Search results for query: duckweed index Limnobium

Hi all, It is only really iron (Fe) and manganese (Mn) that cause the lack of chlorophyll <"(chlorosis) in new leaves">, all the other options (nitrogen (N), potassium (K) & magnesium (Mg)) are mobile within the plant and deficiencies show in the old leaves, because the plant can shuffle them...

This is why the "duckweed" index is brilliant; Those frogbit looks like they are suffering from deficiency issues. If your dosing full EI and have no Mg, Fe or other micro deficiencies they should look like this picture below - not perfect, but certainly very healthy - this is with full EI and...

I see Frogbites as an alternative to massive water changes. You can dose ferts quite relaxed as you know that the floaters are using them like crazy! The only downside is my red plants that are not so red any more. But BBA has not returned, so Frogbites rule!

Hi Darrel, Perhaps you should rename it the Frogbit index. I wish your advice on the "preferred duckweed" would have been more obvious to me before this happened :lol: When the duckweed really gets going its really hard to get rid of... its almost out competing my Frogbit. Cheers, Michael

Hi all, You are talking <"to the converted">, I'm a <"Frogbit obsessive">, but it was Diana Walstad's <"aerial advantage"> that led to the <"Duckweed Index"> and eventually Limnobium laevigatum as my <"preferred "Duckweed">. cheers Darrel

Hi all, That is the real advantage of the <"Duckweed Index">, you base your fertiliser addition on the <"leaf colour and growth"> of your "Duckweed". You just <"watch the plants">, rather than being reliant on <"micro-managing nutrient addition"> or needing a <"specific type of water chemistry...

Hi all, It would have been so much easier if I'd called it the "Frogbit Index", rather than the "Duckweed Index" , but I'd already <"started writing about it before I changed over"> from Duckweed (Lemna minor) to Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum). That would be my guess as well, often...

Hi all, I'm a snail fan as well. Ramshorn snails <"definitely reduce BBA">, I don't tend to ever see in Stagshorn in the tanks, but I don't know whether that is snail grazing as well. My guess would be that it isn't and I just don't get Stagshorn outbreaks now for whatever reason. Probably not...

Hi all, In nitrate terms that is a good thing, not a bad one. Fairy Moss (Azolla caroliniana) and Duckweed (Lemna minor) are a <"pita to get out of the tank">, but other floaters like Salvinia "auriculata" (Water fern), Pistia stratiotes (Nile Cabbage) and Limnobium laevigatum (Amazon...

Hi all, Same as @Zeus., my guess is that the autodoser was off for long enough for iron deficiencies to appear. Because iron isn't mobile within the plant it takes a while for deficiency to show, and then another <"lag period until the plants improve">, once plant available iron (Fe++(+)) ions...

Hi all, I used to test the water occasionally, I look after a lab. and we have the <"potential to test for most solutes">. Same for me now. I think the first thing to say is that <"we aren't anti-testing">, and there are test kits and meters that give you <"accurate and repeatable results">...

It makes sense that for non mobile Fe, it is best to dose daily whereas mobile NPK can be front loaded. Duckweed isn't a desirable indicator plant because most people try to get rid of it. I wish I had a way to make duckweed decline, but have no luck as it thrives in adverse conditions my other...

Hi all, A <"bit of both"> I think. @Geoffrey Rea has been <"feeding his Paramecium"> to great effect. It depends on the nutrient, if a nutrient isn't mobile within the plant (like iron (Fe)) it can't store it, because any reserve is unavailable to new leaves. With <"mobile nutrients"> (N, P...

Hi all, Yes, it is. Your plants can only make use of the added CO2 if their growth isn't limited by another nutrient deficiency. You can buy an <"all in one"> mix from Tropica, <"TNC">, etc. I see you have Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum), have a look at the <"Duckweed Index">. cheers...

Hi all, Honestly that is absolutely fine. I think of it a bit like driving a car, you can be an entirely competent driver without understanding the software architecture of the Engine Management System and if you do understand it? It doesn't make you a better driver. I wouldn't do any. It's...

Hi all, Exactly that, Amazon Frogbit is just a more suitable Duckweed. It would have been so much easier if I had called it the "Frogbit Index", but hindsight is a wonderful thing. I didn't <"really invent it">, I just took elements from research on using floating plants for the...

