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A reflection - putting it all into one scape

Monte Carlo starting to creep.

Rotala green beginning to pearl.

Hra turning red.

Arcuata getting smaller and lots of side shoots.

Helferi has green starting to poke out of insides - rest bleached.

Macrandra has these bright red tips and stem and stagnant.

Having a hunch my plants will be very petite.
 
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Things are just chugging along.

Getting tired of 2x/daily water change and tds isn’t creeping up as fast anymore so moving to 1x daily.

I’ll keep lights 20h (best move would be to slow down the system and drop it back to 10h).

Best - at 20h photo - would be to keep the 2x for another week just with the photoperiod and my substrate but can’t burn yourself out over the tank.

We know dropping to 10h will make things move properly. We know 2x with the 20h is proper.

So we try 1x with the 20 knowing tds creeping slower … probably just fine.

Cheers
 
Didn't realise you were changing twice daily - what percentage? I'd wager that's 'saving your bacon' currently!
Pump on, then it cuts when it gets to the barrier.

Timeline:
0) pre-planting ~ 1 week ran "dark start"
1) 1st few days: 10h, water change 1/day
2) next few up to yesterday: 20h, water change 2/day
3) Now 20h, water change 1/day

The choices I made weren't just willy nilly. In the infancy of a tank, you can't just crank the photoperiod to 20h without changing water more often ... more waste, and more ferts required. Alternatively, you can do a dose mid day just to keep things nice, but the waste accumulation starts to skew things especially when things are so volatile in the first weeks.

You need to up the frequency at some point if you start cranking metabolism - name of the game.
 
Perhaps less nervous as others about your schedule @JoshP12 .

The merit of 20 hours of light is up to the tank owner. Unsure what the outcome will be but it’s interesting to try these things. See what level of photo inhibition you experience from 12 hours onwards. A lot of Co2 required for long photoperiod length, but so what? 🤷🏻‍♂️

The choices I made weren't just willy nilly. In the infancy of a tank, you can't just crank the photoperiod to 20h without changing water more often ... more waste, and more ferts required.

This is no different than any high tech startup frankly. If you want to negate issues with rich substrate, you shift water early on. Pumping the substrate full of nutrients at the beginning has the additional water changes upfront as an added task, but gives locational choice of N in the longer run. Just may be a while longer before adding fish, but, yeah… woopty doo…

Also not concerned about the relatively high PAR input. Grow plants outside in the summer… you can’t turn down the sun.

Wet/dry filtering was a whole new world when first taken for a spin on that AS600 journal. Two ONF flat one light units with maximum overlapping, set to 100% from the get go, on a 60cm tank, at less than one foot depth… It was expected to be a disaster by most. You would expect carnage, but had very little to worry about due to continually high dissolved o2 levels. It’s a competition and as long as everything else is in check, plants win. How you get that o2 into the water is up to the owner.

If anything, wanted to experiment with even higher PAR, which is exactly what you are doing so should be interesting.

I'd wager that's 'saving your bacon' currently!

The water changes are compensation for the lack of plant mass. Not sure what an ideal water change schedule will be for Josh @Wookii but given it’s automated water changes, it should be easy to accommodate. Even if it landed as every 5 days for the first year with current plant choices, so be it. Available nutrition from the substrate is always diminishing.

Wouldn’t expect anyone starting out to try and replicate this as it sits right on the edge of anyones outcomes. Sure you’ll have plenty of feedback to grapple with at this high pace though, good for new learning. Just watch your tank like a hawk as often as you can. Looking forward to more updates 😉
 
Perhaps less nervous as others about your schedule @JoshP12 .
Huzzah!
The merit of 20 hours of light is up to the tank owner. Unsure what the outcome will be but it’s interesting to try these things. See what level of photo inhibition you experience from 12 hours onwards. A lot of Co2 required for long photoperiod length, but so what? 🤷🏻‍♂️
I think the sweet is 8-12 ... probably 10. Other sides of this is diminishing returns. 6h probably the minimum. 20h probably the maximum. I think 20-24h is really going to get bad, but we won't notice it until a month or two of stress.
This is no different than any high tech startup frankly. If you want to negate issues with rich substrate, you shift water early on. Pumping the substrate full of nutrients at the beginning has the additional water changes upfront as an added task, but gives locational choice of N in the longer run. Just may be a while longer before adding fish, but, yeah… woopty doo…
To me, it seems like homemade amazonia? Maybe a bit more potent?
Also not concerned about the relatively high PAR input. Grow plants outside in the summer… you can’t turn down the sun.
Well ... your comment led me to p. 529 /530 of Christel Kasselmaan's book (if anyone doesn't have it, I strongly encourage you to contact her and buy it). Biotope 66 -- 1620 PAR at 1PM noon: the habitat of Rotala Macrandra (well one of). Then I saw these (these are top down shots):
1663977652366.png

Those bright red leaves are the macrandra.

