120cm Nature Aquarium

[ChrisD80]

Thanks both, that is my most likely hypothesis. I have emailed the plant supplier to see if it’s a possibility.

Sadly found another this morning. Must have only just passed as it looks in normal condition. Pic below. I cannot see anything unusual.


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[Siege]

What grower were your plants? Problem unlikely if they are European growers. Possible with cheap imports from outside Europe. These are more likely to be bunches /cuttings shoved into pots though rather than true pot grown plants.


My money would be on ammonia at substrate level. Give that a good blast with a turkey baster followed by a couple of massive water changes.

May also be combined with you removing media from the filter to enhance the flow?

 

[ChrisD80]

On the plant front, the normally fast growing hygrophila pinnatafida and floating salvinia are showing signs of ill health in the form of brown spots / browning.

If this a reflection of an overall nutrient deficiency it may be because the emersed pinnatafida (final pic), which keeps getting bigger, is using up more and more fertiliser and there’s not enough to go around.

I have just now increased daily dose of all in one TNC complete from 22ml to 27ml. Let’s see if this makes a difference...

If any experts can diagnose more specifically the issue from the pics please shout.

Thanks as always
Chris







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[ChrisD80]

What grower were your plants?

Hi @Seige there were 2x Echinodorus, 1x microsorum trident, 1x Bolbitis heudloti and 1x 1-2 grow vesicularia Dubyana all from tropica. And 1x EASY GROW micranthemum micranthemoides from Aquafleur
Supplier was Pro Shrimp


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[ChrisD80]

@Siege just saw remainder of your post. Thanks for advice.
I have done 2x 50% water changes on regular weekly schedule since first death but will do another bigger one tonight. I am using pumped RO so it takes considerable time to refill and back to back changes would not be possible with the time i oday.
The filter media I removed was just mechanical sponges from the pre-filters. The biological media remains the same.

test readings:
Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 20-40ppm. GH 7, KH 4.

Thanks
Chris

 

[Siege]

Cheers.
Yes not the plants, all EU grown so not treated for pests. I cant see pro shrimp treating for pests. Too time consuming and associated issues once go in the tank.

you may still have ammonia at substrate level, hence the shrimp and snail deaths. This is more than likely caused by excess food, melting plants etc. Give the substrate a good blast with a turkey baster at water change time and syphon off the rubbish that floats up.

Make sure your drop checker is good and is dry when refilled to ensure it’s not co2 related.

 

[ChrisD80]

Performed a 80%+ water change on 17/12 including Turkey Baster blasting.

Have kept feeding to a minimum.

additional drop checkers added, will keep an eye on them.

I thought it was going ok but just found two more dead this morning, including one of the older really big ones.

I fear for the whole population now. If I thought I could catch them easily I would remove the remaining ones from the tank and transfer to my old aquarium.

 

[ChrisD80]

Just a couple update pics

 

[ForestDave]

Looks great! How are your shrimp doing?

 

[ChrisD80]

Hi @ForestDave, thanks for your comment. Sadly the shrimp have all passed away. Over 20 of them. It’s quite upsetting, and the really frustrating thing is that I don’t know what the problem was.

One thing that I have since considered is that I started adding potassium bicarbonate (food grade) at some point, when I do water changes to boost the KH a little. I cannot recall exactly when but it may well have been about the time when the nerite and clithon snails perished followed by the first dead amino shrimp being found. With every water change I may have been doing more harm than good.

Just browsing I found this post which sounded startlingly familiar.

Potassium (bi)carbonate and inverts

www.plantedtank.net

Has anyone else had a similar experience?
Or conversely is anyone actively adding potassium bicarbonate to RO water and has happy healthy shrimp and snails?

thanks
Chris

 

[ForestDave]

Ah sorry to hear that Chris. I can imagine that was pretty horrible to watch.
I'll be following your post to see if there are any updates on the potassium bicarbonate.
Good luck getting to the bottom of it!

 

[Wookii]

Hi @ForestDave, thanks for your comment. Sadly the shrimp have all passed away. Over 20 of them. It’s quite upsetting, and the really frustrating thing is that I don’t know what the problem was.

One thing that I have since considered is that I started adding potassium bicarbonate (food grade) at some point, when I do water changes to boost the KH a little. I cannot recall exactly when but it may well have been about the time when the nerite and clithon snails perished followed by the first dead amino shrimp being found. With every water change I may have been doing more harm than good.