Hi all, Possibly Red Root Floater (Phyllanthus fluitans)? It was very well behaved for me, so well well behaved that eventually I got fed up <"with continually rescuing it."> You can regulate the growth of Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum) by <"manipulating nutrient levels">. That is why I...

Darrel you have learned me today and I thank you for that! This tank is my begginers pride and joy. I really want it to succeed and I rather like the idea or philosophy, of not constantly testing the water. I think Testing has its place and there very well may come a time but for now, I am...

Hi all, Exactly what @Kalum says, you just use the <"health and colour of the leaves of a floating plant"> to assess the nutrient status of the tank, and when to add nutrients. I called it the <"Duckweed Index">. "Duckweed" was because the original plant I used was <"Lesser Duckweed (Lemna...

Hi all, Yes, I start with the floaters Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum), Floating Fern (Salvinia "auriculata group") and Nile Cabbage (Pistia stratiotes). You don't need all of them, <"any floater will do">. I particularly like Amazon Frogbit, because I can use it for the <"Duckweed...

Hi all, You could try 1/4 EI or the <"Duckweed Index">. I like Limnobium laevigatum (Amazon Frogbit) as my <"Duckweed">, have a look a these two threads <"Duckweed Index says......"> and <"Frogbit taken a turn......">. Apologies to @jameson_uk as I see these are both his threads. You still...

Hi all, That is the truth, understanding how all the <"moving bits"> line up is <"incredibly difficult">, and if anyone tells you <"they fully understand the processes"> that occur in the tank, or that theirs is the only way, they are probably mistaken. I'm not <"a CO2"> or <"EI user">, so I...

Plant update ============ I'll start with the Amazon Frogbit. Several months ago mid lockdown, when I was just a few weeks into my scaping journey, @castle was kind enough to trek over to my house and leave a gift of some Limnobium Laevigatum on my doorstep. I added it to my tank and it...

Hi all, I know what you mean, there is a lot of comment, but not that many conclusions. I'm the same I look on the plants as primarily a technique for <"improving water quality">. I'm not interested in optimal plant growth, I ideally want the <"plants growing slowly in nutrient depleted...

Hi all, Floating is just more convenient. At the most basic level any plant that has access to the atmosphere will do, and you just watch the size and colour of the leaves. When growth slows and/or the leaves become smaller, or less green than they were, you add nutrients. Once growth has...

Hi all, Welcome to the forum. It would depend a little bit on what the plants were? But my guess would be that it wasn't entirely light related. I use a simple technique, <"that takes both light and CO2 availability out of the equation">, and then you know that any growth problems that are...

Hi all, It depends how hard your water is. If your water has a high pH and carbonate hardness you may need <"FeEDDHA"> or FeDTPA as your iron chelate. Originally I used Duckeed (Lemna minor) as my floating plant (hence the "Duckweed Index"), but I agree it does have a number of issues. These...

Hi all, The liquid carbon won't make any difference , but you could definitely try a few more nutrients, they still look pretty healthy. Just pinch the yellowing leaves off. Mine are also shrinking at the moment, but in my case I think it is a light issue because the tanks get some ambient...

Hi all, It is a dechlorinator, but it also works with chloramine, because it binds any ammonia. Because there is a chance you may have some ammonia it would detoxify it. Perfect, they aren't CO2 limited so can make use of nutrients in the water column. Have a look at this thread, about the...

Hi all, Those look OK. Perfect, that is what we need to know. You can discount CO2 and light so that just leaves the mineral nutrients. Have a look at <"Duckweed Index says">, and see if that looks like your Frogbit? cheers Darrel

Hi all, I'm not a great fan of making decisions based on test kits. It isn't that I'm not interested in the water parameters, <"I'm very interested">, but to actually test all the parameters we are interested in <"is a mammoth job">. I'd probably go for that, keep on adding a small amount of...

Hi all, In terms of light and CO2, definitely a floating plant. They aren't CO2 limited and have first "dibs" on the light. Their other advantage is that they can be used for the <"Duckweed Index">, where you use the <"growth and leaf colour"> of a floating plant as an indication of nutrient...

Hi all, There is a numerical scale, but it doesn't give you any <"real empirical values">. This is the original research (from Takebe & Yoneyama). I think so, put at its most fundamental level the plants can't lie. Because plants need more nitrogen (N) than the other mineral nutrients, and...