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Arcuatas sending loads of side shoots and the one is turning red.

Wet/dry filtering was a whole new world when first taken for a spin on that AS600 journal. Two ONF flat one light units with maximum overlapping, set to 100% from the get go, on a 60cm tank, at less than one foot depth… It was expected to be a disaster by most. You would expect carnage, but had very little to worry about due to continually high dissolved o2 levels. It’s a competition and as long as everything else is in check, plants win. How you get that o2 into the water is up to the owner.
Was inspired when I first saw that thread and it was the one that led me down the road of higher light initially.
If anything, wanted to experiment with even higher PAR, which is exactly what you are doing so should be interesting.

The water changes are compensation for the lack of plant mass. Not sure what an ideal water change schedule will be for Josh @Wookii but given it’s automated water changes, it should be easy to accommodate. Even if it landed as every 5 days for the first year with current plant choices, so be it. Available nutrition from the substrate is always diminishing.
Immediately noticed today that the water was murkier and tds slightly higher than usual at the evening water change. The 2x a day were safer but the 1x a day will be enough. I'm thinking we will be able to ween to weekly or once every 4ish day within a few weeks once plant mass rolls in.
Wouldn’t expect anyone starting out to try and replicate this as it sits right on the edge of anyones outcomes. Sure you’ll have plenty of feedback to grapple with at this high pace though, good for new learning. Just watch your tank like a hawk as often as you can. Looking forward to more updates 😉
Irony is I haven't even looked at the hardscape since planting.

As far as observations go, the side shoots that I am seeing, I only ever saw when dosing EI levels of N/P in the column. In other words, abundance of nutrients isn't the only trigger for side shoots (the arcuate has 2 at each node on most stems now which I also haven't seen in such a "young" plant before).

Macrandra is redder and tighter than ever at such a "young" age. Also much redder than I have seen this early.

Helferi plugging along.

Monte carlo seems to be creeping.

Hra and rotala green seem happy?


Let's see what tomorrow brings.
 
Macrandra is redder and tighter than ever at such a "young" age. Also much redder than I have seen this early.

1000 PAR plus will do it. It’s cool to see the environmental adaptations packed so tightly. Amazonia type 1 and Solar RGB’s central (200 PAR) and you would see the same over 3 inches of growth on macrandra.

Initial plant growth has had their life line cut, white as snow. Up to you but would trim those bits off if it’s feasible, although can see against the scale of the soil it might be too tiny to get scissors on.

Easier to do early on before new growth smothers it. Could just wait for it to decay and get jettisoned off… but if it gets tangled up you’ll have decaying organics right next to fresh growth, not ideal. Quick blast with a turkey baster at the one month mark? Knock it all off. Probably overkill as you’re doing the water changes.

Well ... your comment led me to p. 529 /530 of Christel Kasselmaan's book (if anyone doesn't have it, I strongly encourage you to contact her and buy it). Biotope 66 -- 1620 PAR at 1PM noon: the habitat of Rotala Macrandra (well one of).

Have seen carpets of Cryptocoryne in the jungle in the Philippines getting blasted at noon. What holds as reasonably true in a tank doesn’t necessarily stand in the wild. Photo inhibition at midday is necessary, the same is being found with corals.

Makes your tank interesting to see what species can adapt to an environment where maximal levels are available for the majority of the day. If there’s a stem plant that is easily photographed, daily pictures from the same spot would be cool.

That PAR is only getting higher the closer it gets to the light source. However, everything under the shield of new growth will benefit from the shading. Seems forgotten that plants change their environment. You can’t turn off the sun.
 
1000 PAR plus will do it. It’s cool to see the environmental adaptations packed so tightly. Amazonia type 1 and Solar RGB’s central (200 PAR) and you would see the same over 3 inches of growth on macrandra.
I am actually wondering if they won’t grow in the top 1/3 … or if they will look absolutely stunning. Or flower …
Initial plant growth has had their life line cut, white as snow. Up to you but would trim those bits off if it’s feasible, although can see against the scale of the soil it might be too tiny to get scissors on.
Scissors are giants compared to them, fingers also. If I had a team who would do it for me, it would be worth it - provided they didn’t disturb the substrate or roots.

Myself: I’ll start, my hand will slip or scissors will, the plant will get up rooted and we are 1 step forward 10 steps back (re anchoring stress etc). I’d probably get frustrated.

