Fluval Bio - Stratum - Absorbing PO4 ?

[AquariusPeter]

Hi all,

I don't know where to put this post but I hope moderator won't kill me. I am writing here regarding my Fluval Bio - Stratum...
Before I describe the problem i will put some more details about my tank.

1. Tank Fluval Roma 125l

2. Substrate:

• Fluval Bio Stratum (under gravel)
• Gravel gradation 2-3 mm

3. Filtration:

• JBL E902 with spray bar for better circulation and agitation of water surface

4. Lighting

• Fluval Aquasky 2.0 reeady with set roma 125l - 30% of power with Blue spectrum reduced to 15%
• Fluval Plant 3.0 60cm/32W - 30% of power with Blue spectrum reduced to 15%

5. Fertilizers:

• TNC Complete
• TNC Lite
• TNC Iron AT DTPA
• Fe EDDHA solution

6. Water:

• Tap Water which is ~12 Gh ~7 Kh and is relatively high in Nitrates and Phosphates

7. Flora:

• Hygrophila Corymbosa
• Hygrophila Polysperma
• Ludwigia Palustris Red
• Microsorium Pteropus
• Cryptocoryne
• Rotala Rotundifolia
• Rotala Wallichi (On the edge of death)

8. Fauna:

• 5x Orange Platies
• 2x Zebra Snails
• Some of Red Cherry Schirmps

Because of this tank is relatively fresh as it's started few months ago, I have still problem with Brown/Diatoms algae and in the past weeks i had problems with Hair algae as well. From few days I am observing signs of cyanobacteria(as I guess- it is) on the front glass , I photographed them today. I have read that cyanobacteria could be from excessive PO4 and NO3...

I have tested my tank water column with my JBL Test for PO4....
Test Results was - 0mg/l....

Then I took the tap water straight from the Tap and i did test again just to see what is going on in my tap water:

Well let me attach photo below:



On the photo above in vial is tap water ---> straight from my tap.

Well I was about to buy/order dry salts KH2PO4 just to refill PO4, but I realised my Tap Water has more than enough, and TNC Complete which I am no dosing really often.

My conclusion is Fluval Bio - Stratum - PO4 Absorber ....

Is this possible that this substrate Fluval Bio-Stratum, everytime when i do my water changes, absorbing PO4 and during the tests is showing me 0 ???

If yes so then i might be living on ticking bomb...


I have done some tests on NO3 in my tank and tap water as well. But these ones looks allright.

I am really thinking what to do right now... Because If my tap water is high in Nitrates, Posphates, and if I keep continuing with my water changes then this substrate one day will explode with PO4, or it has started already been doing it ....



For the moment I am considering restart with just the gravel about gradation 2-3mm.... before it will end up with disaster

or

Not keep with Water Changes and dosing only Fe DTPA with EDDHA.... But this option would much more harder to keep fight with algae in whatever way i can...

Let me know guys what you think about it ?

What steps should I follow in this kind of situation ?

Thank you,

Kind Regards

Peter

 

[Bradders]

From what I understand (I am still a plant junior) aquasoil, especially new substrate, adsorbs phosphates found in the water column due to Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC). Over time, as the aqua soil becomes saturated with phosphates, it will release them back into the water column but in a gradual fashion - not necessarily a dump. Plants need PO4 so the ones that are planted will use this within their roots, so some of this (assuming a plant mass) will be used/depleted by the plants. So, there would be a balance between the input of PO4 and the consumption of PO4 by the sheer nature of a planted aquarium.

In my tiny little mind, the storage of PO4 in aquasoil and then a huge dump X months down the line would mean that there is lots of PO4 going in, but nothing consuming it ever, which would be pretty odd in a nicely planted aquarium.

 

[AquariusPeter]

Hi all,

From what I understand (I am still a plant junior) aquasoil, especially new substrate, adsorbs phosphates found in the water column due to Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC). Over time, as the aqua soil becomes saturated with phosphates, it will release them back into the water column but in a gradual fashion - not necessarily a dump.

This is what I am worry about. If it will release them back into water column even if it is going be a gradual process, then I will add all the time addition PO4 from my tap water.

Now the question is, how really phosphates will be accumulating in the future in relation how much of them plants will be absorbing.

For the moment I am observing quite lots of algae in my tank.

Green spot algae on the leaves of cryptocorynes

Brown Algae lots of on gravel...

And that cyanobacteria what I spotted few days ago.

So if the substrate adsorbs the PO4, then the balance between NO3 and PO4 could be debalanced?

I am just wondering if this is could be one of the reason why I get GSA on the leaves on cryptocorynes ?

And

Cyanobacteria between glass and gravel ??

Or I missed maybe something else.