Hi all, As a couple of people have asked about the <"leaf colour chart" (LCC)">, (that is linked into various threads talking about <"Amazon Frogbit and the "Duckweed Index">*), I'll add some references into this thread, I'll add more as I collect them. * In December 2023 I wrote a more...

Hi all, Ramshorn Snails should eat it. If you aren't adding CO2, you don't need to add as many nutrients, even with the liquid carbon source. Do you have a TDS (conductivity meter)? Do the new leaves on the other plants look pale? If they do, It might be lack of <"plant available iron">. Have a...

I recently started a thread in the General forum about potentially shutting down my tank completely. However, if you have a read you will see that I have had a change of heart (as I would probably miss my tank) and want to go for an easier, lower maintenance and lower tech aquarium. I won't go...

Thanks, as always. I don't want to raise dGH, but if I add both magnesium and calcium I will, right? I could just not worry about calcium, which looks like what you might doing. I *think* I understand how the duckweed index works, and by measuring, I'm trying to understand and locate the...

Hi all, That one <"looks all right">. I wouldn't worry about adding any salts specifically to raise the dGH. I wouldn't add a set amount, just watch the plants. At the moment I use a <"hybrid duckweed index"> where I add a small amount of iron FeEDTA and "Epsom salts" on a regular basis, but...

Hi all, Within a couple of days, or quicker, for all the mobile nutrients. With nitrogen you get almost instant greening. The only real problem is with the non-mobile elements, so in practice really just iron, because the plant can’t move nutrients to old leaves, and it’s only leaves that grow...

Re the duckweed index, how quickly does the colour change occur when there are insufficient ferts in the water column, and when you do dose, what do you dose with? Asking as I’m considering using this approach to manage my fertilisation regime.

Thank you guys for being so helpful! That does look a lot like mine! It would make sense because I'm changing so much water. So I'm surprised I'd have much in the way of Nitrates at all. My water provider (whatever that's called in English) says that the Nitrate content of our water, out of...

Hi all, They often melt, but your's don't look melted. Probably both, if all the hardness is from CaCO3, then dKH/dGH will be the same. Our aquifers are mainly chalk, in southern and eastern England, and that same <"chalk extends under a lot of N. Europe">. My tap water <"would be pretty...

Hi all, I setup my 100 litre last July using dirt. I believe that by now it may have been depleted this is why I am looking into some insight in terms of dosing. This is low tech so I thought I give @dw1305 Darrel's Duckweed index a try. It is a tank filled with Cryptocoryne so any deficiencies...

Hi all, I know it is really frustrating, but I'm pretty sure high nitrate isn't your problem. Plants need quite a lot of nitrogen. Personally I wouldn't base any decisions I made on the results of the nitrate tests. I've done a lot of water testing (in a lab. situation) and NO3- testing can be...

Hi all, They do, but you can adjust the number to give you enough light at substrate level. If I have a really bright light I just have a thick layerer of floating plants. My "go to" floating plants are Amazon Frogbit (<"Limnobium laevigatum">) as a surface floater and Hornwort (<"Ceratophyllum...

Hi all, I've recently found a few more references using Limnobium laevigatum in wastewater treatment. Because Limnobium is my preferred "Duckweed" for the <"Duckweed Index">, I thought I'd start a thread. Because it is a thread I've started I should be able to add any new references that I...

Hi all, No, don't remove any of the plants, you <"need more plants"> as @Siege says. <"Any floating plant"> is really useful, because it isn't CO2 limited and can give you an <"indication of nutrient level">. I called this method, of using a floating "canary", the <"Duckweed Index"> and my...

Hi all, It looks OK, I don't think the holes in the leaves are deficiency signs, they look more like they have been caused by a water droplet on the leaf causing lensing. In higher light Limnobium tends to <"grow thicker leaves">. Keep an eye out for yellowing (like below), if the new leaves...

Hi all, That is a lot of added TDS. We don't know exactly what the dissolved solids are, electrical conductivity is just a method for estimating all the ions in solution. I don't add CO2, and I'm not worried about optimal plant growth, so I don't regularly add nutrients, but others will use...