Knowing myself is in part why I automated water change. Provided I play the proactive game, I can just relax, enjoy the tank, and finger-thumb prune as needed to get plant forms and shapes I want.
Easier to do early on before new growth smothers it. Could just wait for it to decay and get jettisoned off… but if it gets tangled up you’ll have decaying organics right next to fresh growth, not ideal. Quick blast with a turkey baster at the one month mark? Knock it all off. Probably overkill as you’re doing the water changes.
It’s all correct I’d say from a waste-management perspective. If my daughter was a bit older, I’d go through it with her to be honest but right now it’s just me “doing” and can probably get away without sinking the time into it.

In ~ 1-2 months like you say, I think I’ll have enough growth, just waft my hand and get all those ghostly leaves airborne into the pump.

Have seen carpets of Cryptocoryne in the jungle in the Philippines getting blasted at noon. What holds as reasonably true in a tank doesn’t necessarily stand in the wild. Photo inhibition at midday is necessary, the same is being found with corals.
You know now I am wondering if photoinhibition does occur then in theory I don’t need co2 at some point during photo period … uh oh don’t make me turn it off 😂.
Makes your tank interesting to see what species can adapt to an environment where maximal levels are available for the majority of the day. If there’s a stem plant that is easily photographed, daily pictures from the same spot would be cool.
Been trying will catalogue best I can.
That PAR is only getting higher the closer it gets to the light source. However, everything under the shield of new growth will benefit from the shading. Seems forgotten that plants change their environment. You can’t turn off the sun.
Wonder what will be in the top 1/3 like I said - what’s your intuition Geoff? Death or beauty?

On individual shots: it’s very hard to get them because of the water, hardscape in my way lol, and my camera, and also user skills of course. But I am questioning: why aren’t they getting taller, then when we look, there are way more side shoots than I’d ever expect … and maybe others can say they have seen it this early but I haven’t.
1664012989485.jpeg

1664013040277.jpeg


It’s nearly at every single node. The only way I’ve done this is under high light (close to surface) and with EI. High light (close to surface) with low N/P didn’t work as well as EI did. Now, the substrate at the time was not this potent and flow was not this good … so perhaps nutrient (light, fert, co2) abundance and availability (summed over soil and column without issues of acquisition) is the key.

Side shoots = density
Early side shoots = staying petite/elegant
Red coloration = pretty

If this works … or when … grin.
 
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I am actually wondering if they won’t grow in the top 1/3 … or if they will look absolutely stunning. Or flower …

Well, you saw the UG tank. It eventually flowered underwater wholesale. The specifics of that tank are important; it’s a carnivorous plant, consistency, no stock, 24 hour co2, extremely simple water column.

Know we’re generalising, which is really nothing more than speculation, but the consistency of environment led to all growth being poured into flowers once the carpet balanced to its available food source. It hit a limit in availability, it was a consistent limit. The primary growth then became stalks, with flowers racing to the surface and the carpet became static.

Stimulate the carpet again by trimming, couple of weeks to recover the leaves, then stops growing leaves and starts flowering again. Stimulus and response.

Flowering can be the final death throes of a plant, but you can ‘cycle’ that process so it never gets there. Most would first contact this personally growing Murdannia keisak, it’s an annual and fast growing. Once it flowers above the surface it dies back. You have to continually trim to prevent the outcome.

Wonder what will be in the top 1/3 like I said - what’s your intuition Geoff? Death or beauty?

If we knew it wouldn’t be worth doing right? Looking for species to species differences that are specific to your setup. Macrandra is an excellent indicator plant so should offer forewarning due to its sensitivity to minor changes and ability to adapt.

A lot hinges on whether you want to add stock, or forgo adding them for half a year so you can play. No stock, you can pump co2 in as needed if you start spotting inconsistent/deformed growth the closer you get to the light sources. Mature root system at this point may negate this somewhat.

Would the top third enjoy co2 mist or is it mostly dissolved by the time it comes out of the outflow?

A PAR meter would be a great asset if you can borrow one. Saves the speculation. The intersection of all four light units overlapping in the top third should be pretty dramatic.

Get the impression folks expect fast growth under these conditions, when I would predict the opposite. You’ll get very tight growth between nodes with small leaves that take a long time to grow vertically. Would have doubled the initial planting on this basis but would be reticent to add plants that haven’t gone through the initial adaptions now. Eye on the ball, no mistakes, no unnecessary changes or introductions and we’ll see.

PS Death or beauty..? would be a really cool journal name 😎
 
Well, you saw the UG tank. It eventually flowered underwater wholesale. The specifics of that tank are important; it’s a carnivorous plant, consistency, no stock, 24 hour co2, extremely simple water column.

