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10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI time?

Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.

mdhardy01 said:
Pfk say that at the surface they produced 585 umols and at 60cm deep
this droped to 130 umols
they say the marine White recorded a higher par so maybe the
growbeam are slightly less but pfk were measuring them for coral growth
not plants
hope this helps
matt
Click to expand...


So does that mean that at 45cm the light should be approx 245umols when the unit (marine) is at 100%

If so then at 25% phasor weapon power the light delivers 61 umols at substrate level in a 45cm tank. So by dropping to this level I fall between the LCP of 35 - 85 umols.

Have I made to many assumptions 😵
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

Yep, if Matt's reported numbers are valid, and if the relationship between power settings and delivered PAR is linear as assumed, then this is a rational assumption. Having never used LEDs, I can only go by the reported values and by how the tank is responding. Try this for a few weeks and see what happens. In a new setup, the lighting needs to be very low anyway because the plants are not very efficient after being flooded.

Cheers,
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

Ceg, Am I right in thinking the average/optimal level at substrate is usually 30umols? Or have I got the units wrong?
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

Hi Gareth,
30 micromoles is just a low light value, that's all. That might be optimal for a non-CO2 tank but there really isn't an optimal lighting unless matched by a corresponding CO2 concentration value. The two are inseparable. The combination of the two yields a growth rate, so optimal depends on what growth rate you want. :idea:

Cheers,
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

Hmm, I'm sure I'd read that was the value Amano opted for or achieved but I can't actually find any proof of that.

Best of luck with the LED's I'm waiting for mine to arrive to build a similar fixture.
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.

Ok so today after 3 days without a water change I replaced about 75% water. The lights are on for 6 hours at 25% of the the rated capacity of the LED lights. My co2 is green despite me trying to get it to yellow. I have no fish so I assume I can pump as much co2 into the tank as I like. I have a lot plants turning to mush! 80% are fine but I've lost 20%.

I have upped the co2 to "to many bubbles to count". To much light and to little co2 seems to be the most likely cause. I'm rather frustrated by this but I know I need to patient.

At least I have no algae at the moment.
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please.

tyrophagus said:
...My co2 is green despite me trying to get it to yellow...
Click to expand...
This part is incongruous mate. It's not theoretically possible, unless there is something wrong with the bromo blue or unless you are using dropchecker water that's tainted somehow. Can you give us two pH readings? One just before lights on and the second just after lights out?

tyrophagus said:
...I have no fish so I assume I can pump as much co2 into the tank as I like...
Click to expand...
YES!

Cheers,
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

Good God! I NEVER knew LED lights could be THAT strong.

If you want to halve your light intensity double the distance from source to light (since light radiates inverse square), who knows you might have sufficient ceiling room, and you might welcome the extra light going out into the room.

I was really hoping to use one of these LED lights in a new setup since they cost next to nothing to run!!
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

Garuf said:
Hmm, I'm sure I'd read that was the value Amano opted for or achieved but I can't actually find any proof of that.
Click to expand...


I think that was from the PAR testing MR Barr did on several tanks a couple of years ago. I believe he found that 30-40 PAR was recorded at substrate level on most of them. I saw the post on the planted tank not long ago.
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

Thanks for your help folks :thumbup:

I have decreased the strength of the lighting and increased the CO2 (yellow) and the plants are growing again.

I have to have 15 - 20 drop per sec to turn it yellow. I need more time to tweak this but when I last tried to turn it down it swung back to green and the plants looked unhappy.
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

OK mate, well it's good that you can see a distinct correlation between the injection rate and plant health. There should now be little doubt that CO2 uptake is a matter of life and death. Always question the status and integrity of your CO2 delivery - Always. Even when you think it might be good. Immediately perish the thought and think about ways of improving it. I make it a policy that whenever someone reports difficulty, and says "I know my CO2 and flow/distribution are good", then within approximately 0.030 microseconds, I immediately conclude that the person is suffering poor CO2/flow/distribution.

At some point, if you choose to resume a higher lighting profile, you know now that an injection rate increase must accompany the proposed higher energy level.

Your flow/distribution method is now also extremely suspect. If your TMC Phasor disruptor is only set to "Stun", i.e. 25%, and if you are still forced to drive the dropchecker into the yellow just to avoid Carbon starvation, then this bodes ill for higher energy level settings (and certainly bodes ill for adding fish).

I note that you have mounted a single Pratt & Whitney JT9D-7R4 High Bypass Ratio Turbofan engine mounted in the right side front. As a long term strategy, you may wish to consider the switch to ganged spraybars mounted along the back wall connected a higher throughput rated filter. Or you may want to play with the Turbofan's position to see if you can garner a more positive impact on distribution.

Check these threads for discussions regarding the impact of flow on CO2 uptake:
inline devices
Help - Algae Outbreak!

Cheers,
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

So I have good growth just after a water change BUT this seems to drop off over the next week as I move towards my next water change. As the week progresses I develop a hydrocarbon shiny layer on the surface of the tank and the plant growth slows. 🙁

Clive has covered this scum layer on the surface in separate posts and it represents a problem with the co2, light, flow or nutrients. The plants are stressed. So given my co2 drop checker is yellow and the led lights are set to "stun" rather than "vapourise" i don't think they are the problem.

Either my co2 distribution sucks or I'm short of npk/ trace.

So I like my my Gucci glass to much to have a spray bar at present Clive. 8)
I'm willing to consider changing but I think I have good flow and ok distribution of co2. My filter is rated at 1700l/hr and probably delivers half that for a 180l tank. The flow starts along the front of the tank and the outflow is in the back corner on the same side. I have a vortech mp10 in the back right corner (same side as the outflow inflow) facing towards the front of the tank.

