Alternative causes of bba

[Qwedfg]

I have been struggling with bba for about 6 months. It has recently gotten a bit better and receded on my hard scape but I am still having some growth on buce, Java fern and s repens. I have been checking my co2 levels using a ph pen and my degassed ph is 7.5 and my co2 when lights turn on is 6.2. I am starting to slowly increase my co2 and trying to hit a full 1.5 ph drop but I feel like for most people they don’t have such a fight with co2 and they don’t have persistent problems with bba.

I have also read it could be related to organic material. I vacuum the detritus off my substrate monthly and cleaned my filter a couple months ago but didn’t see much change in bba.

I have also noticed my stems and hc don’t grow very quickly compared to my past tanks. The tank in question is a waterbox 16 with a chihiros wrgb2 set to about 35 percent strength with ei dosing and ro water used for changes. I generally try to remineralize use magnesium and calcium sulfate back to about 120 tds using a 4:1 ratio of ça to mg. I also notice some weird twisted leaves on my rotala green in particular.. I’m not sure what the missing component is. Would it be better to switch from csm+b to seachem flourish as I read it’s more comprehensive? I’m starting to get a bit frustrated after setting up the tank more than a year ago and still having persistent problems. Please any help would be appreciated!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I generally try to remineralize use magnesium and calcium sulfate back to about 120 tds using a 4:1 ratio of ça to mg.

That is much more dGH than you need. There isn't really any advantage to using RO if you are going to then add a lot of calcium (Ca) to it. Magnesium (Mg) you are adding with your fertiliser already. Plants don't actually need much calcium.

Would it be better to switch from csm+b to seachem flourish as I read it’s more comprehensive?

I'm guessing not. Plants need all <"fourteen of the essential elements for plant growth"> and any of them can be <"Liebig's limiting nutrient">, but for most micro-elements the difference is between none and some and "some is enough". @Happi or @_Maq_ can give you a more nuanced view.

and they don’t have persistent problems with bba.

We just don't know why it grows, but we have some incredibly long and inconclusive threads. <"What exactly causes BBA?"> & <"What exactly causes BBA? Part 2 - Bacterial imbalance">.

Personally? I'm pretty sure that grazing by <"Ramshorn Snails works">, but only in the long term.

cheers Darrel

 

[MichaelJ]

That is much more dGH than you need. There isn't really any advantage to using RO if you are going to then add a lot of calcium (Ca) to it. Magnesium (Mg) you are adding with your fertiliser already. Plants don't actually need much calcium.

Darrel, I agree. Although CaSO4 adds a lot of S per ppm of Ca. (Something like 8 ppm of S per 10 ppm of Ca) 120 ppm TDS sounds like the OP is targeting a rather high GH. Unnecessary unless you’re keeping livestock that requires it. When I target 5.5 GH in one of my tanks WC water just adding the CaSO4 and MgSo4 my TDS comes out around 80 ppm / 160 uS/cm. It doesn’t quite add up with the S and Ca, Mg content due to the varying charges but it’s not too far off. If I had to take a guess I would think the OP is targeting around 6-7 dGH what say you @Qwedfg?

Cheers,
Michael

 

[The grumpy one]

Personally? I'm pretty sure that grazing by <"Ramshorn Snails works">, but only in the long term

I would agree with this. 2 years and a lot of Ramshorn Snails. I keep seeing little bits of BBA and think "Noooo here we go", but it just does not establish.
Good old Ramshorn. Another reason not to dread the snail outbreak.

 

[MichaelJ]

I would agree with this. 2 years and a lot of Ramshorn Snails. I keep seeing little bits of BBA and think "Noooo here we go", but it just does not establish.
Good old Ramshorn. Another reason not to dread the snail outbreak.

