120cm Nature Aquarium

[ChrisD80]

But then, first sign of trouble. When performing a water change I noticed that one of the bucephalandra had completely melted down to the rhizome. At this time the weather was quite hot and the water temperature was over 28 degC, not sure if this was part of the problem.

 

[ChrisD80]

and others followed soon after.

The Staurogyne Repens and Crypt Parva completely melted away without a trace, as did several of the stem varieties. Out of the four Buce, just two remain in tact but not looking healthy at all. The Monte Carlo is barely hanging on and even the ever-reliable Crypt Wendtii from my original tank were not looking good. Some of the mini hairgrass has been lost and most of the Hydrocotyle Verticillata. The smaller bolbitis in vitro has melted away to almost nothing and the Trident Java Fern is not doing great.

Conversely the mosses, Hygro pinnatafida and some of the stems are doing well along with of course the floating plants.

 

[ChrisD80]

And what I presume to be diatoms were starting to emerge and have continued to spread across most surfaces (glass, wood, rocks and lots on the sand) and many of the plants, only diminished by the cleaning and siphoning during maintenance sessions.
Here is a recent pic of some on the wood.

 

[ChrisD80]

and on the moss:

 

[ChrisD80]

This has been quite distressing to say the least. Having read through some threads on UKAPS I decided to reduce lighting and increase CO2 and flow. I turned off one of the Aquaray and limited the other to just 1 hour. I added an Eheim Stream-On 4000 circulation powerhead alongside the filter outlet and this has resulted in nearly all the plants swaying and the stems at the back were almost pushed over. I upped the CO2 injection rate to about 15cc/min and brought forward the switch on time to 3hr before lights hit 100%.

I saw some members asking for a pH profile so one day I took readings every 30 minutes:

 

[ChrisD80]

I get the feeling something is seriously wrong but I am not sure what it is. I have read that diatoms are common with a new set up and perhaps I just need to wait it out, but i feel that I should make changes to improve things. Every day I worry that another plant will start to deteriorate and then fade away.

so if anyone has any thoughts and can offer advice please it would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks

 

[hypnogogia]

I’m confused as to why your drop checker is staying blue despite the 1ph drop.

 

[ChrisD80]

hi @hypnogogia when i look at it in person I wouldn't say its blue, definitely green. Here is another pic with better lighting that I took the other day (about 17:00):

 

[Onoma1]

Its so dispiriting when this happens. I haven't got any quick solutions but these may be helpful for you:

Your dark start was for over six weeks with a cycled filter. The usual period seems to be two weeks. Could it be that the longer period was counter productive?

Buce can bounce back after melting. Giving it time, appropriate mineralisation and placing it in a shady place in the tank has worked for me.

Staurogyne Repens can be difficult for some and easy for others. The forum is full of threads on the difficulties people have experienced with it. Increasing CO2 seems to help a lot.

Hairgrass in my experience can take time to recover after planting. Some will die off and then recover rapidly.

9.5 hours of light much of which isn't at full capacity seems too long and too little for a high energy tank. Cut it back to six or seven at full intensity until you get the growth you want. Then tweak it. Don't use a ramp period just yet.

Diatoms seem to be a natural phase new tanks go through and tend to disappear with time.

Start your 'clean up crew' early on to - shrimp snails and perferred algae eating fish to keep any other algae in check if and when it occurs.

 

[steveno]

Hiya Chris, I can certainly understand your frustration, this hobby bring both high and lows.

I cant offer much in the way of a solution i afraid, as you seem to be doing everything correctly, thou the suddenly peak in temperature recently may have attributed to your woes, i tend to keep my tanks around 22-24.

C02 and flow are the 2 biggest factors in a high tech, high light setup, and it seems you are address both these.

I too would be interested heard why you are struggling to get the drop checker to change colour as well, as I'm struggle with the same issue. I don't use RO water as my water straight from tap is soft. Your ph drop would suggest that you are providing sufficient C02, but if you are not already doing I have also been advised to also check you KH through out the day too, this should give you a better idea of your C02 level using table below.

Such a lovely scape, I hope you manage to find a solution.

 

[Nick72]

Hi @ChrisD80

Here are some thoughts.

You're drop checker solution doesn't look right to me. I would throw it out and try a new one.

Your PH of 6.5 is pretty low. I'd like to know what you KH is. It could be that your KH and therefore your PH buffer is close to zero, and this may give you an unstable PH. I have some experience with this.

Alternatively it could be that your aquarium soil is formulated to lower your PH?

In either case low PH makes CO2 more difficult. You will notice the above chart supplied by @steveno only goes down to 6PH.

You will also notice that the lower your KH the larger a PH drop you need to reach 30ppm CO2. Where most people aim for a 1 point PH drop, people like myself with a KH of 1 often need a bigger PH drop, 1.4 in my case to reach 30ppm.

