it calls for and that I had used before. Trying to lower the TDS. Maybe that’s when all this started?? Maybe the Mg/micros were helpful for some reason? The TDS was 372 (!) on 11/20 and has now fallen to 295. Too fast? Kh and Gh have been stable the whole time. I have an unopened bag of APT Sky that I could use if using something off the shelf would be helpful.

What @MichaelJ, @_Maq_ & @John q say, you don't need to remineralise your water to anything like that degree.

cheers Darrel

 

[jellybean]

Ok, you have a new convert. Front loading it shall be.

There’s so much here to study and digest! I use a 32 gallon Brute trash can for my RO and I don’t know exactly how much water I put in it. (There is a float valve a few inches from the top.) Probably around 29 gallons so I’ll start with that number for doing my calculations. I’m sure I will have questions as I go along but I’m anxious to give this a try.

Do you <"feed your Otocinclus"> any green vegetables? French Beans, Zucchini, Capsicum pepper, Cucumber etc. If you don't? I'd start and I'd expect that will stop happening.

I used to add a blanched kale leaf to the tank and they would devour it but now they ignore it. I will try some of the other options you listed and see if they are interested.

Thanks to all of you for your help. I can hardly believe there are folks like you out in the world offering so much of your time.

 

[MichaelJ]

Probably around 29 gallons so I’ll start with that number for doing my calculations. I’m sure I will have questions as I go along but I’m anxious to give this a try.

While it wont matter a whole lot, but if you wish to follow the prescription above just multiply the grams stated above by (29/25) = 1.16 and round it off to something practical - say instead of 8 grams of CaSO4 you would add 9.28 grams or simply 9 grams.

I only want to add that Ca : Mg ratio is not that all important.

I agree... I don't think you can go wrong by being in the 3:1 to 4:1 range.

It is overdosing potassium which may be harmful. There should not be more potassium than magnesium in the water, broadly speaking. (An ideal ratio is close to K : Mg : Ca = 1 : 3 : 10, and K : NO3 = 1 : 5. Surprising as these ratios may be, they work.

👍

Generally, people hugely overdose potassium.)

I think the culprit is especially the commonly used KNO3 where you get almost 3 times the amount of K vs. N .... and of course remineralizer products such as Seachem Equllibrium where you pummel your tank with potassium even for relatively modest amounts of Calcium/Magnesium. For PO4 dosing on the other hand, the amount of K you get from KnnPO4 (say KH2PO4) is usually quite modest if you're targeting a realistic amount of P, that is.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[jellybean]

While it wont matter a whole lot, but if you wish to follow the prescription above just multiply the grams stated above by (29/25) = 1.16 and round it off to something practical - say instead of 8 grams of CaSO4 you would add 9.28 grams or simply 9 grams.

Thanks. I did the calculations for 29 gallons in the Rotala Butterfly calculator and printed them for a reference. I was also just trying to understand how it all works. Good to know it doesn't have to be exact.

I think the culprit is especially the commonly used KNO3 where you get almost 3 times the amount of K vs. N .... and of course remineralizer products such as Seachem Equllibrium where you pummel your tank with potassium even for relatively modest amounts of Calcium/Magnesium. For PO4 dosing on the other hand, the amount of K you get from KnnPO4 (say KH2PO4) is usually quite modest if you're targeting a realistic amount of P, that is.

I've had aquariums off and on most of my life but have only been doing planted tanks for a couple of years. I started with Equilibrium, switched to the Bee Shrimp clone, then to the GLA GH Booster. I'm happy to finally be landing on something that seems to make more sense to me. And hopefully I've found a formula that I can stick with from now on.

I've ordered the MgNO3 and the CaCo3 as I didn't have those on hand. They should be here by the end of the week.

I think this adds daily 0.0529 ppm Fe, of this 0.0302 is in the form of Edta.
Seems an identical mix to Plant prod micro mix.

Finally, add some traces (only) targeting the whole tank volume say 0.1 ppm of Fe after the WC and perhaps once again mid week if needed - I.e if your pH is elevated.

So should I continue to use the same GLA Micro Mix as I was using before?

Next question ... do you measure and add the individual salts to the RO water each week? Or do you mix up a combo with all the salts in the right proportions then just use a certain amount of that? Say, you multiply everything by 10, add that to a container, then add 1/10 of that to the RO water each week? Dumb question?