I’m a big Ramshorn fan as well. They struggle in my super soft water tank (white shells) but are thriving in my moderately hard (~5.5 GH) shrimp tank.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Happi]

I have been struggling with bba for about 6 months. It has recently gotten a bit better and receded on my hard scape but I am still having some growth on buce, Java fern and s repens. I have been checking my co2 levels using a ph pen and my degassed ph is 7.5 and my co2 when lights turn on is 6.2. I am starting to slowly increase my co2 and trying to hit a full 1.5 ph drop but I feel like for most people they don’t have such a fight with co2 and they don’t have persistent problems with bba.

I have also read it could be related to organic material. I vacuum the detritus off my substrate monthly and cleaned my filter a couple months ago but didn’t see much change in bba.

I have also noticed my stems and hc don’t grow very quickly compared to my past tanks. The tank in question is a waterbox 16 with a chihiros wrgb2 set to about 35 percent strength with ei dosing and ro water used for changes. I generally try to remineralize use magnesium and calcium sulfate back to about 120 tds using a 4:1 ratio of ça to mg. I also notice some weird twisted leaves on my rotala green in particular.. I’m not sure what the missing component is. Would it be better to switch from csm+b to seachem flourish as I read it’s more comprehensive? I’m starting to get a bit frustrated after setting up the tank more than a year ago and still having persistent problems. Please any help would be appreciated!

I normally advice against using a csm+b, you should explore other options if you cannot DIY the micros from scratch. What other options do you have? Seachem Trace is good but not very cost effective. I might be able to recommend something decent depending on where you live.

BBA issue is strongly related to Overdosing of Micros and Fe, along with improper flow and too much co2. I would suggest not overdosing the Iron and Micros. do not use spray type flow that is too strong and swing everything in the tank, while you still want to have a high turnover rate but try to keep a gentle flow using different style fitting. I use bigger pvc outlet where the flow appear gentle, but the water is still moving in and out at 1200 gph.

If you are using very high level of co2, especially that produce lot of bubbles inside the aquarium, very high spray type flow, along with high organic material such as driftwood, you are inviting BBA. This matter is even worse when you overdose on Iron and Micros. Disturbing the substrate can make things worse, I do not see any reason to disturb the substrate that is planted.

Using co2 reactor with gentle flow with high turnover rate, along with proper Micro/Fe dosing is another option to consider.

 

[xZaiox]

I had a very long and arduous battle with BBA in my tank. I spent the better part of a whole year trying one thing or another. Information everywhere online keeps repeating it's mainly a co2 issue, so I spent a loooong time adjusting my co2 one way or another. I eventually went as high as a 1.5 pH drop, stable within 0.1 from start to end of the day... yet I couldn't understand why I still had BBA despite everywhere saying it's a co2 problem.

BBA issue is strongly related to Overdosing of Micros and Fe, along with improper flow and too much co2.

Happi was kind enough to reach out to me and help me with my tank, and as it turned out, my problem was excessive iron dosing. Since reducing iron, my BBA has reduced 90%+ and has stopped growing. I initially started with the standard 0.5ppm Fe per week as is standard in EI, and I moved up to 1ppm weekly. I tried different chelators such as EDTA, DTPA, EDDHA, EDDHSA and Gluconate. After reducing my iron dosage to a total of 0.26 (0.21 EDDHSA and 0.05 gluconate), the BBA reduced. I plan to reduce my iron dosage further when I make up my next micro batch.

By the way, I'm not saying iron is "the" cause, just that reducing the dosage in my tank has stopped it growing. BBA probably has different sets of triggers for growth. I found that excessive flow definitely aggravated it... when I had my wavemaker turned on, it would bloom wherever it blew, and turning it off ended up killing the BBA that was in the path of flow. I also find excessive organics likely contributes... when things get dirty it seems to thrive more.

 

[Qwedfg]

Thanks everyone for your advice.

I target 120 tds as I watched a green aqua video where they target that level for their tanks and I have red cherry shrimp which were previously having molting problems that was alleviated by increased calcium dosing. The reason I use ro water is I am on a well and had some issues with my water when i first started my tank.