Know we’re generalising, which is really nothing more than speculation, but the consistency of environment led to all growth being poured into flowers once the carpet balanced to its available food source. It hit a limit in availability, it was a consistent limit. The primary growth then became stalks, with flowers racing to the surface and the carpet became static.

Stimulate the carpet again by trimming, couple of weeks to recover the leaves, then stops growing leaves and starts flowering again. Stimulus and response.

Flowering can be the final death throes of a plant, but you can ‘cycle’ that process so it never gets there. Most would first contact this personally growing Murdannia keisak, it’s an annual and fast growing. Once it flowers above the surface it dies back. You have to continually trim to prevent the outcome.
Thanks for this - I did notice this with Anubias, buce, and also when the stellatus and aromatica broke the surface. And Rotala (many species) actually.
If we knew it wouldn’t be worth doing right? Looking for species to species differences that are specific to your setup. Macrandra is an excellent indicator plant so should offer forewarning due to its sensitivity to minor changes and ability to adapt.
Soooo … the gigs up. I knew that if I didn’t include at least Macrandra in this, the plant species would be to “easy” and a real critique of the entire process, so I had to splash a toughy in there.

It will basically live in anything but it will be ugly. Tough to make it thrive … I’ll dig some photos of macrandras I took at some point in the previous scapes. You can even see I’m honest shots, single stems generally stunted.

It’s easy to trim 1 out of 8 stems away before a photo … I really respect barr (and yourself for the honest journals you post … the biscuits for one!) for that - he’s shared photos before where 1 out of 10 stems is stunted … it’s partially the name of the game especially if the bushes are dense. It’s easy to get a 1 off perfect … a bush on the other hand will always (at least in my experience) have a stunt here or there. Unless you time the shot perfectly …
A lot hinges on whether you want to add stock, or forgo adding them for half a year so you can play. No stock, you can pump co2 in as needed if you start spotting inconsistent/deformed growth the closer you get to the light sources. Mature root system at this point may negate this somewhat.
I think this speaks a bit to my above comments.
Would the top third enjoy co2 mist or is it mostly dissolved by the time it comes out of the outflow?
Mist. Most places get some mist as is.
A PAR meter would be a great asset if you can borrow one. Saves the speculation. The intersection of all four light units overlapping in the top third should be pretty dramatic.
No one has one locally - I’d have to buy. I might.
Get the impression folks expect fast growth under these conditions, when I would predict the opposite. You’ll get very tight growth between nodes with small leaves that take a long time to grow vertically. Would have doubled the initial planting on this basis but would be reticent to add plants that haven’t gone through the initial adaptions now. Eye on the ball, no mistakes, no unnecessary changes or introductions and we’ll see.
That is exactly what we are seeing!

Had the same intuition on plant mass but balance of being thrifty - what can I get away with. I know it’s slightly silly as we could do 1 stem … but also need to balance results and speed.
PS Death or beauty..? would be a really cool journal name 😎
Oooo let’s change it! Can we?
 
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Haven't a clue what's goin on here Josh but love the story🙂 Think Death or Beauty might be tempting fate but don't think you would be to bothered😂
Oh you know … just trying to grow plants :).

Thanks for coming on the ride with us!

In retrospect, maybe I’m trying to kill plants 😅😂.

Death or beauty is an excellent name!

But sheesh now it’s playing on my morale conscience.

Edit: upon reflection, my ultimate goal is to create the healthiest environment for plants and fish and fish keeper — and that’s the guide.

We’re ok! 😊
 
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And real life takes over … auto doser went off (I mean it’s not a big deal but not ideal) 3 hours before water changed so doubled up my dose (again no biggy) … and I almost forgot to water change this evening - and co2 tank dropping faster than I’d like … debating turning co2 down.

I’ll let this tank run (since I degassed some of it by accident) and replace it and then gauge consumption after that.
 
really not seeing any benefit to plant growth rates with the 20h.

All I see is my utility bill and co2 bill 😂.

Going to go back to 10h keep things back to status quo from day 1.

Going to look to turning co2 down over the next week. In a “perfect” world (can argue the following will be a wasteful to environment etc), where someone else filled my co2 tanks and delivered them, I’d just leave the thing running, but going to start dialing it in.
 
(can’t be changing tanks every week that’s rediculous).

What size tank have you got through in a week Josh?

I'm still impressed that you haven't got any GDA on the rocks etc - any thoughts on why? Could it be related to the super low pH that would presumably result from so much CO2?

Also, I may have missed it earlier on, but what are your current fert dosing targets?

On the plant pictures you've posted above, what plant is that - Macrandra Red? What do you think is causing the leaf curling?
 
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