So it's very possible, depending on your KH, that you are not injecting enough CO2.


It's true that most plants prefer temps of 22-24c, but it is possible to grow most in higher temperatures. My tank is never lower than 28.5 and often hotter. If you have a way to keep your aquarium a little cooler I would, but if like me this is impractical, then I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Lastly, plants don't care what your KH is, but your GH matters. My tap ranges from 1-3GH and I found nothing would grow in it. I now add calcium and magnesium and aim for 8GH.

I would says 6-10GH is about perfect for 95% of plants. That said I made an error and ended up with 21GH - plants loved it because I still had a 4:1 Calcium to Magnesium ratio, and they certainly had enough of both.

Let us know what you get for KH and GH readings, and while you're there Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate would be extremely useful, and we can go from there.

 

[ChrisD80]

Hello @Onoma1, @steveno and @Nick72. Thank you very much for your replies, appreciate you taking the time to give me your thoughts.

Your dark start was for over six weeks with a cycled filter. The usual period seems to be two weeks. Could it be that the longer period was counter productive?

Yes I had successfully cycled after two or three weeks but unfortunately due to supply shortages for plants at the aquascaping stores (due to corona virus) and other factors I was unable to plant until a few weeks later. I am not sure whether this extended period has had adverse effects.

Buce can bounce back after melting. Giving it time, appropriate mineralisation and placing it in a shady place in the tank has worked for me.

The first one to melt I have pretty much given up on, its in a terrible state but I have a slim hope the others may come back in time. Although they are super glued in place so moving them to shadier spots may be problematic.

Hairgrass in my experience can take time to recover after planting. Some will die off and then recover rapidly.

I have not yet trimmed the hair grass, do you think this would help? I have moth mini and normal varieties and i estimate them to be approx 5cm high.

9.5 hours of light much of which isn't at full capacity seems too long and too little for a high energy tank. Cut it back to six or seven at full intensity until you get the growth you want. Then tweak it. Don't use a ramp period just yet.

Okay I will make the changes you suggest, I am not sure whether for now just to go with the Fluval 3.0? or should i go with the Grobeam Aquarays as well (there are 4 of them at 12W each)?

Start your 'clean up crew' early on to - shrimp snails and perferred algae eating fish to keep any other algae in check if and when it occurs.

I have one Otto at the moment but will definitely add more once I can get to the LFS. I have also had two Amano shrimp in there for two weeks or so but noticed a couple of days ago mid-afternoon that they were lying on the sand on their backs and one was having what appeared to be a fit. I presumed this to be CO2 related so I moved them up near the surface, increased the surface agitation and turned the CO2 off for the day. They were ok that evening. The CO2 came back on the following day per solenoid schedule and they were suffering again in the afternoon so I have moved them back to the old aquarium for now. I have had those shrimp for something like 7/8 years. They have been subjected to CO2 for a long time (at perhaps slightly lower levels (10cc/min) and they were absolutely fine so not sure what's going on. I returned my two old SAE to the LFS a few weeks ago since they were 5/6 inches long and too big for the new scape. I will also look into getting some Nerite/Clithon snails, but not sure they will like the soft water.

 

[ChrisD80]

I too would be interested heard why you are struggling to get the drop checker to change colour as well, as I'm struggle with the same issue. I don't use RO water as my water straight from tap is soft. Your ph drop would suggest that you are providing sufficient C02, but if you are not already doing I have also been advised to also check you KH through out the day too, this should give you a better idea of your C02 level using table below.

You're drop checker solution doesn't look right to me. I would throw it out and try a new one.

I agree the photo collage of the drop checker is not great at showing a colour change, but in person I do observe a change. I have several drop checkers so I will empty the current contents and refill some with some pH solution from my API test kit and some with the original liquid I have been using. I can take some more photos through the day to see if it reveals anything.

Your PH of 6.5 is pretty low. I'd like to know what you KH is. It could be that your KH and therefore your PH buffer is close to zero, and this may give you an unstable PH. I have some experience with this.

Alternatively it could be that your aquarium soil is formulated to lower your PH?

In either case low PH makes CO2 more difficult. You will notice the above chart supplied by @steveno only goes down to 6PH.

You will also notice that the lower your KH the larger a PH drop you need to reach 30ppm CO2. Where most people aim for a 1 point PH drop, people like myself with a KH of 1 often need a bigger PH drop, 1.4 in my case to reach 30ppm.

So it's very possible, depending on your KH, that you are not injecting enough CO2.

I am using ADA Amazonia aqua soil topped with Tropica Aquarium soil powder so I was expecting to have a pH on the lower side, and pH 6.5 was not a surprise. I believe my KH to be low, less than 2. Its hard to tell the colour using the API titration test kit as 1/2 drops is such a diluted solution.