I had a very long and arduous battle with BBA in my tank. I spent the better part of a whole year trying one thing or another. Information everywhere online keeps repeating it's mainly a co2 issue, so I spent a loooong time adjusting my co2 one way or another. I eventually went as high as a 1.5 pH drop, stable within 0.1 from start to end of the day... yet I couldn't understand why I still had BBA despite everywhere saying it's a co2 problem.

Happi was kind enough to reach out to me and help me with my tank, and as it turned out, my problem was excessive iron dosing. Since reducing iron, my BBA has reduced 90%+ and has stopped growing. I initially started with the standard 0.5ppm Fe per week as is standard in EI, and I moved up to 1ppm weekly. I tried different chelators such as EDTA, DTPA, EDDHA, EDDHSA and Gluconate. After reducing my iron dosage to a total of 0.26 (0.21 EDDHSA and 0.05 gluconate), the BBA reduced. I plan to reduce my iron dosage further when I make up my next micro batch.

By the way, I'm not saying iron is "the" cause, just that reducing the dosage in my tank has stopped it growing. BBA probably has different sets of triggers for growth. I found that excessive flow definitely aggravated it... when I had my wavemaker turned on, it would bloom wherever it blew, and turning it off ended up killing the BBA that was in the path of flow. I also find excessive organics likely contributes... when things get dirty it seems to thrive more.

This is very interesting as I think I dose a lot of iron....

For micros I add the equivalent of .2 ppm of iron via csm+b and .2 ppm of DPTA per week. I think excess iron may be a contributing factor as it seems I am adding too much as its twice as much as you are dosing... I will reduce iron dosing and check back in. I only have cherry shrimp and 4 oto in my tank...I feed 1 cube of super green every other day so I don't think my tank is very dirty and I have been paying more attention to cleaning detritus after I read it can contribute to bba.

edit

I just looked at greggz dosing schedule and it seems he adds .2 ppm gluconate and .2 ppm dtpa per week. I am still perplexed.

 

[hypnogogia]

When I target 5.5 GH in one of my tanks WC water just adding the CaSO4 and MgSo4 my TDS comes out around 80 ppm / 160 uS/cm

Interesting, I target 5.5 as well by adding Mg and CaSO4. The IFC calculator tells me that it will give me a TDS of 128,

 

[xZaiox]

I just looked at greggz dosing schedule and it seems he adds .2 ppm gluconate and .2 ppm dtpa per week. I am still perplexed.

I personally think with these issues "there are many ways to skin a cat". Perhaps high iron is not the sole cause, but if reducing it gets rid of the BBA, then it's still a win? I have a feeling other conditions may invite it in, and high iron may fuel it's growth. That's pure speculation on my part though... All I know, is that over the years I've seen many different things affect it's growth, but reducing iron is the main thing that made a massive dent in it.

Tom Barr has said in the past he's dosed multiple ppm of iron, which is magnitudes higher than most people. Yet his tanks remain free of BBA.... he's also known to do large (50%+) water changes several times per week, which is far more than most people do. Perhaps he can get away with high iron because his organics are kept so low? Perhaps his large water changes prevent iron from accumulating in the first place? I don't know... but iron has been key to the BBA in my tank.

Also, just fyi, gluconate will not last very long in a tank, it will generally precipitate quite rapidly.

 

[Qwedfg]

I was just looking through my word document with my dosing formulas, playing around with RotalaButterfly and using greggz dosing data as a reference and think I may be a bit confused and messed up my dosing.

According to RotalaButterfly, it says I should add 1/64 tsp of DTPA 3 times a week. This looks like it adds .2ppm of iron each time I dose....this is in addition to the CSM+B which also adds .2 ppm per dose? RotalaButterfly says I should add 1/32 tsp 3 times a week of csm+b as well...

Now going back and looking at Greggz info it seems he is adding .2ppm of Fe gluconate and .2 ppm of DPTA per WEEK....