On the other case(because I forgot to mention) I have floating limnobium levigatum.

I am observing it everyday, in generally they not looking really bad,

It is just wondering that some of the older leaves on the edges getting slightly yellowish...


And on the stem plants older leaves getting a bit black on the edges...

I was looking for deficiency and it looks to me like there is lack of PO4....


But I guess stem plants suppose to have access to the PO4 by their roots if Fluval Bio Stratum is absorbing PO4 from my tap water.

Today in the morning I added some more IronAT(DTPA) from TNC.

I have done some test for GH and KH .

My GH at the moment in Tank is 10

And KH is 4

Where my tap water
gH is ~12
kH ~7

 

[palcente]

Immediate thing I noticed, is the height of your tank and diatoms? Is that a new tank? Do you have water movement at the substrate level? In my experience, cyano is triggered by p:n imbalance in p favour. When you test po4, you want to get the water at the substrate level. Similarly to counteract accumulation somewhat, when you do your water change, you want to draw from the bottom. Best to use RO water to avoid the problem. You did not say if you use CO2, you will be more likely missing N, if you observe any plant issues, but realistically without CO2 and your plant density if you have your light adjusted correctly, you won't observe any deficiencies, rather an imbalance. Your light might be too bright, look at the picture xx2555 and stuff growing on the glass (unless that's diatoms). When you finally find balance your glass won't have anything growing on it. What I would advice; as you introduce changes, cut the healthy top of your hygrophilla and plant that in the open. Then watch as it reacts, best indicator. It will be trial and error, but you will learn a ton.

Matt

 

[AquariusPeter]

Hi all,

Do you have water movement at the substrate level?

I recently put the spraybar along the back so it is spraying water towards front of the glass.
Leaves of the cryptocorynes are waving so I guess there is water movement.
There was a day's when I was considering maybe just but small wave maker for better movement. But it is fluval roma 125 I and the intake pipe to jbl e 902 have on the left side and my output on the right side with spraybar. This is because fluval roma125l doesn't really have space on the back to be able to put pipes intake and output on the same side.
If I decided to buy potential wave maker or any small circulating pump i don't really know on what side to put it to make it effective work and circulating my water. And wavemaker might be to strong even any smallest one/version wave maker.

In my experience, cyano is triggered by p:n imbalance in p favour.

That is what is confusing me now, because substrate adsorbing PO4 and it could be causing debalance with NO3 in water column...

You did not say if you use CO2

I am not using CO2

Your light might be too bright, look at the picture xx2555 and stuff growing on the glass.

Fluval aquasky I got with Fluval Roma 125 is set on 30% blue spectrum is reduced to 15%

Fluval plant 3.0 60cm(32W) is as well set on 30% with blue spectrum reduced to 15%.

From both Leds is total 60% of power.

Would you suggest to decrease the power by 5% on each lamp to get total 50% ??

When you finally find balance your glass won't have anything growing on it. What I would advice; as you introduce changes, cut the healthy top of your hygrophilla and plant that in the open. Then watch as it reacts, best indicator. It will be trial and error, but you will learn a ton.

On the glass I have (I think) brown/diatoms algae? Was plenty on glass I wipe it every time I do WC.

My gravel condition as you could propavly see on the photos is bad condition- is brown, not clear and nice look...

To this tank I could have plenty questions but I don't know If I am right to put them here.

Thank you anyway guys for your help and answer.

Kind Regards

Peter

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

From few days I am observing signs of cyanobacteria(as I guess- it is) on the front glass , I photographed them today. I have read that cyanobacteria could be from excessive PO4 and NO3...

They can, but I'd honestly ignore that.

There are cyanobacteria that occur in all different water conditions <"General effects of eutrophication">, they've had 3,500,000,000 million years <"to evolve in"> so I'd guess that there is a cyanobacterial "peg" to fit in every shape of hole.

You'll also find suggestions that increasing nitrate (NO3-) levels controls cyanobacteria, because <"many are nitrogen fixing">. Oscillatoria spp. are cyanobacteria that members have identified from <"their aquariums"> and they aren't nitrogen fixing, so it is <"all swings and roundabouts"> really.

Well I was about to buy/order dry salts KH2PO4 just to refill PO4, but I realised my Tap Water has more than enough, and TNC Complete which I am no dosing really often. My conclusion is Fluval Bio - Stratum - PO4 Absorber .... Is this possible that this substrate Fluval Bio-Stratum, everytime when i do my water changes, absorbing PO4 and during the tests is showing me 0 ??? If yes so then i might be living on ticking bomb...

