A reflection - putting it all into one scape

[JoshP12]

What size tank have you got through in a week Josh?

10lbs minus probably a “bunch” when I had the rubber stopper missing for a bit while tank was open (no clue how much that equates to).

I'm still impressed that you haven't got any GDA on the rocks etc - any thoughts on why? Could it be related to the super low pH that would presumably result from so much CO2?

In what I’ve read/experienced low pH exacerbates GDA … but I’ll have to think about it. I don’t have a solid answer.

Also, I may have missed it earlier on, but what are your current fert dosing targets?

On the plant pictures you've posted above, what plant is that - Macrandra Red? What do you think is causing the leaf curling?

Supposed to be ludwigia arcuata. It’s the only plant doing it (rest are like soldiers) —- I don’t think it’s the narrow leaf variety (wasn’t labelled) … some of ludwigia do this (Sengalegensis) but I was wondering that myself.

I means it’s a lot of light, so I wonder if it’s just trying to adapt to it still. I’ll check christels book on what arcuata is used to in the wild. The Rotala species all love it.

 

[Wookii]

I assume that's ppm? Is that a weekly total?

 

[JoshP12]

I assume that's ppm? Is that a weekly total?

Yep and its the full dosage I add in at water change. So it’s daily dose at the moment paired with water change.

The process is normally: change water, dose that target, then 10% - 20% (depending on observations) of that total dose (it’s one solution) daily until I water change again … where I would do full dosage.

 

[JoshP12]

Probably just let the tank go for the next week or so and update then.

I can’t do it. I tried.

Benefits of going blind on co2: you use lots 😂. Joking - I think what’s important is to test but not take it too seriously. Truth is having reduced my co2, I think I’m bang on but I don’t want to risk being not bang on simply for an ego boost of going blind. Maybe if the tank was grown in and not at such a volatile stage.

So, realized we had some water bottles with around 285 ppm KH: 285/4=71.5 how perfect ~ 4kh.

I hate the scale and I hate measuring dry salts - in part why I used the same drop checker solution for a year.

Serial dilution with distilled water - let’s gooo!

3x: (from left to right in photo) 8dkh, 5-6dkh (kind of - just 1:3 dilution keep it simple), 4dkh




Let’s see where this co2 is at.

 

[JoshP12]

Water cloudier than ever + more surface scum … less co2, higher pH … better bacterial activity?

Neat.

 

[JoshP12]

Drop checkers are not degassing quick at all.

The 8dkh was the greenest of all and still yellow … I’m probably in the 70s if not more.

During water change, it turned green but the rest stayed bright yellow.

During the pm offgas, the 8dkh is the only one with any hints of blue. The rest of are lime greeney-yellow.

The co2 before was astronomical as I probably cut the injection rate it by a third.

Previous experience shows this much co2 has been injected but of course with larger plant mass but off gassed much much much faster.

I think this uncovers a new intuition —- the power of flow. I always knew the influence on nutrient delivery but I had failed to see the influence on saturation … with the wet/dry mimic (though not entirely the same and I suppose just a weir), I was expecting a vigorous offgas and we don’t see that.

I may actually be able to run lower levels of co2 - despite my initial intent of how much can I get in … perhaps I can get stronger plant forms with less co2 due to this better saturation/flow.

Take from Rich: water change, water parameter stability, and co2 application

Take from lean: lean column parameters and rich substrate

Optimal?

I suppose all we’re finding here is an ADA system with a Lilly pipe ………

 

[Wookii]

The co2 before was astronomical as I probably cut the injection rate it by a third.

I'm not surprised if you managed to chew through a 4.5Kg bottle in a week. That'd last me 6 months on a 100 litre tank typically, with a 12 hour photo period - those sorts of levels would be impossible to reasonably off-gas over night, especially with a 10 hour photo period, without using something like multiple air stones. My drop checkers rarely get further than dark green from off-gassing, even with fairly vigorous surface agitation.

I’m probably in the 70s if not more.

Well into the multiple hundreds I'd wager (assuming you're talking PPM).

 

[JoshP12]

I'm not surprised if you managed to chew through a 4.5Kg bottle in a week. That'd last me 6 months on a 100 litre tank typically, with a 12 hour photo period - those sorts of levels would be impossible to reasonably off-gas over night, especially with a 10 hour photo period, without using something like multiple air stones. My drop checkers rarely get further than dark green from off-gassing, even with fairly vigorous surface agitation.

The weir is pretty intense. It isn't agitation anymore, literally a waterfall. I was actually expecting it to offgas. I will keep an eye and slowly drop co2 to see. And yes ... it has lasted me much longer than 1 week before - haha!

Well into the multiple hundreds I'd wager (assuming you're talking PPM).

Ya ppm ... these plants are definitely not CO2 deficient!

 

[John q]

ppm ... these plants are definitely not CO2 deficient!

Lacking in something, they look like sh*t. 👍

 

[JoshP12]

View attachment 194937
Lacking in something, they look like sh*t. 👍

So check this:


Only change is less co2 + now higher pH.

When I first started fiddling with co2 (not now in other tanks), I noticed as the pH was allowed to rise during photoperiod, the plants “loosened themselves up” … going to keep pulling off the gas and see if they straighten out.

Had a hunch ages ago that there is optimal pH despite free co2 in water — perhaps has to do with Rubisco functioning at higher pH but have no clue.