Am I slow on the up take here? I've double checked RotalaButterfly multiple times and this is what its telling me for dosing which seems far higher than Greggz is adding in retrospec. Given my dosing schedule I am adding 1.2 ppm of iron per week....

 

[MichaelJ]

Interesting, I target 5.5 as well by adding Mg and CaSO4. The IFC calculator tells me that it will give me a TDS of 128,

Well @Hanuman and @Zeus. who wrote the fabulous IFC calculator will have to tell us how they derived at that number - I believe Hanuman once told us he empirically measured various salts - which is the right approach - but I am not sure what reference frame (factor going from EC to TDS) he was using. One thing is for sure; various salts at same actual ppm will yield different conductivities due to charge differences. And the TDS will depend on the conversion factor used by the meter to translate the EC to TDS. So if your EC is 160 uS/cm it translate into 80 ppm, 102 ppm, 112 ppm... depending on whether the conversion factor is 0.5, 0.64 or 0.7 which are the most commonly used conversion factors. The factor depends in part on what solution (KCL, NaCl, 442) is used for reference and calibration. So if your TDS meters is calibrated against a KCL solution (factor 0.5 which is now widely recognized as the international standard) your TDS meter will really only be accurate when measuring Potassium Chloride dissolved in pure water ... of course, for all intended purposes in the hobby that is just fine, but TDS is still a cause of confusion due the varying exchange rates.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[hypnogogia]

Well @Hanuman and @Zeus. who wrote the fabulous IFC calculator will have to tell us how they derived at that number - I believe Hanuman once told us he empirically measured various salts - which is the right approach - but I am not sure what reference frame (factor going from EC to TDS) he was using. One thing is for sure; various salts at same actual ppm will yield different conductivities due to charge differences. And the TDS will depend on the conversion factor used by the meter to translate the EC to TDS. So if your EC is 160 uS/cm it translate into 80 ppm, 102 ppm, 112 ppm... depending on whether the conversion factor is 0.5, 0.64 or 0.7 which are the most commonly used conversion factors. The factor depends in part on what solution (KCL, NaCl, 442) is used for reference and calibration. So if your TDS meters is calibrated against a KCL solution (factor 0.5 which is now widely recognized as the international standard) your TDS meter will really only be accurate when measuring Potassium Chloride dissolved in pure water ... of course, for all intended purposes in the hobby that is just fine.

Cheers,
Michael

Thanks Michael. I had assumed the TDS values in the calculator would be derived from an actual calculation…if you know how much of a salt is added to a specified amount of water, then presumably the tds can be calculated by clever people who understand these things much better than I.
I shall measure mine next time I remineralise some RO and check how it compares to the IFC calculator.

 

[xZaiox]

According to RotalaButterfly, it says I should add 1/64 tsp of DTPA 3 times a week. This looks like it adds .2ppm of iron each time I dose....this is in addition to the CSM+B which also adds .2 ppm per dose? RotalaButterfly says I should add 1/32 tsp 3 times a week of csm+b as well...

Now going back and looking at Greggz info it seems he is adding .2ppm of Fe gluconate and .2 ppm of DPTA per WEEK....

Am I slow on the up take here? I've double checked RotalaButterfly multiple times and this is what its telling me for dosing which seems far higher than Greggz is adding in retrospec. Given my dosing schedule I am adding 1.2 ppm of iron per week....

I would invest in some micro scales, you can get pretty accurate ones cheaply. The issue I have with spoon measurements is they can be quite vague... not all spoons are equal, and the difference between a level and 'heaped' scoop can be quite substantial. Micro scales will tell you exactly how much you have in milligrams, which is important when working with smaller quantities of things such as micro ferts.

I googled your tank and it appears to be 60 litres? If so, then 109mg of 11% DTPA iron will add 0.2ppm of iron to your tank. Do note that different strengths exist for DTPA iron, so yours may or may not be 11%.

