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A bit of help please guys with BBA, C02 and ferts

www.2hraquarist.com

Surface agitation & gaseous exchange in CO2 injected tanks

Surface agitation in a planted aquarium - yes or not ? This page explores why having some surface agitation and turnover is actually useful in planted tanks and actually makes tuning CO2 to optimal levels more easy.
www.2hraquarist.com www.2hraquarist.com

the diagram in the linked page shows how the flow reaches the substrate level - which implies that the flow has to be pretty strong in order to achieve that.

In UKAPS there are also discussions about the use of a spraybar as helping with flow to the substrate level.
 
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Keetchy said:
Thanks bud. OK I can look into getting a skimmer lily pipe glassware set. I suppose this way I can take my Eheim surface skimmer out of the tank. I will move the inlet and outlet pipes to the side walls of the tank too. I do notice all AG tanks have the outlet and inlet next to each other and flowing the water across the front panel of the tank from side to side. So I can try this at some point.
So how do I get water movement across the whole base of the tank at substrate level? Without affecting the plants? Surely a powerhead at substrate level will affect the growth of the plants, as it they will all be pushed at an angle instead of growing straight up. Or have I pictured this wrong?
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The hardscape and plants are obstacles and the filter outlet might struggle circulating the water around the tank. In larger tanks, the water flow might also not be able to reach the opposite side of the tank. It really depends on the size of the tank, on the impact of the hardscape and plants, and the mechanism you use to circulate the water (spray bar, jet nozzle, lily pipe, ...)

A power head/wave maker/circulation pump is a simple and effective way to improve the overall water circulation not only near the substrate level but all around the tank. This is important because it improves the overall distribution of CO2 and nutrients, which will contributes to healthy plant growth (and less algae). Now, you do not want to blast the plants (and livestock) with a strong current of water. So, you will to need to adjust the placement and direction of the flow as well as the output of the power head (easier if you get a power head with controllable output). It will be a matter of trying out different placements until the flow and circulation are optimized. IMO, it is much simpler to improve circulation if you add a power head. Using just the filter outlet works in smaller tanks but is harder to optimize.
 
arcturus said:
The hardscape and plants are obstacles and the filter outlet might struggle circulating the water around the tank. In larger tanks, the water flow might also not be able to reach the opposite side of the tank. It really depends on the size of the tank, on the impact of the hardscape and plants, and the mechanism you use to circulate the water (spray bar, jet nozzle, lily pipe, ...)

A power head/wave maker/circulation pump is a simple and effective way to improve the overall water circulation not only near the substrate level but all around the tank. This is important because it improves the overall distribution of CO2 and nutrients, which will contributes to healthy plant growth (and less algae). Now, you do not want to blast the plants (and livestock) with a strong current of water. So, you will to need to adjust the placement and direction of the flow as well as the output of the power head (easier if you get a power head with controllable output). It will be a matter of trying out different placements until the flow and circulation are optimized. IMO, it is much simpler to improve circulation if you add a power head. Using just the filter outlet works in smaller tanks but is harder to optimize.
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I can judge the amount of flow in the tank by watching where the micro C02 bubbles get blown around right? That and movement of the plants.

So my next goal is to get a skimmer lily pipe set for my filter and fit that. The filter is powerful enough for my tank. I have a 160 litre tank and the filter is spec'd at 1000lph. Now I know manufacturers overrate the specs but even if 1000lph is more than what it actually physically turns over, I still think the filter I got it big enough for my tank.

With the skimmer lily pipe set fitted, I will remove my Eheim surface skimmer and look into an affordable adjustable powerhead and have that on hand ready to be fitted if needed.

Until then, I will carry on with my every other day 50% WCs and carry on cutting out any leaves I see with algae on.

After watching a video on one of your links, I haven't been blowing the substrate with a turkey baster while siphoning the water. So this is something i will add into my WC routine
 
Keetchy said:
I can judge the amount of flow in the tank by watching where the micro C02 bubbles get blown around right? That and movement of the plants.

So my next goal is to get a skimmer lily pipe set for my filter and fit that. The filter is powerful enough for my tank. I have a 160 litre tank and the filter is spec'd at 1000lph. Now I know manufacturers overrate the specs but even if 1000lph is more than what it actually physically turns over, I still think the filter I got it big enough for my tank.
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Yes, watching where the bubbles go does give an indication of flow. As we can't see your tank, you are in the best position to assess whether the flow is strong enough. My own experience is that if you want a Lily pipe to push the water down to the substrate level as shown in the photo from the 2hr aquarist link, the flow has to be pretty strong (we are talking about 10-20x rather than just 6x - look at the flowrate in the George Farmer video I linked to - that tank is an Aquascaper 600 which is 99 litres and the filter George normally uses for his Aquascaper 600 setups appears to be the Biomaster 600 which is 1250l/hr. So a powerhead will definitely help.
 
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erwin123 said:

Yes, watching where the bubbles go does give an indication of flow. As we can't see your tank, you are in the best position to assess whether the flow is strong enough. My own experience is that if you want a Lily pipe to push the water down to the substrate level as shown in the photo from the 2hr aquarist link, the flow has to be pretty strong (we are talking about 10-20x rather than just 6x - look at the flowrate in the George Farmer video I linked to - that tank is an Aquascaper 600 which is 99 litres and the filter George normally uses for his Aquascaper 600 setups appears to be the Biomaster 600 which is 1250l/hr. So a powerhead will definitely help.
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I'll check out the video. Thanks. Wow so in that case I am underpowered with my filter. I'll definitely get a powerhead then. I'll assess the flow once I got the lily pipe fitted but most likely have the filter sorting out the flow for the front of the tank and stick a powerhead in the rear corner to sort out flow back to the filter inlet (same corner as the outlet lily pipe)
 