Hi all, Possibly <"Salvinia "auriculata group""> It doesn't really matter which floating plants they are, as long as they are growing. The most common ones people use are <"Water Lettuce (Pistia stratiotes)">, Floating Fern (Salvinia natans (auriculata)) and <"Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium...

Hi Darrel, Ok that’s great, I’ll get some floaters asap then. I’ll keep a close eye on them and see what happens. I like this idea it’s like a natural monitor! I’ve turned the lights down to 40% so I’ll see if things improve, fingers crossed Also am I right in thinking I should still...

Hi all, Have a look at <"What's this....">. Looking at the Anubias I think it maybe. I like to have a floating plant in the tank. The advantages are they aren't CO2, or light, limited and the leaves are above the surface, so they don't collect algae. I called this approach the <"Duckweed...

Yr anubias should work otherwise java fern.Moss likes stability like shrimp and can die back quite a bit when switching to submerged form.Prob safe to put in red cherry shrimp.Just continue keeping yr fish well fed.

I've made quite a few changes this week! As well as adding a lot more plants, I've also raised the substrate level at the back. I was a bit unsure about changing that in an existing tank but it wasn't too hard. I just made sure to move things very slowly. I've added some floating plants...

Hi all, I like the black lava rocks. Just add some floating plants, that gets around both light and CO2 as issues, this is because you don't need to add CO2 (for any of the plants you already have, and the floating plants have access to 400 ppm of atmospheric CO2) and you can use the floating...

Hi all, You can do either. if you add a regular dose of fertiliser you won't need the full EI dosage, and I might start with 1/4 of EI. At the moment I'm using a sort of hybrid "duckweed index", where I add small doses of "Epsom Salts" (MgSO4.7H2O) and FeEDTA regularly, but only add a complete...

Hi all, It will be a nutrient effect. That is partially why I prefer Pistia, Salvinia and Limnobium (to the original Duckweed (Lemna minor)) for the <"Duckweed Index">, they get smaller under lower nutrients, whilst Duckweed tends to just die. What colour are the smaller plants? cheers Darrel

So would you advise me running my light for 10-12 hours for the extra photo period until my new light arrives ? Are you saying having a more intense light with a high plant base would stop algae or reduce the affects? I'm guessing ferts would have to be on the medium to high side for an...

Hi all, That would be my guess, judging by the increased internodal length of your stem plants, but it is really difficult for us to give advice on light intensity. I can look at a tank and light and make some guesses for what might grow, but even then it is just guess work (based on the look...

My tank isn't really equipped for duck weed because of the skimmer and above average flow. I only use the NO3 test kits to see if there is no NO3, not to see if there is any. If that makes sense? Not perfect by any means but it gives me a rough idea.

Hi all, It could be the tank was potassium (K) deficient. Because nearly all potassium compounds are soluble any potassium present in the tank will be as plant available K+ ions. Once K+ was non limiting the plants could take up the "spare" NO3- and PO4--- ions The other option is back to the...

Hi all, I don't have specific pictures that relate growth to each individual nutrient. Usually I just add a complete fertiliser mix when plant growth has slowed unacceptably. The exception to that is the "easy to pick out" iron (Fe) deficiency. This is what iron deficiency looks like (look at...

Hi all, That is sort of why I've pushed the <"Duckweed Index">. It has a basis in science, but all the interesting/scary* bits are hidden under the hood. Personally I would like to be able to quantify everything about the way a tank works, how plants grow, the interaction between DOC and...

Hi all, Your fish look in good health, but the plants really are suffering from lack of nutrients. Do you have a <"conductivity (TDS) meter?"> it woud give us a bit of idea about the likely nutrient status of the water. Have a look at the <"Tropica "easy" category"> for some more plant...

Hi all, I like to have a conductivity meter, but it isn't essential. They are low maintenance bits of kit. A low range meter (0 - 999microS) would be more accurate than the linked one, but the linked one would work, you are only after a "ball park" figure. Pretty much. You assess the health...

Hi all, I do, but ADA won't tell you what the fertiliser contains, so it will all be guesswork. My only comment is that this is probably the most expensive water on the planet in those bottles, and that the nutrient addition will be a fraction of EI levels. Personally I use a different...