Phosphate (PO4---) is one of the <"easier nutrients to test for">, so it may well be an accurate value and exchanging into the substrate, but PO4--- is <"very weakly bound"> so I'm guessing that this isn't the answer. As you have hard, alkaline water, you are likely to have deposition of <"insoluble calcium phosphate complexes">, because phosphate forms a lot of insoluble compounds, and I'd guess that is where your PO4--- ions are ending up.

Anion exchange is <"less straightforward than cation exchange">, but even if your substrates exchange sites were fully loaded with PO4--- ions? They would only equilibrate with the level in the tank water.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

On the other case(because I forgot to mention) I have floating limnobium laevigatum. I am observing it everyday, in generally they not looking really bad,
It is just wondering that some of the older leaves on the edges getting slightly yellowish...

That may be a nitrate, (NO3-), potassium (K), phosphate (PO4---), or magnesium (Mg) deficiency. Because they are <"all mobile nutrients"> within the plant you should get a pretty quick "greening" once you've added them.

TNC Complete

I'd add that now. I have the capability to test the tank water for nearly all the parameters we are interested in, but I don't <"New bit of kit - MP-AES">. This is partially lack of time, but also that I now realise it doesn't actually tell me anything like as much as the plant health does.

I have done some test for GH and KH .
My GH at the moment in Tank is 10
And KH is 4
Where my tap water
gH is ~12
kH ~7

Honestly I would just look a the plants, they can't lie of mislead, if you like, they are your test kit.

cheers Darrel

 

[AquariusPeter]

Hi all,

That may be a nitrate, (NO3-), potassium (K), phosphate (PO4---), or magnesium (Mg) deficiency. Because they are <"all mobile nutrients"> within the plant you should get a pretty quick "greening" once you've added them.

Honestly I would just look a the plants, they can't lie of mislead, if you like, they are your test kit.

This is what I am trying to learn, but I have a lack of experience that is why I have lots of doubts and questions. So according to the visual tissue assessment below:

On below I will add some photos of my plants:

According to the label I kept i bought this Nomaphila Siamensis about 2 weeks ago. If you could look on the older leaves - the edges are dark/black . I hope on the photo we can clearly see that some of the leaves are darker/black. Looking on that visual tissue assessment it looks to me lack of P. I am not expert that is the reason I am trying to figure it out what is wrong with my tank.

Let me put some more photsos:



On the photo above is if I well remember Hygrophila Corymbosa. And it is in the tank from the begining. All the time problem with older leaves on lower nodes they getting darker with time. I could say all plants behaving like that. I decided just to remove the old really dark leaves, as they started rooting just to prevent ammonia spikes...

On the photo below Cryptocoryne Beckett on the right side of my tank if look onto it from the front photo, i put in previous posts.

On this one, on the older leaves plenty GSA (i think) algae.

Below again Nomaphila Siamensis.
Older leaves getting black/darker, what it could be deficiency of P...


On the photo below Hygrphila Corymbosa if I well remember
Older Leaves covered by little hair algae and also edges of the leaves getting dark/black.

On the photo below Cryptocoryne Becketti as well but on the left side when you look on my tank from the front.
After last maintenance i removed plenty yellow, hair algae infected leaves.


On the photo below Rotala Rotundifolia bought about 2 weeks ago:


I think it is still transforming to submerse form, but young tiny leaves as well darkening....

The same here: with Hygrophila Polysperma:
Fresh young leaves(they may not be ideally green because of still I trying figure out with iron), but the older ones again getting dark/blackish....


So I mixing something or I don't really understand something.

If my tap water has plenty PO4 as it is showed on the photos my previous posts.
In my tank in water showed me that PO4 is 0 - Clear- No blue test...
Then If read properly my plants that black leaves would be indicating for lack of P. Substrate suppose to have that PO4 as it looks it is absorbing them. So the plants suppose to be fed through the roots...

I have been dosing during summer time TNC Complete together with TNC Lite and TNC FeDTPA. I had problem with hair algae, so I stopped dosing it.

I started dosing some Floruish Excel. I have done couple of big water changes and they started to come off from the plants.

Now I have been dosing TNC lite and Fe DTPA from TNC plus EDDHa. The growth of the plants is so slow... leaves darkening blacking

Plants showing deficiences . . . I went for that visual tissue assessment just to help myself.... but it looks like i am lost right now...

I have one other question. Is this gradation of my gravel can cause denitrification ?

I am thinking maybe to add some small wave-maker to mount it on the side where my intake pipe is, and make its flow in diagonal direction across my tank...

Thank you very much for your help guys

Kind Regards

Peter

 

[Sanniejop]

Because of this tank is relatively fresh as it's started few months ago, I have still problem with Brown/Diatoms algae and in the past weeks i had problems with Hair algae as well. From few days I am observing signs of cyanobacteria(as I guess- it is) on the front glass , I photographed them today. I have read that cyanobacteria could be from excessive PO4 and NO3...