Just browsing I found this post which sounded startlingly familiar.

Potassium (bi)carbonate and inverts

www.plantedtank.net

Has anyone else had a similar experience?
Or conversely is anyone actively adding potassium bicarbonate to RO water and has happy healthy shrimp and snails?

thanks
Chris

The vast majority of people remineralising RO water will be using either potassium carbonate or potassium bi-carbonate Chris, either via raw salts, or via commercial KH+ products which will contain these also. If potassium bircarbonate was a shrimp killer you'd be hearing a lot more about it, especially from shrimp breeders who more commonly use remineralised RO water. The only other possibility is there could be some other impurities in the potassium bicarbonate, but if you say it is food grade, that is unlikely too. Where did you get it?

That said, the TNC GH Booster you are using contains potassium, as does the TNC Complete you are dosing. @Zeus. might be able to tell you what your resulting potassium levels are via his magic calculator - I would expect them to be fairly high, but again I'd be surprised if they were high enough to be toxic to shrimp.

I can see nothing obvious from looking at your tank, as to what might have caused the deaths. Generally when shrimp are unhappy with the water parameters, they tend to try and vote with their feet and attempt to evacuate the tank. If CO2 is too high for example, Amano shrimp will often do very rapid laps of the tank just below the surface trying to find a way out. Do they show this kind of behaviour?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

One thing that I have since considered is that I started adding potassium bicarbonate (food grade) at some point, when I do water changes to boost the KH a little. I cannot recall exactly when but it may well have been about the time when the nerite and clithon snails perished followed by the first dead amino shrimp being found.

I agree with @Wookii, the tank looks fine (plant growth looks good) and I think it is pretty unlikely that it is the potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3). A thought occurs that it might be a calcium (Ca) issue or even possibly sodium (Na). I've never deliberately added sodium to my tank, but our tap water has some in it and so does our rainwater (you get sodium ions (from sea water) even if you live miles from the sea).

I lost my Cherry Shrimps through a combination of feeding too many of them to the Apistogramma cacatuoides and letting the water get too soft in the winter. Now I keep an eye on the Ramshorn snails in the tanks, and if I only have very small, pale shelled, ones left I <"add a bit more tap water">. The only harder water snails I've tried were Assassin Snails (Anentome (Clea) helena) and they rapidly showed <"shell attrition">.

Did you used to remineralise your RO with tap water, before you used potassium bicarbonate? or a commercial salts mix and do you add calcium?

I know you will have added magnesium (Mg) with your fertiliser dosing.

cheers Darrel

 

[Wookii]

Hi all,

I agree with @Wookii, the tank looks fine (plant growth looks good) and I think it is pretty unlikely that it is the potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3). A thought occurs that it might be a calcium (Ca) issue or even possibly sodium (Na). I've never deliberately added sodium to my tank, but our tap water has some in it and so does our rainwater (you get sodium ions (from sea water) even if you live miles from the sea).

Did you used to remineralise your RO with tap water, before you used potassium bicarbonate? or a commercial salts mix and do you add calcium?

I know you will have added magnesium (Mg) with your fertiliser dosing.

cheers Darrel

I had the same thought initially Darrel, that it could be calcium/moulting, but in Chris's post on the first page says he uses:

Water
Pumped reverse osmosis (TDS 7)
Remineralised with TNC GH Boost to GH 6, KH <2

. . . which contains calcium, magnesium and potassium. Whether its enough calcium , I don't know, they do list the percentages here:

TNC GH Boost

Boosts General Hardness (GH) of tank water Increases Magnesium, Calcium & Potassium levels Ideal for the soft, rain or RO water user Simple to use powder Description TNC GH Boost contains Calcium, Magnesium and Potassium salts. Added to your tank it will increase the water hardness and the...

thenutrientcompany.com

K 13.5% (K2O 13.2%),Ca 9% (CaO 12.5%), Mg 3% (MgO 5%)

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

but in Chris's post on the first page says he uses: TNC GH Boost which contains calcium, magnesium and potassium.

Not that then. I'm really struggling. I might try adding some Oak leaves or Alder cones, they would bind any potential heavy metal issues, but they will also <"tint your water">.

As a last resort I might try a minimal amount of sodium chloride (NaCl). "Table salt" would be fine whatever the <"added desiccant is">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Zeus.]

have just now increased daily dose of all in one TNC complete from 22ml to 27ml. Let’s see if this makes a difference...