Hi all, That sounds about right, and I wouldn't worry too much about anything else. If you have the "rotten eggs" smell it means that you've had some hydrogen sulphide (H2S) production. When you have anaerobic nitrate reduction (denitrification) you can easily topple over the edge and get...

Hi all, All plants grow better with more nutrients. There isn't really any difference between the green algae and your aquarium plants, <"they are all plants">, just the <"plants you want" and the "plants you don't">. Have a look at <"GSA and phosphates.."> and the linked <"Open University...

Hi all, I'd add some more nitrogen and phosphorus and probably reduce the amount of magnesium. Why don't you try the <"Duckweed Index">? You would need a floating plant, (I use <"Limnobium laevigatum">), but it gets around problems of trying to second guess deficiency symptoms or make up your...

That's great Darrel, I'll get it ordered then. Thanks very much for sharing this very useful tool. That shows my knowledge on Lemna Minor! You mentioned before that this is really a soft water factor, which is why you switched to Limnobium Laevigatum for the Index. So there's really nothing...

Hi all, I actually use a floating plant (and usually Limnobium) as an indicator of nutrient deficiencies, this is mainly because you can discount CO2 shortage as a cause of any symptoms. I called it this method the <"Duckweed Index">, partially because it was an alternative approach to...

Be carefull with sunlight!. I love sunlight in a tank, but it can be a lot of light which means CO2 problems. It can help if you time your lighting to coincide with the sunlight, best starting just before, and time the CO2 with that too. Use this as the "duckweed index" by Darrel. If these show...

Hi all, You do, but they need a <"much lower level of fertilisers"> than a quicker growing plant. Because they are slow growing any nutrient deficiencies take longer to show symptoms in the leaves. Due to this slow growth I'd recommend @azawaza's suggestion of adding some faster growing stems...

I was fairly sure you could correct me on that. Duly noted. Thanks :) Currently dosing 1/2 dose EI, but was a bit on the fence with that. I will continue, and keep an eye on plants on when to up it. Thanks. That picture is in sunlight only. I really like it too! Favorite spot for a bit of...

Hi all, All plants can take in nutrients throught their leaves, so root feeders isn't a particularly useful term. Because you have some Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum), and emergent Myriophyllum, you could use either of those as a visual indictor of nutrient status, via the <"Duckweed Index">...

Hi all, Sorry for your loss, I have't kept them, but I think Shadow cats ("Hyalobagrus flavus") are quite delicate, and these would have been imported wild caught. Do you have a picture of the tank? It will give us a bit more idea of what the plant mass was like, and how well the plants are...

Hi all, We can. The plants don't look too bad. It may be a deficiency of nitrate (NO3-) or phosphate (PO4---), because the <"Ferropol"> doesn't contain these, and plants require them in quite large amounts. Plant growth is a bit like a car assembly line it is regulated by the limiting nutrient...

Hi all, Most plants will do, originally I used a floating plant to take CO2 out of the equation (aerial leaves have access to 400ppm of atmospheric CO2). You are right about Duckweed (Lemna minor) it isn't suitable for every aquarium, it doesn't like low nutrients or soft water, and when its...

Hi all, I can't tell from the plants, but adding some magnesium (Mg) won't hurt. You can use "Epsom Salts" (MgSO4.7H2O) as your Mg source, they are ~10% Mg. If you see the same symptoms on a floating plant you could have an iron deficiency. Yellow (chlorotic) new leaves are a sign of the...

Hi all, Personally I would <"carry on using the TNC">, but with lean dosing, until you get some sort of balance. Plants require all the <"essential nutrients">, just in <"widely differing amounts">. For example your water company isn't legally required to tell you how much phosphate (PO4---)...

Hi all, I think you should be all right, and that your plants will eventually grow, if you can sort out your CO2 issues. These are good plants for long term set ups, a lot of people eventually actually get fed up with the constant trimming and re-planting that stems require. From the pictures...

Hi all, Salvinia? it works really well. In terms of its growth it is just as good as Pistia or Limnobium, and has been used extensively in tropical regions for water treatment. I <"prefer Limnobium"> for the Duckweed index, just because it is greener plant and it makes it easier to pick up...

Hi all, You can use it for both. Sand substrate, some structural leaf litter and low tech plants. If you have Corydoras pygmaeus, Corydoras panda or Corydoras hastatus (and there are probably others where you get fry with the parents present) you can have a permanent set-up, other species (egg...