This creates a circular flow and although I'm not following the perceived wisdom of putting the outflow and inflow in the same corner, I am creating extra flow from the back to the front on the right with the vortech. I have that set to a low flow rate because otherwise my plants are blown around to much. But then maybe I should reconsider my flow...

So then to nutrients. I have been dosing 3/8 kno3 and 1/8 kphos and 1/8 trace following the EI alternate day pattern. I have seen some yellowing of leaves on some plants.

So tonight I realized that my ferts were incorrect. I have increased to 6/8 KN and 2/8 KP (I have a 1/8 tsp measure so work in eighths)

Is that correct for a 180l and do I need to add magnesium? I have been unable to get a mg level for my tap water from the water board, they say it's not a legal requirement to measure so they don't.
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

tyrophagus said:
So I have good growth just after a water change BUT this seems to drop off over the next week as I move towards my next water change. As the week progresses I develop a hydrocarbon shiny layer on the surface of the tank and the plant growth slows. 🙁
Click to expand...
Yep, good old Swindon water is high in CO2 coming out of the tap. Also, when you do a water change you typically lower the water level and expose the plant tissues to air so they absorb CO2. This explains why you see better growth after the water change. This is a strong indication right off the bat that you have marginal CO2. Are you sure you are using a 4dkH water in the dropchecker? Could it be that you have a false yellow?

tyrophagus said:
So I like my my Gucci glass to much to have a spray bar at present Clive. 8)
Click to expand...
Yes, I totally understand. You Gucci types are all about furniture. 😛 You know, they do sell Gucci Spraybars..

tyrophagus said:
I'm willing to consider changing but I think I have good flow and ok distribution of co2. My filter is rated at 1700l/hr and probably delivers half that for a 180l tank. The flow starts along the front of the tank and the outflow is in the back corner on the same side. I have a vortech mp10 in the back right corner (same side as the outflow inflow) facing towards the front of the tank.

This creates a circular flow and although I'm not following the perceived wisdom of putting the outflow and inflow in the same corner, I am creating extra flow from the back to the front on the right with the vortech. I have that set to a low flow rate because otherwise my plants are blown around to much. But then maybe I should reconsider my flow...
Click to expand...
Well, I mean, you MUST solve this problem. It' just shouldn't be that difficult. I reckon that you should at least play with a spraybar, just to see, know what I mean? Just to find out for yourself. You don't have to confess to your Gucci brethren (I won't tell them). Just don't take any pictures so there's no evidence...
Does the vortech have some intermediate setting, or can you play with positioning so the disruption is less severe?

tyrophagus said:
So then to nutrients. I have been dosing 3/8 kno3 and 1/8 kphos and 1/8 trace following the EI alternate day pattern. I have seen some yellowing of leaves on some plants.

So tonight I realized that my ferts were incorrect. I have increased to 6/8 KN and 2/8 KP (I have a 1/8 tsp measure so work in eighths)

Is that correct for a 180l and do I need to add magnesium? I have been unable to get a mg level for my tap water from the water board, they say it's not a legal requirement to measure so they don't.
Click to expand...
OK, yeah, a 180 is a 45 G tank so it needs double the values of the 20G standard tank. No big deal. Nutrients are the easiest thing to fix. Just add more of everything is my motto.

I think you can add a couple of teaspoons of MgSO4 at water change. Again, no big deal.
At least you can now answer the question "Should I dose half EI to start?" The correct answer is "NO!"

Cheers,
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

Clive I think I need to investigate how to appropriate a clear acrylic spray bar. I see there are some diy solutions on the forum.

Regarding the surface scum I have reason to believe that it is not an oil based layer but a solid. I can remove it with a net in about 2 minutes. It sits in the net
as a soapy bubbly film. I wonder if this has something to do with my hard water and high co2 levels. Is this layer not a calcium carbonate? When I break the surface film the opaque layer folds into solid white particles that sometimes start to sink.

Can this be something produced by the plants? It's not an oil.

Does it not have something to do with water chemistry rather than than plant physiology?
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

Hi tyrophagus
tyrophagus said:
Regarding the surface scum I have reason to believe that it is not an oil based layer but a solid. I can remove it with a net in about 2 minutes. It sits in the net
as a soapy bubbly film. I wonder if this has something to do with my hard water and high co2 levels.
Click to expand...
Highly unlikely.
I have hard water (Thames Water) and running DC in the yellow. Surface is like a mirror.
I had this scum in my early days of planted tanks, but with the help of the guys round here, got it sorted.
Sort your plant health and your surface scum will disappear 😀
tyrophagus said:
Can this be something produced by the plants? It's not an oil.
Click to expand...
Most definitely.
tyrophagus said:
Does it not have something to do with water chemistry rather than than plant physiology?
Click to expand...
No. If you have surface scum in a planted tank, it usually the plants telling you they are not happy. Sort the plants and all will be well.
 
Re: 10 day old tank, stem plants sick - advice please. EI t

Yeah, I totally agree with Chris. Don't fall into denial mate. The scum is like a megaphone warning you of impending danger. If it's not oil due to lipid ejection then it's ejection of carbohydrates. This tells me distribution is a serious issue. No need for acrylic for now, just get some PVC first and experiment with length, hole placement and hole size. It's cheap and easy. Do you see what I mean about placing a priority on furniture? The most stylish furniture in the world cannot help you to grow better plants. My equipment looks like it was designed by Fred Flintstone & Barney Rubble but it works a treat. Once you get the plants healthy then you can find a way to get your Gucci-ware to work properly. I'm not sure exactly why you're having difficulty with this particular set of lily pipes to be honest though. I lambast them a lot just to have a bit of fun but they shouldn't be this bad. Can you show us a close-up photo of the pipework?

Cheers,
 
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