A reflection - putting it all into one scape

[JoshP12]

Not really lol - say I bought my first tank yesterday, how do I know if I have soft water or hard water? What if my water is kind of middling lol? What if I'm a tap water user, and my source water is softer in the winter (due to rain water run-off) than the summer?

If you just bought a tank, I’d say dose ferts on the bottle daily dose and send me a photo in a week.
.

I'm playing devils advocate here of course, as I have no personal allegiance to any particular type of dosing, other than what I would recommend to a brand new planted tank owner - but in that one sentence you've introduced a plethora of variables and uncertainty which is exactly what a prescriptive system should aim to avoid for someone who has never even heard of dry ferts before.

When I was given this advice on my first ever tank, the words EI brought fourth a whole lot of stress 🤣. Because everyone goes down the rabbit hole when you “do EI” … people who don’t go down the rabbit hole always just dose the bottle.

It's called the Estimative Index 😜

Hehe. So what EI? To me, it’s a concept. You can dose 2 ppm NO3 and be in “EI state”.

There again it depends on the user to some extent as to exactly what defines the sweet spot. I'm a maintenance-phobe, so the sweet spot for me is the point where I get clean plant growth and an algae free tank, with the minimum of trimming. 100 PAR at the substrate is beyond that point I'd say. You're shooting for perfect compact plant form, so your target might be higher..

You also have to be realistic on what can be achieved on the average tank. I think we can agree that something like a Chihiros Vivid II or ADA Solar RGB are some of the brightest commercial lights available. Place those 200-300mm above a 450mm deep tank, and you're probably not going to be hitting more than 200 PAR at the centre at substrate level, with the lights on full whack - so 600 PAR is completely unrealistic unless set up with multiple high output point source lights as you have done.

I also don't know many people that would argue that a Vivid II at 100% or a Solar RGB isn't high light?

I had said to you before that high light means just turn your light that you buy to 100 and move on. That’s not that good. But everyone who buys any of these lights immediately runs it at 50. Why not just run your light at 100 and move on ?

ADA, Green aqua, aquaflora, IAPLC etc anyone I’ve read who does this commercially does the light at 100.

Maybe the commercially is the piece.

The argument for too much nutrients being an issue is the plant can take care of it. The argument for co2 being an issue is that (well it is very hard to put co2 in excess to causes issues 10lbs in under a week is nonsense).

So? Why not just give carte blanche light and let the plant “deal with it”.

all of your argument against it are bang on so I’ll see if I can draft a pros list.

Arguably, This is just as rediculous as dosing high column ferts for the sake of “making sure the plant has enough light”.

But people still dose EI when we all know it’s beyond overkill except in extremely hard water.

So in the UK, full EI is a great recommendation to a beginner. But when a USA comes on and reads that on one of the best forums for the hobby, and they Lard in EI in their moderate water (since most of USA is moderate/soft) and has issues, then that’s where the discrepancy lies.

So perhaps, we give recommendation by location and highest likelihood of water. But that sucks too. 45 minutes away, the water is GH 20 😂.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

how do I know if I have soft water or hard water? What if my water is kind of middling lol? What if I'm a tap water user, and my source water is softer in the winter (due to rain water run-off) than the summer?

That is actually the starting point for both Estimative and <"Duckweed"> indices, you don't need to know anything about your water parameters and you don't need to attempt to <"measure nutrient levels with test kits">, you just follow, either method, in a <"painting by numbers"> approach.

I was pretty sure that I understood the drivers for successful <"long term tank maintenance">, but also that they <"weren't things you could easily quantify">, so the method I used (the "Duckweed Index") needed be a "recipe" to follow, that wasn't too complicated and <"worked in (nearly) all circumstances">.

The hope was always that, once the tank owner had stability (and healthy growing plants), they could branch off menu and start creating their own recipes.

cheers Darrel

 

[plantnoobdude]

Perhaps the lack of boron allow the bacterial upper hand?

Yes, that’s what I’m thinking.

 

[JoshP12]

Yes, that’s what I’m thinking.

Is dosing boron clearing it?

 

[JoshP12]

Clearing up

 

[plantnoobdude]

Is dosing boron clearing it?

Not sure as I have been procrastinating pretty hard core and can’t be bothered to make a micro mix😅

Clearing up

View attachment 197636

Brilliant plant forms, bet they’re stuffing them selves full with that ammonia😀

 

[JoshP12]

Not sure as I have been procrastinating pretty hard core and can’t be bothered to make a micro mix😅

This is the exact reason I use csm … I get angry enough mixing macros 😂.

Brilliant plant forms, bet they’re stuffing them selves full with that ammonia😀

Thanks .

Haha they’re gargantuan — I’m supposed to be lean dosing … but they look EI! Think only proper dosing exists!

 

[John q]

Clearing up

I told you dressing up in goat leggings and offering a sacrifice to the god of green water would solve the issue. 😁

I'm either guessing you did a massive water change, or took wookii's advice and lowerd the light intensity to 30% lol.

Plants are obviously unfazed by the pea soup, they look in rude health.

 

[JoshP12]

I told you dressing up in goat leggings and offering a sacrifice to the god of green water would solve the issue. 😁

Tried to write a witty response. Didn’t come up with one … lol.

I'm either guessing you did a massive water change, or took wookii's advice and lowerd the light intensity to 30% lol.

Just a single water change - uvs been on a few days.

God of green water said I need to leave lights at 100.

Plants are obviously unfazed by the pea soup, they look in rude health.

.