 

[John q]

Maybe it's a co2, o2 balance? I Honestly don't know, I sound like @_Maq_ 🤐

 

[JoshP12]

Maybe it's a co2, o2 balance? I Honestly don't know, I sound like @_Maq_ 🤐

These things have roots now so no bacteria necessarily to help the roots but there is loads of light, loads of co2, loads of ferts, max o2 via weir - I mean isn’t pH a proxy and a decently bad and good one at that lol. Just as bad as tds.

Lots of stuff behaves more efficiently closer to 7 ph … I’ll pull off the gas tonight and see if they calm down and uncurl over the next few days.

I’ll get some shots of the Rotalas too - the whole tank looks calmer, and the cloudy water suggested a bacterial bloom potentially … . Perhaps the extreme of co2 is in fact not so great … some have cured GDA with reducing co2 as well — and GDA is a if I recall part bacteria thing (so not exclusively a plant but perhaps protist in nature but don’t quote me - just memory).

Co2/O2 balance … not sure how to get more O2 in the system. So co2 is skewing it?

 

[JoshP12]

Just took a look - water change … tank pearling way more. Coincidence?



Wish I could go back to start up and run lower co2 with the 20h photo and infancy …. Issue with any test we do in this hobby.

Anyways … let’s see what lower co2 brings tomorrow.

 

[Wookii]

Wish I could go back to start up and run lower co2 with the 20h photo and infancy …. Issue with any test we do in this hobby.

This continues to be an interesting journey, so don't feel perturbed, but it has proved one thing - it's not really possible to 'eye ball' CO2 delivery without some sort of measurement device.

Are you getting more typical drop checker colouration now with your lower CO2 levels?

 

[Wookii]

Co2/O2 balance … not sure how to get more O2 in the system. So co2 is skewing it?

I suspect it's simply a case of too much CO2. It's fairly reasonable to hypothesise that extreme levels of CO2, and very low pH levels could be harmful to plants, in much the same way as they are other living organisms (it would have been ideal to know what your pH was and is now).

Certainly in the wild you see a reduction in plant number in lower pH environments, such as black water system - and whilst some of that is likely due to the water turbidity and reduced light, some is likely also due to the much lower pH.

 

[JoshP12]

This continues to be an interesting journey,

🙂

so don't feel perturbed, but it has proved one thing - it's not really possible to 'eye ball' CO2 delivery without some sort of measurement device.

I don’t know if that’s true! If I was more experienced, I would have known to pull off the gas sooner - I saw that curling instantly, but didn’t think to do that.

The measurement device was meant to be the plants but I need more experience to do it.

Are you getting more typical drop checker colouration now with your lower CO2 levels?

Yessir. Dropped it right down last night before water change and it was around 70 (green 8dkh), dropped it again so I’m banking on 40 ish when I check in today.

Aiming for that 30-40 range for the startup - I think it’s reasonable.

I suspect it's simply a case of too much CO2. It's fairly reasonable to hypothesise that extreme levels of CO2, and very low pH levels could be harmful to plants, in much the same way as they are other living organisms (it would have been ideal to know what your pH was and is now).

There is a minimum that it will go even with injecting more co2 (I think it’s 4.5 or something) but in any case, I only have bromothymol blue at home so I could only test down to 6ph anyways. Think it is safe to safe I was at 4-5. Now, it is probably 5.5-6 … but I’ll test it once my drop checker reads “properly”.

Certainly in the wild you see a reduction in plant number in lower pH environments, such as black water system - and whilst some of that is likely due to the water turbidity and reduced light, some is likely also due to the much lower pH.

Some of that pH drop is from tannins etc though mine was nearly purely co2 … unless my soil contributed from organics - but it was mostly co2.


I also think the fact that the plants are growing is pretty key. Think it’s very clear light doesn’t cause algae. But I think a better question is whether or not higher light levels are optimal over lower light levels.

And I think that can be fleshed out.

 

[Wookii]

Think it’s very clear light doesn’t cause algae.

I think that's a conclusion too far at this point - lets give it a couple of weeks at the more sensible CO2 levels 😉

 

[JoshP12]

Blegh, undershot co2 for the day. Benefit of having the high light and temp is super fast feedback.




Tried to take a photo but the reason I know I undershot co2 was immediately from a single clump of Monte Carlo - has those greyish tendrils (part-plant thing). … induced and cleared it up on HC in the past with co2. It’s not flow, it is pure concentration — drop checker is perfect for a mature, full grown tank stocked with fish - but not for startup (too much volatility with ammonia release etc).

 

[Wookii]

drop checker is perfect for a mature, full grown tank stocked with fish - but not for startup

Are you running three drop checkers there with different dKH solutions? The colours look fine to me, assuming the middle one is the 4dKH - the positioning might be a problem though, they'd be better down in the rear left hand corner as they are likely getting a lot of direct bubbles. Whereabouts are the filter inlets in the tank?

 

[JoshP12]

I think that's a conclusion too far at this point - lets give it a couple of weeks at the more sensible CO2 levels 😉

I already know it’s true! But we will wait.

Are you running three drop checkers there with different dKH solutions? The colours look fine to me, assuming the middle one is the 4dKH - the positioning might be a problem though, they'd be better down in the rear left hand corner as they are likely getting a lot of direct bubbles. Whereabouts are the filter inlets in the tank?

4,6,8

Color is fine if tank was established - for now regardless of any test, the co2 was undershot by just a little as little as 5ppm (making that up but just gave a number to illustrate). 95% of the plants are fine. Could be a flow pitfall in front left as well. But micro turn up and watch today.