I have tested my tank water column with my JBL Test for PO4....
Test Results was - 0mg/l....

Sorry, maybe somebody already mentioned or not, I did not read the whole thread but I was triggered by this remark.
My personal experience is (I have struggled long time with cyanobacteria) that when the PO4 is very low or zero (as newby I though that PO4 was only bad, so I was not dosing it) you get cyanobacteria/BGA. When I found out that plants need PO4 and I started dosing it, the BGA disappeared as snow for the sun. So when somebody is struggling with BGA my first question is always if they dose PO4....

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Now I have been dosing TNC lite and Fe DTPA from TNC plus EDDHa. The growth of the plants is so slow... leaves darkening blacking .. I started dosing some Floruish Excel.

Plants showing deficiences . . . I went for that visual tissue assessment just to help myself.... but it looks like i am lost right now...

Honestly that is your problem, you aren't supplying <"at least one of the nutrients necessary for plant growth">.

I have been dosing during summer time TNC Complete together with TNC Lite and TNC FeDTPA. I had problem with hair algae, so I stopped dosing it.

When you were dosing the TNC Complete the green algal growth tells you that all the nutrients required by plants were present in the water column. The Green Algae have the same basis photosystems and physiology as the "plants you want", they are just <"plants you don't want">, but they are still "plants".

If my tap water has plenty PO4 as it is showed on the photos my previous posts.
In my tank in water showed me that PO4 is 0 - Clear- No blue test...

It could be that <"the iron (Fe++(+)) ions are stripping"> the, reduced number of, phosphate (PO4---) ions <"out of the water column">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Sanniejop]

As you have hard, alkaline water, you are likely to have deposition of <"insoluble calcium phosphate complexes">, because phosphate forms a lot of insoluble compounds, and I'd guess that is where your PO4--- ions are ending up.

Hi Darrel, I was aware that this type of reaction was happening with Fe and PO4. But I understand it can also happen with Ca and PO4.
To prevent it happening with Fe we try to keep the Ph low (to keep the Fe chelated) and dose Fe and PO4 a bit separately both in separate bottles and dosing time.
But Ca is always present (at least in my tap/tank water). How can we prevent it reacting with PO4 forming calcium phosphate?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

But Ca is always present (at least in my tap/tank water). How can we prevent it reacting with PO4 forming calcium phosphate?

You can't stop it, but the main difference is that you only need a limited, and occasional, period of time when PO4--- ions are available. This is because phosphate is highly mobile within the plant, which can both shuffle it around photosynthetic tissue (from old to new leaves etc) and store it for a "rainy day".

This isn't true of iron, where it always needs to be plant available to stop deficiency symptoms appearing.

The other difference is that compounds like iron oxide(FeO2) and iron hydroxide (FeOH3) <"Iron(III) oxide-hydroxide - Wikipedia"> are <"really insoluble">. The same isn't true for calcium phosphate complexes (like bone) <"Calcium phosphate - Wikipedia"> they can become plant available again at lower pH etc.

Phosphate (PO4--) actually has a "goldilocks" pH zone (above pH 6, below pH 7), because if pH levels are really low it forms <"insoluble aluminium and iron phosphate complexes">.


cheers Darrel

 

[Sanniejop]

@dw1305 Ok. I was always thinking i had trouble with formation of FeP causing a misty look of the water after water changes and dosing Fe. But looking at this graph i am wondering if this is true. It looks more likely that this was also caused by a CaP reaction. Is it posible that it cases misty water?

Ca should also always be available like Fe I assume?

So you are saying that it is best to keep the Ph around 6.5 so that both P and Ca are kept available?
Thanks in advance

P.S. I am wondering how it is going with OP's @AquariusPeter tank?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

@dw1305 Ok. I was always thinking i had trouble with formation of FeP causing a misty look of the water after water changes and dosing Fe. But looking at this graph i am wondering if this is true. It looks more likely that this was also caused by a CaP reaction. Is it posible that it cases misty water?

Cloudy water definitely sounds like <"a precipitate is forming">.

Ca should also always be available like Fe I assume?

Plants don't need much calcium (Ca), and I'm guessing that very few of us have seen, or will see, calcium deficiency.

So you are saying that it is best to keep the Ph around 6.5 so that both P and Ca are kept available?

No, I wouldn't be too bothered. Because of the <"carbonate, CO2 pH equilibrium"> a lot of fresh water has a pH value of pH8, and it also <"has plenty of plants">. You can get chelated phosphorus, but I don't see it as necessary.

Cheers Darrel