Lastly, plants don't care what your KH is, but your GH matters. My tap ranges from 1-3GH and I found nothing would grow in it. I now add calcium and magnesium and aim for 8GH.

I would says 6-10GH is about perfect for 95% of plants. That said I made an error and ended up with 21GH - plants loved it because I still had a 4:1 Calcium to Magnesium ratio, and they certainly had enough of both.

Let us know what you get for KH and GH readings, and while you're there Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate would be extremely useful, and we can go from there.

I am remineralising GH with every water change, but I figured the aquasoil will eat any KH I were to add so I don't remineralise for that.

I will take KH, GH, Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate readings and get back to you.

Thanks again all for your help.

Cheers
Chris

 

[ChrisD80]

About six weeks in now.
Pics shot before maintenance.
Nymphaea Lotus has reached the surface and has about seven leaves now, some 15cm+ in diameter. Central stems are doing well, will need to be trimmed. Pinnatifida and mosses continue to grow at a good rate.
Still plagued by diatoms everywhere, with some green algae developing on the rock and few tufts of BBA on the wood,
Second of the schismatoglostis has now melted A few strands of Monte Carlo remain, but several of the Eleocharis acicularis mini have been lost.

 

[ChrisD80]

Let us know what you get for KH and GH readings, and while you're there Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate would be extremely useful, and we can go from there.

Here are the test results, taken just before weekly water change:

• GH 8
• KH 1-2
• Ammonia 0-0.25ppm
• Nitrite 0ppm
• Nitrate 10-20ppm

Thanks
Chris

 

[ChrisD80]

And thanks to @hypnogogia and @Nick72 for commenting on my drop checkers and the C02 reagent i was using.
When I compare my old liquid (on the left) to the API PH test bottle (on the right), it is evident that something is wrong with it.
I look forward to seeing what happens to the drop checkers now that I have the right stuff!

 

[Nick72]

Here are the test results, taken just before weekly water change:

• GH 8
• KH 1-2
• Ammonia 0-0.25ppm
• Nitrite 0ppm
• Nitrate 10-20ppm

Thanks
Chris
View attachment 152346

Hi Chris,

Your readings are good and certainly not the cause of any of your issues.

That said your combined low PH with low KH are a PH crash waiting to happen.

You may go months without issue, then one day your PH will crash and kill everything in your tank.

I would work to get a stable 4KH, this will push your PH closer to 7, so a win all round.

With regards to your algae the best advice and quickest win is to add Excel every day. Not only now that you have algae, but every day the tank is running. It makes a big difference, but may take several weeks before its obvious.

The final step is to introduce a clean up crew. Shrimp, Nerite Snails are fine but I find you can't beat fish, and I recommend them in this order of effectiveness:

Garra Flavatra (Panda Garra)
Siamese Algae Eater
Otocinclus
Bristle Nose Pleco

You need to tune your lights and nutrients to reduce 80% of your algae issue (which I think you have already done).

Daily Excel will take you to 90%.

The clean up crew will get you over the line at 95% algae free.

No one is constantly algae free. So the last 5% is vigilance and maintenance.

 

[ChrisD80]

Thank you [mention]Nick72 [/mention].

I am persevering with tuning the lights, CO2, flow and nutrients. Still not there yet
I will definitely give Excel a go.

Regarding the cleanup crew I actually recently returned some mature SAE from my old aquarium because they are so large. I had not heard of Panda Garra before but looks like that gets pretty big also. I will be going for small fish in this scape so would look out of proportion. I suppose I could buy a young one and perhaps return to the store once it gets too big? I will be sure to get plenty more Otocinclus.

Cheers
Chris


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[Nick72]

Thank you [mention]Nick72 [/mention].

I am persevering with tuning the lights, CO2, flow and nutrients. Still not there yet
I will definitely give Excel a go.

Regarding the cleanup crew I actually recently returned some mature SAE from my old aquarium because they are so large. I had not heard of Panda Garra before but looks like that gets pretty big also. I will be going for small fish in this scape so would look out of proportion. I suppose I could buy a young one and perhaps return to the store once it gets too big? I will be sure to get plenty more Otocinclus.

Cheers
Chris


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Hi Chris,

Panda Garra max out at 3.5 inches, although going by my one they are very slow growers - and I suspect most don't actually make 3 inches.

From my experience you can't beat a Panda Garra, I'd say 1x Panda Garra does the clean up job of 8x Otocinclus. I would get one Panda Garra plus your group of Otocinclus.

I only have one in my tank, but wouldn't be without him. He cleans the glass, scrubs the pipework meticulously, when not cleaning algae from the leaves and substrate, and has a fantastic playful character.

There's no way one would look out of place in your four foot tank.

 

[ChrisD80]

Thanks for the advice [mention]Nick72 [/mention] , hoping to go to LFS this weekend so will take a look to see if they have any


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