Keetchy said:
I'll check out the video. Thanks. Wow so in that case I am underpowered with my filter. I'll definitely get a powerhead then. I'll assess the flow once I got the lily pipe fitted but most likely have the filter sorting out the flow for the front of the tank and stick a powerhead in the rear corner to sort out flow back to the filter inlet (same corner as the outlet lily pipe)
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In a tank with CO2 injection you do need CO2 and nutrients to be evenly distributed. For that you need sufficient water circulation (this is where the flow ~10x volume magic number comes from). Now, you do not need the filters to provide such flow alone, especially in a planted tank. Your 1000 lph filter is sufficient for mechanical and biological filtration. This is where the power heads/wave makers come into the picture because they generate flow and they are easier to control than filter outputs.
 
arcturus said:
In a tank with CO2 injection you do need CO2 and nutrients to be evenly distributed. For that you need sufficient water circulation (this is where the flow ~10x volume magic number comes from). Now, you do not need the filters to provide such flow alone, especially in a planted tank. Your 1000 lph filter is sufficient for mechanical and biological filtration. This is where the power heads/wave makers come into the picture because they generate flow and they are easier to control than filter outputs.
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Perfect bud. I'll get myself the skimmer lily pipe set and a controllable powerhead. Hopefully with the increased flow and keeping the C02 steady, the ferts will fall into place and I'll have a successful tank. Its just knowing how much to fert of TNC to get it right that will be the next tricky part
 
Keetchy said:
Perfect bud. I'll get myself the skimmer lily pipe set and a controllable powerhead. Hopefully with the increased flow and keeping the C02 steady, the ferts will fall into place and I'll have a successful tank. Its just knowing how much to fert of TNC to get it right that will be the next tricky part
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The recommended TNC regime might be sufficient to provide the required nutrients in a low tech rank. But with CO2 and additional light input you need to increase the weekly nutrient target. A way to do this is increasing the fertilization frequency to maybe 3-4x per week. But even at this rate, I think you would fertilizing below the lower range of Estimative Index...

There are several TNC Complete users in this forum that can surely give you some input. I suggest you ask this question in the fertilizers forum.
 
arcturus said:
The recommended TNC regime might be sufficient to provide the required nutrients in a low tech rank. But with CO2 and additional light input you need to increase the weekly nutrient target. A way to do this is increasing the fertilization frequency to maybe 3-4x per week. But even at this rate, I think you would fertilizing below the lower range of Estimative Index...

There are several TNC Complete users in this forum that can surely give you some input. I suggest you ask this question in the fertilizers forum.
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OK bud, I'll start another thread tonight. So the recommended dosage for TNC is 1ml per 10 litres of water. I am ferting 3ml per 10 litres of water. But I will still start a new thread in the fertiliser section
 
Keetchy said:
What has caused the BBA? Is it because I increased light intensity and C02 but not the ferts? Or have I got another issue in the tank?
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The bba ~ stagshorn ~ insert ufo algae here was likely caused by fluctuating co2 levels, this could have happened for a number of reasons. The obvious one is increasing the light intensity... system is geared for plan A, and you introduce plan B... its possible that plan A was working and the higher light skewed plan B, its also possible that following plan C will work. Lol

The nutrient demand on this tank is small. I'd suggest you don't need 4x times tnc complete to fix this tank, dose a decent amount of ferts (1× possibly 2x tnc complete) and get a stable amount of co2 "i shall repeat ~ "stable co2"" and I'm sure you'll bring things around.
 
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John q said:
The bba ~ stagshorn ~ insert ufo algae here was likely caused by fluctuating co2 levels, this could have happened for a number of reasons. The obvious one is increasing the light intensity... system is geared for plan A, and you introduce plan B... its possible that plan A was working and the higher light skewed plan B, its also possible that following plan C will work. Lol

The nutrient demand on this tank is small. I'd suggest you don't need 4x times tnc complete to fix this tank, dose a decent amount of ferts (1× possibly 2x tnc complete) and get a stable amount of co2 "i shall repeat ~ "stable co2"" and I'm sure you'll bring things around.
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Ha OK cool. So carry on with plan C yeah? WCs every other day, cut out any new algae infested leaves and scrubbing hardscape, leave C02 as it is now as the DC is a lime green colour from lights on to C02 off, and carry on dosing what I was dosing which is 3 times the normal TNC recommended dose
 
if you are dosing 3x the recommended dose of TNC complete and your nitrate test kit says you have nearly 0 nitrate, that just shows how unreliable some nitrate test kits are.
 
erwin123 said:
if you are dosing 3x the recommended dose of TNC complete and your nitrate test kit says you have nearly 0 nitrate, that just shows how unreliable some nitrate test kits are.
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If I got the calculations right, 3x the recommended dose of TNC Complete yields ~6.5 ppm of NO3, which is a similar value to APT Complete. This value is in the low range for a planted tank with CO2 if not complemented with enriched aquasoil.
 
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arcturus said:
If I got the calculations right, 3x the recommended dose of TNC Complete yields ~6.5 ppm of NO3, which is a similar value to APT Complete. This value is in the low range for a planted tank with CO2 if not complemented with enriched aquasoil.
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1643195061401.png

According to the IFC spreadsheet, the recommended dose of TNC complete (1ml/10l/week) yields 6.64ppm NO3, so 3x the recommended dose will be 19.92ppm NO3
 
erwin123 said:
View attachment 180778
According to the IFC spreadsheet, the recommended dose of TNC complete (1ml/10l/week) yields 6.64ppm NO3, so 3x the recommended dose will be 19.92ppm NO3
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Thanks for the correction - got the NO3 numbers right but failed to multiply by 3 ;) Then yes, 3x the recommended dosage is sufficient.
 
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