 

[Qwedfg]

I would invest in some micro scales, you can get pretty accurate ones cheaply. The issue I have with spoon measurements is they can be quite vague... not all spoons are equal, and the difference between a level and 'heaped' scoop can be quite substantial. Micro scales will tell you exactly how much you have in milligrams, which is important when working with smaller quantities of things such as micro ferts.

I googled your tank and it appears to be 60 litres? If so, then 109mg of 11% DTPA iron will add 0.2ppm of iron to your tank. Do note that different strengths exist for DTPA iron, so yours may or may not be 11%.

Correct my tank is 60l it has the same dimensions as a 60p. The dtpa is 11% I purchased it from green leaf aquarium . I will look into a scale. Do you think I should reduce micro dosing and stop dosing dtpa?

 

[MichaelJ]

Thanks Michael. I had assumed the TDS values in the calculator would be derived from an actual calculation…if you know how much of a salt is added to a specified amount of water, then presumably the tds can be calculated by clever people who understand these things much better than I.
I shall measure mine next time I remineralise some RO and check how it compares to the IFC calculator.

Well, it can be calculated but it will be an approximation. A TDS meter is not actually measuring the Total Dissolved Solids in a liquid per se. It measures the electrical conductivity and derive an approximate TDS value from that. Only a gravimetric analysis can determine the actual amount of dissolved solids.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[xZaiox]

Do you think I should reduce micro dosing and stop dosing dtpa?

Absolutely reduce the iron, yes. Your tank definitely doesn't need 1.2ppm of iron per week. As Happi advised above, your best bet would be to get individual micro ferts and make your own micro mix, because you have much more control of what is in it that way.
CSM+B usually uses EDTA for the iron chelation, which isn't much good unless you run a rather acidic tank. DTPA is a more appropriate chelator for your water. I've also found EDDHSA to be a great chelator, it doesn't stain the water like EDDHA does and it holds through a wide pH range.

 

[Zeus.]

Well @Hanuman and @Zeus. who wrote the fabulous IFC calculator will have to tell us how they derived at that number -

Easy, we used the number of ions and cations and a simple formula which yields an approx TDS, which @Hanuman did a quick check with TDS meter with various masses of salts in RO water, the results was both the calculations and tests was in the same order of magnitude. Hence it was a very simple addition to the IFC

 

[Qwedfg]

I just went through and made a spreadsheet comparing the element concentrations for Greggz's micro dosing, seachem flourish at EI levels (.6 ppm of iron per week), seachem flourish at .2 ppm of iron per week, CSM+B at .6 ppm of iron per week and CSM+B at .2 ppm of iron per week. It looks like CSM+B at .2 ppm iron per week has the most similarity to what Greggz doses except there is a little less boron, a little more zinc, it uses EDTA instead of gluconate for iron and it doesn't contain nickel (neither does seachem). I am going to lower my dose to .2 ppm of iron via CSM+B and .2 ppm of DPTA per week and see how it goes.

 

[Hanuman]

Well @Hanuman and @Zeus. who wrote the fabulous IFC calculator will have to tell us how they derived at that number - I believe Hanuman once told us he empirically measured various salts - which is the right approach - but I am not sure what reference frame (factor going from EC to TDS) he was using.

Thanks Michael. I had assumed the TDS values in the calculator would be derived from an actual calculation…

It is. It was also measured to double check.

Well, it can be calculated but it will be an approximation. A TDS meter is not actually measuring the Total Dissolved Solids in a liquid per se. It measures the electrical conductivity and derive an approximate TDS value from that. Only a gravimetric analysis can determine the actual amount of dissolved solids.

Yeap, that one.

Easy, we used the number of ions and cations and a simple formula which yields an approx TDS, which @Hanuman did a quick check with TDS meter with various masses of salts in RO water, the results was both the calculations and tests was in the same order of magnitude. Hence it was a very simple addition to the IFC

And to corroborate that we verified with TDS and Electrical Conductivity - Lenntech which allows you to calculate TDS values.