So 290L tank so STD dose would be 29ml per week and your was dosing 22ml per day so 154 ml per week so that works out at 154/29 = 5.3 so Five times STD dose


new dose 27 x7 = 189, 189/29 = 6.5 so x6.5

Also increase dGH to 6 So Six times STD dose


Then 2.0gKH



So plants are not Potassium deficient. 100ppm K +

Plus with such high nitrates levels (not that I trust test kits) maybe a little less Ferts will do more good than harm
Plus doing a DY remin bespoke mix will lower the [K] levels and save you money

 

[ChrisD80]

Thank you @dw1305 @Wookii and @Zeus. for your help with this and all the info.

I bought the potassium bicarbonate from this source:

1kg Potassium Bicarbonate

We sell Borax, Boric acid, Sodium Bicarbonate, Epsom Salt, Copper Sulphate, Calcium Carbonate, Trisodium Phosphate, Sodium Thiosulphate, Ammonium Sulphate

www.intralabs.co.uk

The shrimp did not show any desire to exit the tank, and were behaving normally so far as I could tell. I took a video (below) of what turned out to be final sighting of a shrimp. I found empty exoskeletons regularly so moulting was taking place. There were issues early on, which I think were CO2 related and then more recently the only instance I can recall was when I was doing a water change and one was on its back. Although all the snails eventually stopped moving, they didn't try and get out the tank and I couldn't see any change in the condition of their shells.

As @Wookii said I am using the GH boost with every water change. I will stop using the potassium bicarbonate from now on.

With regards to TNC Complete I increased the dosage because the java fern amongst others was looking really pale. Even with the higher dosing it looked the same and it is growing fine. Due to this and with the shrimp problems I did actually reduce the dosage down a few weeks ago currently at 19ml per day, and the plants don't look any the worse for it, and are on the whole looking probably the best they have. Do you think 19ml is appropriate or still too high? also I think the rock and substrate must be reducing the overall volume down from 290litres.

Cheers
Chris

 

[Wookii]

Thank you @dw1305 @Wookii and @Zeus. for your help with this and all the info.

I bought the potassium bicarbonate from this source:

1kg Potassium Bicarbonate

We sell Borax, Boric acid, Sodium Bicarbonate, Epsom Salt, Copper Sulphate, Calcium Carbonate, Trisodium Phosphate, Sodium Thiosulphate, Ammonium Sulphate

www.intralabs.co.uk

The looks fine to me.

As @Wookii said I am using the GH boost with every water change. I will stop using the potassium bicarbonate from now on.

I wouldn’t if I were you. Stability of parameters is more important. I really don’t think that the potassium bicarbonate will be doing any harm, the issues with the Amanos is elsewhere, and still a mystery unfortunately.

 

[ChrisD80]

Also, unrelated to shrimp, but for purposes of keeping a log...

I was lucky to receive a book called Aquarium Plants by Christel Kasselmann for Christmas. She says that in the tropics sunlight will be more or less a constant 12 hour period through the year and recommends 12-13 hours for cultivating vast majority of aquarium plants (minimum 12 hours). As I hadn't increased lighting duration from the 6-7 hours I went with in the early days when I was suffering melting, 2-3 weeks ago I increased it up to 10.5 hours with corresponding increase in C02 period. As I said above plants are probably looking best right now that they ever have.

On the BBA front, it has been present on hardscape and many of the plants (on their older leaves) for a long time (many months). I have been cleaning the pre-filters weekly and carefully removing any damaged/decaying plant matter I see, and the airstones are on 24/7. So the news to report is that I have tried again with liquid carbon, more diligent this time 15ml eery day for about 10 days now. I have been using a syringe to spot dose underwater and the results are better than I expected. Areas treated have turned white and eventually disappeared (I wondered whether it would be too dilute underwater and ineffective) and the plants haven't really suffered. Anubias, Bucephalandra and even some of the mosses that were heavily infested are now looking pretty much free of BBA and no damage to their leaves. When I had previously applied liquid carbon with a paint brush to branches when out of the tank and some had come in to contact with moss, the moss had completely died off, so this was a pleasant surprise.

Feeling more positive now with very little visible algae and good plant growth.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

She says that in the tropics sunlight will be more or less a constant 12 hour period through the year and recommends 12-13 hours for cultivating vast majority of aquarium plants (minimum 12 hours).

I've <"always used a 12 hour day">, using the same reasoning., but I don't add CO2 and all my tanks are nutrient depleted.

cheers Darrel