 

[JoshP12]

Going to do another water and some maintenance today.

Some pre shots

Lol Monte carlo

Very bottom of glass that I never wiped away to see if it would spread. Has not.

Monte carlo

Can see kind of where I left it alone and let the system calm down.

 

[JoshP12]

Didn’t get to the water change - hope to soon.

But, I forgot to turn on the power heads after the last water change so we’ve been running on just the filter.

Flow is perfect, growth looks good. So I’m happy.

But if you remember a few pages ago, I cut the filters and the tank melted then I turned them on and it fixed.

At the time I was pretty sure it was consequential of the flow (but then why now is it ok?) … I had also done the 6 waters for clarity and trimmed loads. Could the massive change have triggers the melt, the flow instantly fixed it (I did leave it off for a day and it was not getting better). It’s a prime example of how we know absolutely nothing unless you do microscopic changes but even then it’s futile.

It’s actually futile.

There is a chance that perhaps since the tank is maturing it can handle less turnover now. That’s possible.

But more and more it just seems that we get the big things right. And when something goes wrong fix the big things. 😂.

Co2, flow, ferts, light, maintenance, time.

The closer you follow a standard the more of those things are taken care of.

Standard tank dimensions, Lilly pipe, aqua soil, remineralizer and RO, all these things add up to success.

Water changes. Regular and consistent fertilizing regime.

REMOVING JELLY 😝.

I’m just not convinced that startup is best with low light . Hahaha

😱… I just realized I’ve been dosing 20% daily dose with my doser. That’s why I have algae 😂😂. Must be. Violates that golden ratio.

Just goes to show how nothing matters 🤪.

 

[Nikmon]

What a awsum read. Cracking way to start a sunday lay in bed.

 

[JoshP12]

@John q is co2 close to lights on yet?

 

[John q]

@John q is co2 close to lights on yet?

In my own tank? Shaved about an hour of it mate, but still have a 3hr ramp.

 

[JoshP12]

In my own tank? Shaved about an hour of it mate, but still have a 3hr ramp.

Yep - planning for more? Closer to timed with lights?

 

[John q]

planning for more?

Yes but will probably have to start tweaking the injection rate up, and for that to happen I'd prefer to be at home to monitor the tanks for a few days.
Most likely tinkering will resume over the christmas holiday period.

 

[JoshP12]

Yes but will probably have to start tweaking the injection rate up, and for that to happen

I think that’s the rub. If you do that and the tank can maintain a higher injection rate without any I’ll effect, you have effectively saturated more co2 than any “ramp time” could facilitate —- probability that you’ll have a healthier system (as long as no Ill effect).

But it also doesn’t need to be max drop by lights on. Just max drop around 45 mins in right? Or you might get a major drop at 6 hours.

I'd prefer to be at home to monitor the tanks for a few days.
Most likely tinkering will resume over the christmas holiday period.

It will be a very merry Christmas perhaps .

 

[JoshP12]

Well …

Algae and cloudy has really come to a standstill. Has stopped proliferating and has started to decline on its own.

All in all, lost a bit of Monte Carlo … but it’s come back from the ashes:

Helferi is long gone.

Guess it worked … now I need to trim and replant until I get enough Monte Carlo to properly carpet the thing for our initial vision …

 

[John q]

Guess it worked

The power of goat leggings, lol.

 

[JoshP12]

Been scratching my head wondering - now what? Or what was the point of this?

And my comment on @RickyV thread kind of brought it out.

I don't think it is that surprised that it worked. And I think it affirms for me a few things about "high light".

This was the piece: So you bottleneck the co2 demand (that is forced by the light) and let the plant adapt (in color/shape) to control the light.

Now it is not quite fleshed out enough but I think the concept is this:
1) The concept of EI is provide everything in abundance.
2) The common advice is to do exactly that but turn your light way down to reduce the "demand"

I think it's not the "right" direction we should go. It works. But I don't think it's the "best".

i) I wouldn't tell someone who is brand new to buy a tank, buy some inert gravel, dose EI column, and turn their lights to 30% .

ii) I would tell them, buy a tank, buy some aquasoil, dose a fraction in the column, and run your lights at 100%. If they are buying aquasoil, why on earth would they dose EI (for the 2 days before the roots show up? or the rhizosphere isn't there? @22802 experiment on CEC illustrates that the soil will just dose an EI column for you anyways.) Buy the soil, dose meager, let it dose EI for you in the column, let it equilibriate, finished.

Why not also turn your light to 30 and do ii) ? Don't have a good answer yet.

You "EI" the light.
You "EI" the ferts (but put the EI in the substrate).
And you EI CO2 ... that's another discussion.

You can't see how much is in the soil ... but you can see the plants, so when they look hungry, dose more. This is the foundation of the @dw1305 duckweed index anyways.

Let the plants have an abundance of EVERYTHING and let them decide what they want. Let them turn pretty colors. Let them change the orientation of their leaves. Let them adjust their leaf shape. All of these things moderate light (and energy) intake.

Don't: give them an abundance of everything and starve them of light? It violates the principle of EI.

We often say that light drives co2 ... and that is entirely true ... but what if something chokes the co2 demand even further ... leidbig's law dictates that anyways ... and light is a nutrient in leidbig ... so choke the demand with ferts in the column (since the leaf can't mitigate NO3 and PO4 in their leaves like it can potassium - to some extent) -- but give the EI in the substrate with roots (since they are more powerful than leaves and can choose more freely - with the assistance of rhizosphere).

What do we think?

PS slowly it is becoming more concise!