Hi all, What @zozo says, it is an obligate floater. The whisk shaped hairs are highly water repellent. If you find the older leaves are sinking, and the new leaves are very small, that is usually a sign of low nutrients. Because floating plants aren't CO2 limited they are a useful <"visual...

Hi all, You try the <"Duckweed Index">. It is just a simple technique where you use the health of a floating plant (originally Duckweed (Lemna minor), but I usually use Amazon Frogbit (<"Limnobium laevigatum">) now) to indicate the nutrient status of the tank. It uses a floating plant to...

Hi all, Like @AverageWhiteBloke says it is just a technique where you use a floating plant (so it isn't CO2 limited) as an indicator of nutrient status. As long as the plants are growing you you just carry with water changes etc. when the floating plants look less healthy you feed them. I...

I think this is where EI comes into effect, it eliminates the guess work out of fertilisation. If you suspect that there are some issues just dose full EI for a month or so and see if anything changes. It's part of the elimination process. I think combining the two methods EI/DWI is the two most...

Hi Darrel - though I think I've read most of what you've posted about the duckweed index, I wonder if I've missed some info where you've possibly commented on how one might interpret different 'symptoms' as seen with Limnobium ? For example in one of my tanks the majority of the Limnobium...

I tend to harvest floaters if the Limnobium turns yellow to better match the plant biomass to the waste production of the fauna in the tank. Fertilizer would work to green the floaters but I have too many already so I (and my composting worms) am always happy if it time to harvest.

Hi all, That is it. The wet earth smell is the aerobic micro-organisms. If you have rotten smelling media then it has become anaerobic and you can smell a mix of ammonia (NH3) and, if things are really bad, hydrogen sulphide (H2S). There is a fuller description in <"Winogradsky column">. I've...

Hi all, Like @ian_m says, just let the plants grow in for a lot longer. Planted tanks are never "cycled" in the way a non-planted tank would be. <"Cycling is a divisive issue">, but that thread (and links in it) gives a bit of back-ground. That is soft water. Duckweed (Lemna minor) likes a...

Hi all, I don't know what the answer is, but if you look at the older leaves on the <"Amazon Frogbit">, they are looking distinctly un-happy, so it isn't CO2 deficiency. This was why I choose a floating plant (with access) for the Duckweed Index it takes CO2 deficiency out of the equation...

I had opportunity to use Seachem's "Seed" recently & was pleasantly surprised at how well it coped. While floating plants might be fine to use in the Flex as startup plants, the LED stocked on this tank is of such low intensity that I'd severely limit floaters if I wanted plant growth at the...

Hi all, Get away with you, it is quite straight forward. I started measuring the conductivity because it was the only parameter that I could measure easily (and quickly) with a dip meter. From <"Best way to cycle...."> Subsequently I realized that, because the datum for every tank would...

I struggle with frogbit it never grows well for me even though other plants in the same tank are growing ! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi all, Definitely Amazon Frogbit (<"Limnobium laevigatum">) for me. You can have it in any, and every, tank. It is a floater, so it isn't CO2 limited, and if it is showing deficiency symptoms you know that it isn't carbon. It doesn't care about the pH, or temperature, of the water. It will...

Hi all, I think the more "polluted" your tank water is the more useful floaters are. I do the same as @sciencefiction with plant mass, I just let it grow until it reaches peak plant. I've found that both Salvinia "auriculata" & Limnobium laevigatum will persist at very low nutrient levels. I...

Hi all, Best method. Just move the filter media over a soon as you plant the tank. The suggestion that the filter bacteria will die if they aren't fed a constant stream of ammonia isn't true, the assemblage will change to reflect the nutrient supply, but you won't lose the nitrifying...

Hi all, You still feed the plants. I'm a rain-water user, so I can be pretty sure there isn't much nitrogen in my water change water. I'll use the <"Duckweed Index"> as an indication of when to feed, but other people will use some fraction of EI, it really doesn't matter. Also because I...

Hi all, I think the simple answer is "yes you could use much lower levels of fertiliser dosing". There will be a few plants that need everything (light, warmth, nutrient levels) <"turned up to 11">, but most will do with less. You would need to ask Tom, but I think the original premise was...